New Call of Duty game let's players be Non-binary

Dreiko

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This is how most of psychiatry works though. There are very few "scientific" or "concrete" ways to determine a psychiatric diagnosis except listening to a person and watching their behavior. For the most part those diagnosis work however, because a lot of professionals with a lot of experience in psychiatric care have talked to and watched a lot of people and realized that some things are recurring or very similar.

Do you feel the same way about depression? Anxiety? Schizophrenia? Psychosis? Bipolar disorder? Personality Disorders? All of these are firmly diagnosed by a combination of personal history, next of kin's experiences and the observations of the diagnosing professional. We can't take a blood sample to determine depression. Shit, even the prevailing theory about serotonine and dopamine deficiencies in the synapses is still mostly a theory because there's no surefire way to test the actual signal substances levels in a living persons brain (at least not that remains ethical and safe). But psychiatric care professionals have seen enough depressed people to know that it is "a thing". What we call depression might be one thing or it might be several that are actually not all that related, but since we can't reliably check signal substances or hormon levels we diagnose based on subjective symptoms.

Gender Dysphoria and Transsexualism both became established because a lot of people expressed these things. Many of them seeking or being led to psychiatric care for their woes. Some who seek for these symptoms end up getting another diagnosis (autism is a common co-morbidity for gender dysphoria and an important differential diagnosis, for example) but for many it is a serious and obvious psychological problem. It is not "up for a person to decide" and if anyone comes in and goes like "I felt like a guy last year but now I feel like a woman and before that I was non-binary" that's a serious warning sign. Gender Dysphoria is characterized by long term problems stemming from the psychological distress of not fitting in with one's assigned gender.

If you want to argue it isn't real go right ahead, but then I'll also ask you to argue that borderline personality disorder and generalized anxiety disorders aren't real too, because they are diagnosed in much the same way.

I think this sounds closer to depression than schizophrenia because it's a blanket thing that we don't really understand due to the variance of symptoms ascribed that label and is kinda like a half scientific half layman's term diagnosis, one which people often make for themselves with no experts involved. Whereas schizophrenia is people thinking there is spying devices in their walls and mind controlling sugar in their coffee, stuff like that, it's way more narrow so I have an easier time seeing that as credible.


But yeah I don't think it isn't real, I think it's something, I don't see much to go on to believe it must be what people say it is, but it's definitely not nothing. Maybe it's just another form of autism, where someone just fixates on this being true but it's more them being autistic about it than anything else? If it's a co-morbidity that'd at least make some sense and it has just about as much concrete evidence behind it as the other hypotheses I see.
 

Terminal Blue

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Well the obvious answer is it's a very specialised technique which was used by Dr Verma so the number of people who could really do it and have the expertise to get the resolution to that level and the funding to do such a technique are a handful of people at best.
What does that say to you?

If the measurements you are talking about are so incredibly subtle that they can only be observed by a single person, have you considered that perhaps it's less that that person is an outstanding megagenius the likes of which the world has never seen, and more that perhaps technology is simply not at the point of being able to reliably make those observations at all, and all you're actually doing here is reading meaning into barely perceptible features which lie at the very at the edge of our capacity to observe them.

It's not like neuroscientists do not have a long and disreputable history of doing just that.

No that's mostly just what he was accused of though not what his research says to do.
While some of the things Zucker has been accused of are questionable, I think you are being at best naive or at worst deliberately obfuscative regarding the actual implications of his approach.

In our clinic, it's always up to the parents to determine what the goal of therapy should be. We recommend that one goal be to help the child feel more secure about his or her actual gender, another to deal with the child's emotional difficulties, and a third to help with problems in the family. It's helpful to have parents set limits on things like cross-dressing, which many parents have not done before coming to us.

It's particularly confusing because that approach is actually completely contradictory to your other beliefs about gender identity and (I presume) sexual orientation. Zucker does not believe that gender identity is innate. He does not believe that trans people are trans from birth, and driven by fundamental neurological differences in their brains. He believes that these things, at least in children, are strongly influenced by a child's experience, in particular their family experiences, and can thus be altered by altering family experiences.

And that's not entirely out of line. Most people who actually work with trans people do not believe that gender identity is wholly innate. What they do not believe is that a therapist or parents cannot or should not try to influence a child's development.

If you don't treat it until 9 or 10, it's much harder to turn around. And beyond age 12 or so, there's a good chance they're on course to become a transsexual as adults.

Again, there is a very fundamental difference in perspective between this parent-centirc approach concerned with promoting normalization, and an affirmative approach offering unconditional support. We have moved away from the former for a reason, because again, fundamentally, it is not sufficiently distinct from the approach taken by people like John Money.

Because John Money was also not a "bad" person. He was sympathetic to the plight of his intersexed patients and thought he could help them. Sadly, thinking you are helping someone (or even being able to convince them that you are) does not always mean you are.

So to be clear you don't like being asked your pronouns because you see even that as somehow offensive?
Do you like people you don't know coming up and asking you to volunteer highly personal information about yourself?

