National Guard called into Minneapolis

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Revnak

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I'm not sure what point you're making here.

Divisions being non-apparent to people doesn't change how those divisions exist.

Also, in a world where all those things were handled by separate departments (i.e. street patrol and riot police being two completely separate organizations), that would accomplish...what, in this context? If riot police are insufficient in number to deal with something, and they have to call in people from Street Patrol Inc., then SPI is still going to be undertrained for the task at hand, unless SPI already had riot patrol training as well, in which case I ask what the point was in breaking them up in the first place.

And "responsibilities to social workers." Well, which responsibilities are you talking about? If it's a round-about way of saying that more resources should go into social welfare, of helping people afflicted by poverty, then sure. I'm all for that. But that isn't the crux of the abolition argument, the abolition argument is that police should be disbanded entirely. And while social workers do a lot of good, I'm skeptical of their ability to deal with armed confrontation, highway patrol, terrorist actions, or whatnot.
That’s not the argument. If you want to argue with me, do that. As I said earlier, the Minneapolis police and their union are being absurdly resistant to change here, including attempting to fight to get the murderous officers that did this back on the force.
Further, if they aren’t trained to handle riots, they shouldn’t handle them, because right now we have cops driving straight into crowds with murderous intent. That’s a fucking problem.
 

Hawki

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That’s not the argument. If you want to argue with me, do that. As I said earlier, the Minneapolis police and their union are being absurdly resistant to change here, including attempting to fight to get the murderous officers that did this back on the force.
Further, if they aren’t trained to handle riots, they shouldn’t handle them, because right now we have cops driving straight into crowds with murderous intent. That’s a fucking problem.
I'm not arguing that any of that isn't a problem. I was expressing skepticism at the notion that disbanding the police is going to do more good than harm. Which isn't an academic discussion, because it's what Minneapolis has stated it will do, with the promise of replacing it with...something.

And look, let's be honest, Minneapolis doesn't exist in isolation. It isn't even confined to the US. So if the edict is that I'm to live in a world without police, I can't help but be skeptical that such a thing is going to make the world better.
 
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Agema

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I'm not arguing that any of that isn't a problem. I was expressing skepticism at the notion that disbanding the police is going to do more good than harm. Which isn't an academic discussion, because it's what Minneapolis has stated it will do, with the promise of replacing it with...something.
The UK disbanded the old Northern Irish police force (The Royal Ulster Constabulary) and reformed it as the Police Service of Northern Ireland in 2001, which has been a marked improvement in many ways. It's definitely doable to attempt to carry out large scale change.
 

Revnak

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I'm not arguing that any of that isn't a problem. I was expressing skepticism at the notion that disbanding the police is going to do more good than harm. Which isn't an academic discussion, because it's what Minneapolis has stated it will do, with the promise of replacing it with...something.

And look, let's be honest, Minneapolis doesn't exist in isolation. It isn't even confined to the US. So if the edict is that I'm to live in a world without police, I can't help but be skeptical that such a thing is going to make the world better.
Places have disbanded their police force to form different solutions before, typically a new police force. I do think in this case the emphasis will be put on creating a generally disarmed force with more training for their intended responsibilities and more specific divisions. Many of the responsibilities will be moved to social workers, such as handling outbursts from the mentally ill. Given the current scenario I would recommend a dillineation between detectives, traffic enforcement, emergency response, and law enforcement, but I’m not too confident on that. At the very least create separate groups for tasks that require weapons and tasks that don’t.
 
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Trunkage

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So, just to clear things up. There would be a transition period where the disbanned group would stay on until the new police take over?
 

Revnak

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Welp. What a coincidence.
Edit- wtf?
 
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So, just to clear things up. There would be a transition period where the disbanned group would stay on until the new police take over?
I'd guess that if they have a strong union as suggested in the media, they'll just go on strike or work to rule or something like that. I can't see police officers risking their lives facing down rioters if they know the police department is going to be disbanded.
 
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tstorm823

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The UK disbanded the old Northern Irish police force (The Royal Ulster Constabulary) and reformed it as the Police Service of Northern Ireland in 2001, which has been a marked improvement in many ways. It's definitely doable to attempt to carry out large scale change.
Ok, but that's replacing the police with police. If (or rather when) Minneapolis reorganizes the police force under a different name and leadership, the people who wanted the police gone are just gonna come back to light more things on fire. I'm pretty sure the primary beneficiaries of this vote by the city counsel are the Minneapolis area U-Hauls as a bunch of people already on edge make the decision to get the hell out of Dodge.

Unless, of course, they ironically move to Dodge City, Kansas.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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The problem with these kinds of videos though is they never really hit where and to whom they most need to: people in power, with power over others.
 

