National Guard called into Minneapolis

[Dwarvenhobble]

I guarantee that more people have heard of Edward Colston and researched his past as a result of his statue coming down than ever would have from his statue sitting there. The act of pulling it down has garnered it national attention and coverage.

For the time being until he is forgotten.

Also the more statues it happens to the more apathy will kick in and the less people will care of the names or their deeds and the less attention it will get so it's a self defeating strategy.

After all, thousands of historic figures don't have statues at all. Is their lack of a statue a cause for concern?! Should we putting up statues of every historic figure who doesn't have one, to make sure random passers-by have something to pique their interest?

I mean Plaques have been going up plenty of places to remember people too

They grafitti'd his statue with the words, "was a racist", if I'm not mistaken. Won't that prompt people to research his racism on the internet?

It did. Turns out he later changed his tune according to the BBC so people were wrong unless at any point in history if some-one said something people object to even if they admitted to being wrong later we should condemn them for it and there is no redemption. Their deeds mean nothing because at one point in the past they said something disagreeable......

Nobody is dictating to J.K. Rowling how to identify as a woman. The only people whose identity is being questioned and denied by others in this instance are transwomen.

The existance of transwomen does not constitute a dictation to anyone else.

Ok this is a big complex issue with lots of parts to it.

TLDR version:

J.K. Rowling isn't 100% right but she's closer to right than a lot of the activists opposing her.

Part of the argument comes down to athletics where mtf trans athletes would have an advantage over born female athletes.

It's a big deal in athletics such an issue that despite not being trans a female athlete with intersex chromosomes has faced extra regulations and restrctions on her because of the fact she has such an insurmountable advantage.

Caster Semenya loses landmark legal case against IAAF over testosterone levels

The South African 800m Olympic champion Caster Semenya is considering an appeal after losing her landmark legal case against athletics’ governing body, the IAAF, in a decision that could end her career as an elite athlete

www.theguardian.com

Also before anyone says "That's not fair" well in the name of fairness special swimsuits are now banned in the Olympics due to how much of an advantage hey gave.

BBC SPORT | Other sport... | Swimming | Hi-tech suits banned from January

news.bbc.co.uk

J.K.s objections come down to the idea of a self identification bill meaning anyone who claims to be something is and cannot be challenged which is in stark contract to the previous bill which required evidence of "Social transitioning" to count. So under the new rules it could in theory have meant a 6'9 300 lb dude with a bald head and beard could go into the womens toilets and if challenged reply "I'm a woman" and anything done beyond that to say he wasn't allowed or eject him would be considered an act of discrimination which could be punished in the courts. At present the rules would be the dude would at least have had to try and have a shave and look a bit more feminine to be allowed.

Well, sure. But one might imagine that the defensiveness is a result of decades of prejudice, violent, legal and otherwise. Which leads me to afford it more understanding than Rowling's position, which comes solely from a personal preoccupation.

See the issue is you have "activists" like Jessica Yaniv going round........ and causing chaos with lets say people suspecting they either just want to cause trouble or see a way to get attention and or financial gain even if it's just protection money to make them go away.

 

[Silvanus]

For the time being until he is forgotten.

Also the more statues it happens to the more apathy will kick in and the less people will care of the names or their deeds and the less attention it will get so it's a self defeating strategy.

I hate to tell you this, but statues do not have a noticeable impact on apathy towards history. Education does.

If statues did have this huge impact you're ascribing to them, then it would only be felt in the immediate vicinity of the statue. Nobody outside of a tiny area of Bristol would feel it.

It did. Turns out he later changed his tune according to the BBC so people were wrong unless at any point in history if some-one said something people object to even if they admitted to being wrong later we should condemn them for it and there is no redemption. Their deeds mean nothing because at one point in the past they said something disagreeable......

When did I ever imply anything about redemption or the lack thereof? He might have changed his mind at some point; that surely means we should still study the racist part of his career. His complicity in famine, his hatred for Indian independence, all of that.

And if, as you say, seeing stuff on a statue has a huge impact on awareness because it prompts people to look it up, then the graffiti will too.

Ok this is a big complex issue with lots of parts to it.