Because in an age where there are no set pronouns and non binary is being said to cover a range of identities and even they don't have set pronouns......... it seems like it would be near impossible to know your pronouns for sure........
Do you need to know for sure?

I don't need to tell you my pronouns. If you ask me, I could easily lie. It would make no difference to me or to who I was if I lied, it would just make me a liar. My pronouns are no more relevant or important than those of all the cis people you assume the gender of every day. That's why the most precious and revered one joke is a joke, isn't it? Because it's ubiquitous to assume other people's gender and only crazy people would be offended by it.

So just do it, and let people correct you if they feel you're worth the effort to do so. Do people the courtesy of letting them closet without being liars.
 

Houseman

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Do you like people you don't know coming up and asking you to volunteer highly personal information about yourself?
To most people, one's gender is about as personal and as freely given as their name, which is why there's a field for it on this site. So you must be able to understand that this comes off as strange to over 90% of people.
 

Terminal Blue

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To most people, one's gender is about as personal and as freely given as their name, which is why there's a field for it on this site.
Most people never have to confront disbelief, ridicule or violence when disclosing their gender.

Let's lay out some context. Firstly, a significant number of trans people do not believe that non-binary people exist or possess a valid gender identity. Broaden it to cis people, and you're talking about the vast majority. Now,. I can say with conviction that non-binary people do exist , that non-binary gender identities are valid, and none of those people who believe otherwise are actually capable of doing anything about it. But the sad reality is that they are going to try, and the unfortunate statistical truth is that if they do try, most people will take their side. Being non-binary is something you constantly have to fight to assert against a world that is pretty unrelentingly hostile to the idea.

To put it simply, most people don't have an experience of closeting. But almost all trans people do.

And I think my issue here is that I feel like there's a strand of "woke" liberal thought which tends to uncritically associate closeting with shame, and being "out" with empowerment, without really engaging critically with who actually benefits from this. I mean, on one hand you can look at cis people putting pronouns in their bio or going through the weird ritual of having everyone in a group introduce themselves and their pronouns as form of normalization that helps trans and non-binary inclusion by making it more acceptable to talk about these things, but on the other hand, none of those people are ever going to get the shit that trans and non-binary people get. None of those people are ever going to face disbelief or humiliation.

Ultimately, I feel personally that pushing everyone to be out and open and assertive all the time is of far more benefit to "woke" cis people, who get to feel inclusive while taking no risks or enduring no discomfort, than it is beneficial to trans and non-binary people.
 

Houseman

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Most people never have to confront disbelief, ridicule or violence when disclosing their gender.
I don't deny that. My point was my second sentence: "So you must be able to understand that this comes off as strange to over 90% of people"

Do you agree? Yes or no?

Respect and empathy is a two way street. You can't demand it.
 

CriticalGaming

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Ultimately, I feel personally that pushing everyone to be out and open and assertive all the time is of far more benefit to "woke" cis people, who get to feel inclusive while taking no risks or enduring no discomfort, than it is beneficial to trans and non-binary people
So if people arent supposed to try and be inclusive then wtf do people want.

This constant shifting of the goalposts and this crazy idea that everyone's preferred manner of approach is personal and different to each individual is simply insanity.

The problem that people have is nothing is ever good enough. Nothing is ever correct. And what is even more mind boggling is a lot of the time the LBGTQ community is at odds with itself.

Frankly i think they need a new name. Because sexually is different than gender-confusion. Poor gay, bi, and lesbian folks get lumped together with radical trans, ????, and fluid people. Which makes no sense because those are obviously different things.


Also this thread was just to show that Call of Duty of all things was actually trying to consider the spectrum of people. They were trying to be fucking nice! Why is this 9 pages of bullshit!?
 

ObsidianJones

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So if people arent supposed to try and be inclusive then wtf do people want.

This constant shifting of the goalposts and this crazy idea that everyone's preferred manner of approach is personal and different to each individual is simply insanity.

The problem that people have is nothing is ever good enough. Nothing is ever correct. And what is even more mind boggling is a lot of the time the LBGTQ community is at odds with itself.

Frankly i think they need a new name. Because sexually is different than gender-confusion. Poor gay, bi, and lesbian folks get lumped together with radical trans, ????, and fluid people. Which makes no sense because those are obviously different things.


Also this thread was just to show that Call of Duty of all things was actually trying to consider the spectrum of people. They were trying to be fucking nice! Why is this 9 pages of bullshit!?
Honest Answer? No one wants to be nice any more. They feel like it takes too much focus away from themselves.

This affects me as much as the LGBTQ gets more representation. While I'm not a member of that particular family, I am a member of the bigger family that includes us all known as the human race. So I'm glad my LGBTQ family gets to be seen more.
 

CriticalGaming

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Honest Answer? No one wants to be nice any more. They feel like it takes too much focus away from themselves.

This affects me as much as the LGBTQ gets more representation. While I'm not a member of that particular family, I am a member of the bigger family that includes us all known as the human race. So I'm glad my LGBTQ family gets to be seen more.
The thing is, i am not sure they THEY are glad they get to be seen more. Because everytime an option or whatever is included it becomes a shitstorm. And that isnt just from "cis" dickhead claiming woke culture.

