New Call of Duty game let's players be Non-binary

Casual Shinji

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That might be the case, but that isn't inherently bad representation. It's a trans character being included into the story in a believable way that make sense for the context of what that story is about.
Wait, didn't Rin, like, have amnesia, and just mysteriously show up out of nowhere? I don't know if I'd call that believable, but even then there was this whole set-up to Rin and the mystery behind her. And then you find out *gasp* she has a penis, which presents her being trans (if she was in fact trans) as this eerie mystery that the audience should be shocked to find out about.

Rin in general felt super crowbarred in, like this very obvious extra content. She was also the typical demure, waifu character.
 

CriticalGaming

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Wait, didn't Rin, like, have amnesia, and just mysteriously show up out of nowhere? I don't know if I'd call that believable, but even then there was this whole set-up to Rin and the mystery behind her. And then you find out *gasp* she has a penis, which presents her being trans (if she was in fact trans) as this eerie mystery that the audience should be shocked to find out about.

Rin in general felt super crowbarred in, like this very obvious extra content. She was also the typical demure, waifu character.
gonna be honest, I didn't play Catherine, so I have no clue. But I've heard from other people that the story was good and enjoyable. Which included Rin, though she was kind of a comic-relief throwaway character, she at least was there. They could have just as easily not done it at all. And then you'd have nothing which is also a complaint.
 

Iron

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Ask for representation for 0.2% of the population, get them in 0.2% of video-games. Seems legit.
 

CriticalGaming

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Ask for representation for 0.2% of the population, get them in 0.2% of video-games. Seems legit.
Not to mention that you could roleplay your XYZ gender in a lot of games with character customization. Saint's Row 3 and 4 let you swap to whatever sex you wanted on a whim. The New Assassin's Creed also lets you jump between boy and girl with a couple of button presses.

Games like Dark Souls and the new Demon's Souls also allow you to make a purple haired She/He thing if you want.

So it's not like you couldn't play your prefered pronouns in games before. These activist groups just want the LBGTQP+ representation announced from the rooftops with a named NPC, who's dialog in game very very very CLEARLY states how Gay or how much of a transgender they are so that the player can make NO mistake that this they/them NPC is clearly not a he/she.

Or something. Who fucking knows anymore.

But hey, there is a menu option that you can pick to make you feel better about it in CoD if you want.
 

Xprimentyl

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Yet another multi-page thread debating the merits of an option... Some folks need to play more Goat Simulator to jar you back into the realization that video games are escapism. Games (operative word) are for everyone, why is making them for ANYONE even an issue worth discussing?
 
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Iron

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Not to mention that you could roleplay your XYZ gender in a lot of games with character customization. Saint's Row 3 and 4 let you swap to whatever sex you wanted on a whim. The New Assassin's Creed also lets you jump between boy and girl with a couple of button presses.

Games like Dark Souls and the new Demon's Souls also allow you to make a purple haired She/He thing if you want.

So it's not like you couldn't play your prefered pronouns in games before. These activist groups just want the LBGTQP+ representation announced from the rooftops with a named NPC, who's dialog in game very very very CLEARLY states how Gay or how much of a transgender they are so that the player can make NO mistake that this they/them NPC is clearly not a he/she.

Or something. Who fucking knows anymore.

But hey, there is a menu option that you can pick to make you feel better about it in CoD if you want.
one thing I don't understand about including transgenders into the LGB community is this: In Iran, homosexuals are given the opportunity to change their gender into women, so they could continue to love men as women. Why then, would homosexuals, and lesbians for that matter, wouldn't find it alarming that they could be "corrected" into the opposite gender and continue to love their now opposite sex. That is, transsexualism is the solution for homosexuality (At least, in Iran).
 

Houseman

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Yet another multi-page thread debating the merits of an option... Some folks need to play more Goat Simulator to jar you back into the realization that video games are escapism. Games (operative word) are for everyone, why is making them for ANYONE even an issue worth discussing?
Read the thread and find out.
 