TLDR version:

J.K. Rowling isn't 100% right but she's closer to right than a lot of the activists opposing her.

Part of the argument comes down to athletics where mtf trans athletes would have an advantage over born female athletes.

It's a big deal in athletics such an issue that despite not being trans a female athlete with intersex chromosomes has faced extra regulations and restrctions on her because of the fact she has such an insurmountable advantage.

J.K. Rowling never once mentioned athletes or athletics in the essay that sparked all this. That's not what she was talking about.

J.K.s objections come down to the idea of a self identification bill meaning anyone who claims to be something is and cannot be challenged which is in stark contract to the previous bill which required evidence of "Social transitioning" to count. So under the new rules it could in theory have meant a 6'9 300 lb dude with a bald head and beard could go into the womens toilets and if challenged reply "I'm a woman" and anything done beyond that to say he wasn't allowed or eject him would be considered an act of discrimination which could be punished in the courts. At present the rules would be the dude would at least have had to try and have a shave and look a bit more feminine to be allowed.

No, that's not how the law stands. The Trump administration has essentially deferred the decision to the States on "bathroom bills", but as far as I'm aware no state has any stipulations on appearance and grooming.

This scenario-- of the "6'9" 300ib dude" -- has never happened; nobody has been "punished in the courts" for merely objecting. Functional countries don't base laws around absurd hypotheticals.

See the issue is you have "activists" like Jessica Yaniv going round........ and causing chaos with lets say people suspecting they either just want to cause trouble or see a way to get attention and or financial gain even if it's just protection money to make them go away.

"Causing chaos"? The court quite easily dismissed Yaniv's case, because it was based around specific body parts, and thus wasn't covered by anti-discrimination law as it already stands. What "chaos"?

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

New update from the actual protests etc.

Chop has allegedly asked all white allies to leave the Zone for today so minorities can celebrate Juneteeth

 

[Hawki]

Sure...only she's writing a fictional work, taking inspiration from people who wanted certain groups not to exist, and those certain groups don't exist in her work. Which is a bit of an oopsie.

I'm not seeing the issue here.

This can apply to pretty much anything, but let's keep it to the groups described. In Harry Potter, Death Eaters = Nazis, Mudbloods = Jews. Neither Nazis or Jews appear or are referenced. The allegory functions as all good allagories should, able to be understood in the context of the work, with further meaning derived if you consider it in the historical context. If you have not!Nazis in a work and don't reference actual Nazis, then stuff like Star Wars becomes problematic. If you have not!Jews and don't have Jews in your work, then while less stuff comes to mind, stuff like The Wind on Fire arguably becomes problematic. If that's the standard being used, then pretty much any work of fiction that uses allagory becomes problematic.

And if you're using the argument that Harry Potter takes place in our world, then okay, sure, but I can still extend this principle. Chronicles of Narnia borrows from Christian mythology, but has no actual (confirmed) Christians. His Dark Materials starts off with the Magisterium (allegory for the Catholic Church), and Gyptians (the equivalent of Roma/Gypsies) in a parallel universe. So is this problematic? Or does it become problematic when the series enters our world, and we get actual references to the Catholic Church, but no references to actual Roma?

True, but then she didn't bring religion up. Well, excepting that the Christian witch hunts never hurt anyone, and one witch would let herself be fake murdered cause she was into that, which also is a bit of an oopsie.

True, but then she didn't bring religion up. Well, excepting that the Christian witch hunts never hurt anyone, and one witch would let herself be fake murdered cause she was into that, which also is a bit of an oopsie.

Except that isn't true.

The witch hunts you mentioned aren't stated to have never hurt anyone, only that on the rare occasion a witch or wizard was captured, it wasn't much good. We can put two and two together and understand that innocents (Muggles) were still burnt. And it's elaborated on later that young wizards/witches were indeed burnt, because they couldn't save themselves. It's established in-universe that a lot of anti-Muggle prejudice comes from this era.