I remember Lara Kate Dale was furious because the trans character in Cathrine Full Bodied was used in what she claimed was a nagative way.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Different members of a community have different opinions about different events. Not sure why that seems weird to you
 

ObsidianJones

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Games are about wish fulfillment. We all get pleasure out of that. But it seems like a certain segment of gamers are trying to gather all the toys and go "NO, YOU GO HAVE YOUR WISHES OVER THERE. LEAVE THESE ALONE. WHY CAN'T YOU BE HAPPY WITH HOW I WISH FULFILL AND JUST BE CONTENT ON HOW I SEE IT?!"

The thing is, i am not sure they THEY are glad they get to be seen more. Because everytime an option or whatever is included it becomes a shitstorm. And that isnt just from "cis" dickhead claiming woke culture.

I remember Lara Kate Dale was furious because the trans character in Cathrine Full Bodied was used in what she claimed was a nagative way.
If I remember the game correctly, the main characters freak the hell out when one of their own strikes up a relationship with the Trans character.


And once those characters hook up and have sex, the guy freaks out that his first sexual experience is with a Transsexual.

Not a hundred percent great representation there. It would be like if I was so psyched to see my first black male lead in a game, and the other women are freaking out that one of their own had sex with a black guy.
 

Casual Shinji

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I remember Lara Kate Dale was furious because the trans character in Cathrine Full Bodied was used in what she claimed was a nagative way.
Probably because of its somewhat "trap-y" depiction of the character, which has become kind of a point of contention. I never finished the game, so I don't know how this character ends up, but I do know that when 'that scene' occured, the 'ah my gawd, it's a DUDE' scene, it just made me feel icky. Like, we're still doing this Japan? It made any sympathy or empathy I had for Vincent also immediately dry up. Again, I don't know if this gets rectified in any sort of respectable way in the end, but Rin just sorta felt set up from the beginning to be the "trap".
 

Casual Shinji

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Games are about wish fulfillment. We all get pleasure out of that. But it seems like a certain segment of gamers are trying to gather all the toys and go "NO, YOU GO HAVE YOUR WISHES OVER THERE. LEAVE THESE ALONE. WHY CAN'T YOU BE HAPPY WITH HOW I WISH FULFILL AND JUST BE CONTENT ON HOW I SEE IT?!"



If I remember the game correctly, the main characters freak the hell out when one of their own strikes up a relationship with the Trans character.


And once those characters hook up and have sex, the guy freaks out that his first sexual experience is with a Transsexual.

Not a hundred percent great representation there. It would be like if I was so psyched to see my first black male lead in a game, and the other women are freaking out that one of their own had sex with a black guy.
Wait, this was a thing too in the game? *sigh*

What is it with Atlas and this stuff? Like in Persona 5 where Ryuji gets aggressively flirted with/harrassed by two random gay guys on the street. Get it, cuz they're gay.
 

CriticalGaming

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Probably because of its somewhat "trap-y" depiction of the character, which has become kind of a point of contention. I never finished the game, so I don't know how this character ends up, but I do know that when 'that scene' occured, the 'ah my gawd, it's a DUDE' scene, it just made me feel icky. Like, we're still doing this Japan? It made any sympathy or empathy I had for Vincent also immediately dry up. Again, I don't know if this gets rectified in any sort of respectable way in the end, but Rin just sorta felt set up from the beginning to be the "trap".
That might be the case, but that isn't inherently bad representation. It's a trans character being included into the story in a believable way that make sense for the context of what that story is about.

I remember Laura also had issues with some random trans NPC in Mass Effect Andromeda. A character who left the Milky Way because they wanted to leave behind the life they had before transitioning. And IIRC Laura said this was bad because it was shaming trans-people and implied that the only way they could be happy is to run away from their life completely. Or something like that.

Which becomes the perfect example of moving the goalposts that this community insists everytime someone tries to be inclusive. That Trans character in Andromeda is relateable because who hasn't wanted to fuck off and start over? It's relatable to more than just the trans community because it's a human-based motivation. The same thing goes for the "trap" in Catherine because in the case of that game you have a common romantic comedy trope included into a game that didn't need to have it in the first place.

It's fine to say that the inclusion can be better, but when you villify all inclusion because it isn't inclusion the way YOU want it, than all you do is discourage devs and writers from even bothering. If I keep trying to make you happy and all I get is shit for it, then fuck you I'm not gonna try to please your ass anymore.

Criticism is fine, but outright being like "It's shit, this is shit, the writers should be ashamed for this shit" is not productive and in the long run will only push people away from even attempting to include you.

Here Call of Duty did it right I feel. It's just an option you can pick, nobody makes a big deal about it and nothing in the game indicates that anyone even gives a shit. Which in theory is how it should be right? It's like people want to be special, but also not special at the same time.
 

Houseman

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It's a trans character being included into the story in a believable way that make sense for the context of what that story is about.
Oh NOW you want to talk about "believable" and "makes sense for the context", when you've spat on my argument which is about the exact same thing. How hilarious.