Eacaraxe

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I've seen this argument come up before, how a lot of police time is spent on stuff like tickets, speeding, etc. Okay, and? If I want to park somewhere that says no parking, but live in a world where there's no-one around to write me a ticket, rest assured that I'm far more likely to park.
Golly gee, it's almost as if the overwhelming majority of vehicle- and transportation-related citations don't actually penalize citizens engaged in reckless or risky behavior, but rather generate revenue for municipal, county, or state governments by way of needless and often excessive fines and fees.

If you want to reserve the police for the latter, and replace the former with something else, then okay, but you're basically having people doing the same job under a different name.
Hint: the job isn't the problem. The problem is the job provides qualified immunity while entailing no duty to protect, while giving workers the prerogative to employ force up to and including to kill, not only absent adequate oversight but with the active protection of supervision, management, and labor organization. While carrying a core presumption of guilt in a justice system built to presume innocence, and empowered by woefully inadequate, and in many cases outright toxic, training curricula.

And look, I don't have a problem with that per se, but that's not what some people are calling for. There's calls for the complete disbandment of police. And I'm skeptical of such a thing working. Looking at the US for instance, deaths at the hands of police are absolutely dwarfed by firearm deaths by civilians.
This is disingenuous at best, considering less than a third of firearm-related deaths in the US are actually murders or non-negligent manslaughters. Two-thirds of firearm-related deaths are suicides.

Guess what firearm-related death in sum (i.e. accidental, suicide, or not), violent crime rate in sum (i.e. involving a firearm or not), and suicide in sum (i.e. again involving a firearm) have in common? They most strongly correlate to Gini coefficient. Why indeed, it does rather seem the case income inequality is the underlying root cause between each and every one of those problems, and the only reason a society might "need" greater, stricter, harsher, and therefore more violent, policing is to quell unrest stemming from socioeconomic inequality.
 

MrCalavera

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The UK disbanded the old Northern Irish police force (The Royal Ulster Constabulary) and reformed it as the Police Service of Northern Ireland in 2001, which has been a marked improvement in many ways. It's definitely doable to attempt to carry out large scale change.
Or if you want an example on the american soil, albeit on smaller scale, Camden NJ and their remodeling of the town's police force.

Ok, but that's replacing the police with police.
Which would be a dealbreaker if all protesters were in agreement the only way to improve things is outright abolishing all police force now and forever.

They aren't.
If (or rather when) Minneapolis reorganizes the police force under a different name and leadership, the people who wanted the police gone are just gonna come back to light more things on fire.
Not in those numbers.
 
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Agema

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Ok, but that's replacing the police with police. If (or rather when) Minneapolis reorganizes the police force under a different name and leadership, the people who wanted the police gone are just gonna come back to light more things on fire.
The trick is not to just reconstitute the police force under a different name and leadership. Overhaul its ethos, remit, organisation, accountability, etc., and if necessary a decent chunk of its staff, too. A lot of serving officers would surely continue in the new organistion, but there's the opportunity to clear out a lot of the less constructive ones and replace them with officers aligned to a new program. Although I think an extreme shake-up can work on a psychological level to jolt people who might be stuck in their ways into new ways of thinking.
 

tstorm823

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The trick is not to just reconstitute the police force under a different name and leadership. Overhaul its ethos, remit, organisation, accountability, etc., and if necessary a decent chunk of its staff, too. A lot of serving officers would surely continue in the new organistion, but there's the opportunity to clear out a lot of the less constructive ones and replace them with officers aligned to a new program. Although I think an extreme shake-up can work on a psychological level to jolt people who might be stuck in their ways into new ways of thinking.
I don't think most people are appreciating the philosophical divide between themselves and a lot of the "thought leaders" about at the moment. Like, the Democrats are unveiling the Justice in Policing Act of 2020 (announcement here if you'd like to see an eloquent statement of intent before a rambling, incoherent mess of Nancy Pelosi), but it's like they aren't actually listening to what people are saying. Mind you, based on the summary I've seen, it actually looks pretty good. I have not yet found a deliberate poison pill in here, they may actually want to pass this bill. And if I'd consider it, they can probably get it through the Senate, which is actually sort of a dangerous game the Democrats are playing since that would likely mean Donald Trump gets his name on not just prison reform but also police reform, and people might notice he's not the obstruction they claim he is. Anyway, I'm getting distracted.