Well, the X-men were originally about the civil rights movement (and some LGBT rights stuff thrown in), but the films are about almost all white and all straight people (as an aside, while there's absolutely no LGBT people in the films, there's quite a few that worked on it). Hell, I'd not be exaggerating too much to sum some of them up as Aryan Ubermenches fight an evil Jew trying to destroy the world. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if they didn't keep blathering about how wonderful diversity is while doing it. In Dark Phoenix, Xavier gives a speech to a room full of (mostly white) people saying that no kid will grow up discriminated against for being different now that mutants are accepted, in the year 1992. Again, something better not to do, but I still watch the films. Dark Phoenix was rubbish for other reasons, though.

I've always felt that the X-Men were a pretty poor stand-in for Civil Rights. It never even occurred to me at all until I stumbled across the information. Like, mutants in the setting are superhuman, and humans being afraid of them isn't without due cause, even without people like Magneto. If the X-Men stand in for minorities, then if anything, it's saying that you SHOULD be afraid of minorities, because they've got all these superpowers and could probably drive you to extinction if they really wanted to.

Also, was Magneto Jewish from the outset, or was that a new addition? I mean, I think this actually works in the movies, in that Magneto saw the death camps, and kind of has Nazi ideology himself (at least in the movies), but that's less an inditement on his Jewishness, and more an inditement on hate. Hate breeds hate, and all that.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I hate to tell you this, but statues do not have a noticeable impact on apathy towards history. Education does.

If statues did have this huge impact you're ascribing to them, then it would only be felt in the immediate vicinity of the statue. Nobody outside of a tiny area of Bristol would feel it.

And what impact does he have outside of Bristol really?
That's build on the back of his acts in places

When did I ever imply anything about redemption or the lack thereof? He might have changed his mind at some point; that surely means we should still study the racist part of his career. His complicity in famine, his hatred for Indian independence, all of that.

And if, as you say, seeing stuff on a statue has a huge impact on awareness because it prompts people to look it up, then the graffiti will too.

Well if people are calling him racist when he acknowledged his views were wrong later it isn't caring about his full actual history just one part of it and using that part to condemn or call for his statues removal. Thus any slip up condemns a person for live and even after it. Also the famine argument the Historians the BBC had on said it wasn't likely intentional actions on his part but an unfortunate effect of trying to work supply lines to the front at the time.

J.K. Rowling never once mentioned athletes or athletics in the essay that sparked all this. That's not what she was talking about.


No, that's not how the law stands. The Trump administration has essentially deferred the decision to the States on "bathroom bills", but as far as I'm aware no state has any stipulations on appearance and grooming.

This scenario-- of the "6'9" 300ib dude" -- has never happened; nobody has been "punished in the courts" for merely objecting. Functional countries don't base laws around absurd hypotheticals.



"Causing chaos"? The court quite easily dismissed Yaniv's case, because it was based around specific body parts, and thus wasn't covered by anti-discrimination law as it already stands. What "chaos"?

Just an FYI I've started a new thread for all the J.K. Rowling stuff as it's more of a separate topic I feel.

The "Cancellation" of J.K. Rowling

This came up in another thread and has developed legs in there so to try and keep that one from going off topic more and seeing as people seem to want to talk about it I thought'd I'd set up this thread (probably against my better judgement) for talking about this. The issue stems from two main...

forums.escapistmagazine.com

If you want I can address this post of yours there.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

New update from the actual protests etc.

Chop has allegedly asked all white allies to leave the Zone for today so minorities can celebrate Juneteeth

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

More Chop news



Chop's committee have investigated the shootings that took place there recently (one fatal one non fatal) and the investigation so far has determined they have no information on a suspect or motive or evidence but believe the suspect's identity and motives to be not the main concern thus the committee has determined White Supremacists are responsible for the shooting because all crime is a result of capitalism, according to the committee.

Also all Superheros groups are now banned from entry into Chop..... not really.....however superhero groups can apply to become part of the Chop security forces maintaining the border security.

 

[Houseman]

Superhero groups?

You mean like, people dressing up as Batman and Power Rangers being vigilantes?

 

[Revnak]

More Chop news



Chop's committee have investigated the shootings that took place there recently (one fatal one non fatal) and the investigation so far has determined they have no information on a suspect or motive or evidence but believe the suspect's identity and motives to be not the main concern thus the committee has determined White Supremacists are responsible for the shooting because all crime is a result of capitalism, according to the committee.