Trunkage

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one thing I don't understand about including transgenders into the LGB community is this: In Iran, homosexuals are given the opportunity to change their gender into women, so they could continue to love men as women. Why then, would homosexuals, and lesbians for that matter, wouldn't find it alarming that they could be "corrected" into the opposite gender and continue to love their now opposite sex. That is, transsexualism is the solution for homosexuality (At least, in Iran).
Maybe, this may shock you, the LBGT community is not a monolith. It’s not their defining characteristic. Many of them would probably be conservatives if conservatism or religious groups didnt exclude them so much.

And the Iran issue you brought up is probably a solution to the laws they have in Iran. Maybe the traditions of Muslims. It’s like Albanian women being declared men under certain circumstances
 

Iron

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Maybe, this may shock you, the LBGT community is not a monolith. It’s not their defining characteristic. Many of them would probably be conservatives if conservatism or religious groups didnt exclude them so much.

And the Iran issue you brought up is probably a solution to the laws they have in Iran. Maybe the traditions of Muslims. It’s like Albanian women being declared men under certain circumstances
A lot of people from the LGBT community seem to remind me that their sexuality is their defining feature when they parade naked every year in my city.
 

Xprimentyl

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Read the thread and find out.
I would if an option in a video game was a substantive enough subject to merit reading 10 pages of subjective opinion, but I guarantee you, it's not. Anyone taking issue with it has bigger issues that a CoD game can't (and shouldn't have to) correct. That, or they're trolling an unpopular opinion for the lolz, but thankfully, we don't know anyone like that, do we?
 

Trunkage

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A lot of people from the LGBT community seem to remind me that their sexuality is their defining feature when they parade naked every year in my city.
It is for that day. Or however long your Madi Gras goes on in your city. I think mine has a week but the parade is only for one day.

What do you think all those people do for the rest of the year? Hide in a cave?
 

CriticalGaming

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What do you think all those people do for the rest of the year? Hide in a cave?
i wish I could hide in a cave all year. I'd only come out for holidays that involve food but don't involve visiting family......like Taco Tuesdays.
 
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Terminal Blue

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So if people arent supposed to try and be inclusive then wtf do people want.
There are different ways of trying to be inclusive. All I'm saying is that some of the things people do in the name of trans inclusion seem like they're designed more to make cis people feel comfortable than to make trans and especially non-binary people feel comfortable.

If you're the only trans person in a given space, and because you're there everyone drops everything and has to go around the room stating their pronouns, who is the actual beneficiary? Who is that actually for? How do you think that is supposed to make you feel included?

This constant shifting of the goalposts and this crazy idea that everyone's preferred manner of approach is personal and different to each individual is simply insanity.
But it is personal and different to each individual. That's how individuals work.

Trans people are not a collective puzzle to be solved by figuring out the correct button combinations.

Poor gay, bi, and lesbian folks get lumped together with radical trans, ????, and fluid people. Which makes no sense because those are obviously different things.
Do you know why they're lumped together?

Why is this 9 pages of bullshit!?
Because you just referred to being trans as "gender confusion".

You wanna talk about how nothing is good enough. That's not good enough. Improve that. No amount of using the correct pronouns (which only cis people think is any kind of achievement) is going to matter if you go around describing trans people as having "gender confusion".
 

CriticalGaming

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If you're the only trans person in a given space, and because you're there everyone drops everything and has to go around the room stating their pronouns, who is the actual beneficiary? Who is that actually for? How do you think that is supposed to make you feel included?
But it's the people with special pro nouns who insist on this behavior. It's a result of the demands they've made because normal "cis" people don't go around worrying about their (or anyone else's) fucking pronouns. Because at the end of the day it really doesn't matter. The trans/non-binaryfolks are the ones demanding pronoun usage. So yeah that's for THEM/THEY. And part of the reason it's so hard for "cis" to think about that is because it's fucking weird. Normal conversation with the vast majority of people never has pro-nouns even come up. And even if you accidentally mis-gender someone for whatever reason, normally people just apologize and are embarrassed a bit, but ultimately move on. It's not some heinous crime.

But it is personal and different to each individual. That's how individuals work.
Right but story telling isn't an individual thing. Movies, books, games, aren't made for the individual, they're made for the collective. Which is why you don't see a lot of niche topics handled in media much because often times stories opt to tell a human story not an individual one. You don't relate to Han Solo because he is a man, you relate to him because he is a rogue character who is caught up in event way bigger than he ever wanted to get involved in. Getting caught over our heads with events or tasks is a fundamental thing that every human can relate to, and that's why it should work.