My point is, the first 10 seconds of that video are as follows: "Black communities have sadly been marching for over 100 years against police abuse, but for the police to protect and serve our communities like they do elsewhere." - Rep. Karen Bass, Chairwoman of the Congressional Black Caucus. That doesn't go with "ACAB". That doesn't go with "defund the police". What you're suggesting is wonderful and reasonable, what the Democrats are suggesting is also good, but I've been arguing with people here and elsewhere for the last week who reject in no uncertain terms the idea of police entirely, because they believe in the virtue of anarchy and/or because they believe police are just a defense of systemic oppression. And there is no doubt that the Minneapolis City Council is aware of these people, or else they'd say what they actually intend to change rather than phrase it the way they did. Claiming they'll "disband the police" is entirely to placate the extreme voices that are dominating the airwaves (and lighting buildings on fire).
 

Specter Von Baren

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Or if you want an example on the american soil, albeit on smaller scale, Camden NJ and their remodeling of the town's police force.

Which would be a dealbreaker if all protesters were in agreement the only way to improve things is outright abolishing all police force now and forever.

They aren't.

Not in those numbers.
That article also says this.

Ames Grawert, the Brennan Justice Center’s counsel, voices a similar concern. “It’s easy to extrapolate from a single year of data to a trend, but that’s not always true,” he said. “Cities big and small both experience normal fluctuations in crime rates over the years.”

That might be the case with Camden’s homicide drop, which, while encouraging, has hardly transformed the city’s overall numbers. “It’s progress, it’s not success,” Thomson said. “We still have extreme challenges that keep us up at night and spring us out of bed in the morning.”

Indeed, Camden’s violent crime rate in 2017 remained dire enough to place the city at number four on Neighborhood Scout’s annual list of America’s most dangerous cities. The number of nonfatal shooting hit incidents has dropped 45 percent since 2012—but is back up in 2017 from last year’s levels. Meanwhile, aggravated assaults with a firearm have gotten more frequent in the past three years.

The numbers themselves can be potentially misleading: Homicide rates, for example, aren’t necessarily a complete measure of urban violence. Just because fewer people are dying from gunshot wounds doesn’t mean fewer people are getting shot: It could also mean they’re getting better treatment, faster. One of Thomson’s Camden policies, nicknamed “Scoop and Go,” may be at work here, which mandates officers to personally drive victims to the hospital if ambulance wait times are too long. That saves lives, without really addressing the source of the violence itself. (Another possible factor: More victims are just getting to the hospital faster by calling an Uber.)

Criminal justice experts also warn against jumping to conclusions regarding causation. “I think people are very quick to look for a singular explanation, and so a lot of people have blamed”—or thanked—“policing reforms, but I don’t think it’s that simple,” said the Brennan Center’s Chettiar.

Goff agrees. The national experiment in community policing is young, and the available data pool is small. “We just don’t have good data on how changes in policing produce changes in these kinds of outcomes,” he said. “[W]hat we haven’t had until now is a comprehensive test of all that in one place—Camden allows for an anecdote about that.”
On another note, I think part of the problem with the discussion here is the assumption everyone is coming into it with, whatever your assumption on why this is happening is informs what you think the solution should be.
 

Revnak

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So, the police department they’re disbanding has been slashing the tires of medical workers, destroying street clinics, shooting people in the face with rubber bullets, etc, and rather than believing that maybe it’s time to fundamentally rethink how Minneapolis does criminal justice y’all just wanna argue with anarchist ideologues who aren’t even in this thread?
 

Dalisclock

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So, the police department they’re disbanding has been slashing the tires of medical workers, destroying street clinics, shooting people in the face with rubber bullets, etc, and rather than believing that maybe it’s time to fundamentally rethink how Minneapolis does criminal justice y’all just wanna argue with anarchist ideologues who aren’t even in this thread?
Strawmen are easy to knock down. They don't even fight back.

Edit: I mean, fuck, we've got milita-types doing "Antifa" patrols in tiny towns and then declaring victory when nothing happens. Not that those numbnuts have any clue what an antifa looks like or why they'd come out the middle of nowhere to loot the local general store. Something Something scary buses.

 
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BrawlMan

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The Rogue Wolf

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Edit: I mean, fuck, we've got milita-types doing "Antifa" patrols in tiny towns and then declaring victory when nothing happens.

In that case, they did a great job of fending off Bigfoot, the chupacabra and the Martian invasion fleet, too.
 

BrawlMan

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What do you mean "phonies"? People who are pretending to be something, but aren't?
Yes.

What is Candace Owens pretending to be, exactly?
Watch the video (highly recommended). Read the link, or type her name in to google.

Short version: she's a schemer. She's a sellout that does care for anyone, but her self or pleasing racists conversatives. The definition of a b@tch in a boxstand.
 
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