Also all Superheros groups are now banned from entry into Chop..... not really.....however superhero groups can apply to become part of the Chop security forces maintaining the border security.

That account is fake as hell. No anarchists or anti-police protesters are sympathetic to the Chinese government regarding Hong Kong. Stop falling for fake accounts.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

That account is fake as hell. No anarchists or anti-police protesters are sympathetic to the Chinese government regarding Hong Kong. Stop falling for fake accounts.

My apologies then. However Poe's law is in permanent effect after the Chop Coupe we don't really know who is in control it could be the Tankies which would make such tweets make sense.

 

[Revnak]

My apologies then. However Poe's law is in permanent effect after the Chop Coupe we don't really know who is in control it could be the Tankies which would make such tweets make sense.

IT IS IN EFFECT BECAUSE YOU KEEP FALLING FOR FAKE ACCOUNTS AND ARE GETTING MOST OF YOUR INFO FROM A JOKE ACCOUNT

 

[Trunkage]

IT IS IN EFFECT BECAUSE YOU KEEP FALLING FOR FAKE ACCOUNTS AND ARE GETTING MOST OF YOUR INFO FROM A JOKE ACCOUNT

I mean, it’s funny. Dwarvenhobble is claiming that the OK symbol is just a joke. But thinks everything they see on Twitter cannot be a joke.

 

[Houseman]

What's the real CHOP twitter account?
Or is it like antifa where anyone who says they're antifa is a part of it, and nobody can prove otherwise?

This seems like a No True Scotsman.

Also on the subject of statues and museums, it seems like not even that statues on museum property are safe:

 

[Revnak]

What's the real CHOP twitter account?
Or is it like antifa where anyone who says they're antifa is a part of it, and nobody can prove otherwise?

This seems like a No True Scotsman.

Also on the subject of statues and museums, it seems like not even that statues on museum property are safe:

In all likelihood there isn’t and will not be one because they’re not an organization they’re just dudes in a place.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

What's the real CHOP twitter account?
Or is it like antifa where anyone who says they're antifa is a part of it, and nobody can prove otherwise?

This seems like a No True Scotsman.

Also on the subject of statues and museums, it seems like not even that statues on museum property are safe:

....................................

 

[Houseman]

In all likelihood there isn’t and will not be one because they’re not an organization they’re just dudes in a place.

So, then, on what basis can you say that this account is a fake/joke account? Because they've expressed a viewpoint that you don't think that a member of CHOP should have?

 

[Zeke davis]

What's the real CHOP twitter account?
Or is it like antifa where anyone who says they're antifa is a part of it, and nobody can prove otherwise?

This seems like a No True Scotsman.

Also on the subject of statues and museums, it seems like not even that statues on museum property are safe:

I advise you

What's the real CHOP twitter account?
Or is it like antifa where anyone who says they're antifa is a part of it, and nobody can prove otherwise?

This seems like a No True Scotsman.

Also on the subject of statues and museums, it seems like not even that statues on museum property are safe:

For context the museum isn't blaming the man but thinks the statue is shite with placing tokens below Teddy Roosevelt. They have a descendant framing it as the opposite of what His ancestor believed in.

Not your typical case in other words.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

In all likelihood there isn’t and will not be one because they’re not an organization they’re just dudes in a place.

They supposedly do have a council so they must have some kind of organisation.

Hell they have a boarder wall and security.

 

[Revnak]

So, then, on what basis can you say that this account is a fake/joke account? Because they've expressed a viewpoint that you don't think that a member of CHOP should have?

Because it’s branded itself the official twitter account of CHOP/CHAZ, which, as I just said, probably doesn’t and won’t exist. I used that other argument because I doubted you or Dwarf would believe CHOP/CHAZ wouldn’t have an official twitter.

 

[Revnak]

They supposedly do have a council so they must have some kind of organisation.

Hell they have a boarder wall and security.

Not much of one, seems to be pretty oriented around direct democracy.
Volunteer irregulars doesn’t imply organization.