The gender, sexuality, pro-nouns, etc of a character are really only surface features, not even the icing on the cake more like the decorative writing on the cake. It's nice enough if it's there, but most people just care about the cake and the superficial designs don't mean nearly as much as the cake's flavor.


Do you know why they're lumped together?
No clue. I thought the community itself kind of banned together to add to their numbers because inidividually those groups are very small. Even lumped together they're small.

Because you just referred to being trans as "gender confusion".
Not really. I more meant Non-binary as the confusion, because that's the option that the game in question is giving people. Which I still hold out is a good thing btw. Trans folks I don't feel are confused. They know what gender they are, they just aren't in the matching body. Trans folks are still binary. TransMAN or TransWOMAN, still binary.
 

Iron

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There are different ways of trying to be inclusive. All I'm saying is that some of the things people do in the name of trans inclusion seem like they're designed more to make cis people feel comfortable than to make trans and especially non-binary people feel comfortable.

If you're the only trans person in a given space, and because you're there everyone drops everything and has to go around the room stating their pronouns, who is the actual beneficiary? Who is that actually for? How do you think that is supposed to make you feel included?



But it is personal and different to each individual. That's how individuals work.

Trans people are not a collective puzzle to be solved by figuring out the correct button combinations.



Do you know why they're lumped together?



Because you just referred to being trans as "gender confusion".

You wanna talk about how nothing is good enough. That's not good enough. Improve that. No amount of using the correct pronouns (which only cis people think is any kind of achievement) is going to matter if you go around describing trans people as having "gender confusion".
Nothing is good enough. Nothing will make it so that a person who wants to be the opposite gender would have gone back in time and made themselves be born the opposite gender.
 

ObsidianJones

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There are different ways of trying to be inclusive. All I'm saying is that some of the things people do in the name of trans inclusion seem like they're designed more to make cis people feel comfortable than to make trans and especially non-binary people feel comfortable.

If you're the only trans person in a given space, and because you're there everyone drops everything and has to go around the room stating their pronouns, who is the actual beneficiary? Who is that actually for? How do you think that is supposed to make you feel included?
Person A: "Hi, I'm Richard Kopf. I'm here for my appointment"

Person B: "Good to meet you Dick, we're running a little behind."

Person A: "Thanks. Oh, by the way, it's Richard."

Person B: "Yeah, ok, Dick."

What's normally thought about Person B is that they are impolite and they are usually looked down on. Society is full of titles, honoraries, and the like that people desire to be addressed as. Trans people are asking for nothing more than what anyone asks of anyone else. "Call me by this name" "It's Miss, Not Mrs." "It's Doctor ____, please"

It's supposed to make people feel included because this is the type of thing that happens constantly in polite society. People are only making a deal about it with Trans because they are on the fringes of society and people don't want to respect them for it.
 

Hades

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A lot of people from the LGBT community seem to remind me that their sexuality is their defining feature when they parade naked every year in my city.
Not really. Its not expressing that their sexuality is their defining feature. Its celebrating that their sexuality is allowed to exist despite fierce opposition trying to deny that for them. Just because you spend a day cheering and sticking it to all the dullards who won't accept you doesn't mean they consider it their defining feature every single day.

And sure, their sexual identity might be among the defining features but that likely would be true to a far lesser extend if so many people didn't oppose that part of their identity with such fanaticism.
 

xmbts

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Well that's interesting, I'm still not playing it.
 

Terminal Blue

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But it's the people with special pro nouns who insist on this behaviour. It's a result of the demands they've made because normal "cis" people don't go around worrying about their (or anyone else's) fucking pronouns.
So, do you not think it's weird that I, as a person who prefers they/them pronouns, am literally telling you not to worry so much about pronouns, and your response is that cis people only worry about pronouns because people like me make "demands".

Let me tell you my demands. If I care about you enough to tell you that I prefer they/them pronouns, then I consider it a gesture of respect if you use those pronouns. Plenty of people in my life to whom I am out forget my pronouns all the time, especially if they knew me before. Heck, I have other non-binary friends who occasionally slip on my pronouns. I don't care all that much about pronouns, in my experience very few non-binary people do. What I care about is that people I like or who claim to be on my side treat my preferences with respect and courtesy.

Because my experience is that "normal" cis people care too much about pronouns, firstly because cis people care too much about gender (they literally burn down forests over it), and secondly because pronouns are an extremely easy way to look like you're trans inclusive without actually having to do anything. What normal cis people don't worry about is that they themselves will be misgendered, which doesn't mean they are in any way happy when it happens to them.

And part of the reason it's so hard for "cis" to think about that is because it's fucking weird.
It's really not.

If you're trans, or non-binary, this is not weird or difficult at all. It's difficult for cis people because cis people are weird. Cis people are the ones whose brains break down if someone wears gender inappropriate clothing or has a gender neutral name. Cis people are the ones who literally become violent because the existence of trans or gender non-conforming people represents such an existential threat to their gender identities they have to physically attack or kill someone.

If you think it's weird, then you're weird, and you should probably learn how to step out of your comfort zone. But that's the big problem here. Cis people very rarely, if ever, step out of their comfort zone.

You don't relate to Han Solo because he is a man, you relate to him because he is a rogue character who is caught up in event way bigger than he ever wanted to get involved in.
So, I'm mostly ignoring this because it's not relevant. I'm not actually talking about fictional characters, but rather I was making a throwaway point about how some people's attempts to be gender inclusive in real life can come across as self-serving and performative. I still don't really see why that's controversial or why it hit the nerve that it did, but I'm willing to ride this one and see where it goes.

But yes, I agree, Han Solo is relatable because of the situation his character is in and the actions his character takes, but that's not actually exclusive with the fact that much of his characterization is predicated on the fact that he's a man. It's not that you couldn't have a gender swapped Han Solo, but they would either have to be written differently or they would come across as a bit weird and maybe even gender non-conforming. People have different perspectives and expectations of male and female characters, particularly in a film like Star Wars where characters are written to be very archetypal, and who are also extremely gendered.

Imagine if Han Solo was still a male character, but was played by Anthony Daniels with the same camp delivery and mannerisms as C3P0. It wouldn't change the fact that he's a roguish character who is caught up in events way bigger than he wanted to get involved in, but would audiences have related to him in the same way? Almost certainly not.

No clue. I thought the community itself kind of banned together to add to their numbers because inidividually those groups are very small. Even lumped together they're small.
They're lumped together because historically they were medically considered to be the same thing, and have always faced the same kind of persecution which necessitated banding together. A lot of trans people won't date straight people, for example, because, to paraphrase Kat Blaque, it can be exhausting having to manage someone else's heterosexuality. It can also be very dangerous.

Prejudice against LGB people and trans and non-binary people ultimately stems from the same source, the inability of "normal" (cisgender, heterosexual) people to tolerate anything that breaks their "rules" of gendered behaviour.

And those communities are not as small as you think, particularly now. Do you think that humans are just naturally heterosexual?

Not really. I more meant Non-binary as the confusion, because that's the option that the game in question is giving people. Which I still hold out is a good thing btw. Trans folks I don't feel are confused. They know what gender they are, they just aren't in the matching body. Trans folks are still binary. TransMAN or TransWOMAN, still binary.
Do you think that gender is real?

Do you think that there's some kind of absolute, immutable cognitive or social reality that makes a person either male or female? Do you think there's such a thing as a male or female mind, and that having a male or female mind means that you either are male or female? Do you think that all psychological experiences can be classified into these two oppositional states of being either male or female, with nothing outside or in between?

Because if so, I think you are the one who is confused. I know what gender is. I know gender is an arbitrary mode of social organization. I know that social organization can shape our identities and sense of self, and I know that my identity and sense of self does not align cleanly with what is socially classified as male or female.

But even if I did believe that gender is real, it doesn't change the fact that I know what I am not, and therefore I also know what I am by ruling out what I am not. There's really no "confusion" in that, unless you're alleging that not feeling like your sense of self aligns with your body or social position is inherently a sign of confusion, which would also apply to binary trans people.
 
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