New Call of Duty game let's players be Non-binary

Houseman

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And yet, the discussion somehow survived you questioning my sanity,
Like I said, having a mental disorder and being "insane" are not necessarily the same thing.
You're just afraid that people will use the excuse that you have a mental disorder to dismiss anything you say.

That won't happen.

You began this discussion on the operating assumption that being trans or non-binary is a mental flaw, and thus that it makes people automatically less rational than you
No, that is not his assumption, I can guarantee you that.

You are the one here with the flawed view of what it means to have a mental disorder.
 

Terminal Blue

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You're just afraid that people will use the excuse that you have a mental disorder to dismiss anything you say.
.
Okay. Let's assume that my gender identity constitutes a mental disorder. It doesn't, and you cannot demonstrate that it does except by deliberately twisting the definition of a mental disorder, but let's assume for a moment.

Is your gender identity a mental disorder?

Firstly, your gender identity seems to be far more socially and psychologically detrimental than mine. It is hugely correlated with antisocial behaviour. People who share your gender identity are responsible for the overwhelming majority of violence and crime. They are far more likely to develop and exhibit antisocial personality traits, and far less likely to develop prosocial personality traits. They typically lag behind in the development of social cognitive skills like empathy. They struggle to form close friendships and fall easily into social isolation. They are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol. They are more likely to successfully commit suicide.

Now, the obvious counter argument here is that these things are due to inherent sex differences, and therefore not gendered at all. However, it's clearly not that simple, most of these things have changed over time and vary depending on cultural context, which heavily suggests that even if there are inherent sex differences in the behaviour of men and women, these traits are moderated by social and cultural factors. It also doesn't match up with basic reality, even in my life I have met plenty of cis men who are individually capable of being gentle, expressive, caring and socially skilled. These deficiencies are, at least to some extent, gendered traits, rather than sexual traits.

Secondly, let's talk about autism. Hans Asperger, one of the key figures in the development of autism as a diagnostic condition, initially believed that it was only present in males. Although he later changed his mind, diagnoses of autism remains vastly more common in men than in women. This has lead to a theory in sexual difference research that autism itself represents an extreme variation on normal neurological sex differences, that autism represents an "extreme male brain" and this can explain a lot of the antisocial behaviour that men exhibit. This theory, to put it bluntly, is bullshit. It's based on an outdated and highly pejorative understanding of what autism is and how it manifests. However, it is based (however superficially) on the interpretation of the actual evidence. Certainly, many of the harmful traits commonly associate with autism are both far more present in men with autism, and also far closer to behaviour common among non-autistic men.

Every argument you could make to justify the claim that my gender identity constitutes a mental disorder could also apply to yours. They're weak arguments, but they were weak arguments when you applied them to me. There is only one argument (which as far as I'm aware noone has actually directly made so congratulations I guess) which actually justifies the idea that my gender identity is a mental disorder and yours is not, and that is that gender identity proceeds naturally or organically from anatomy, and thus that having a gender identity that does not align with your anatomy is in and of itself a lie or a delusion.

Now, you talk about the definition of a mental disorder, and in a sense you are correct. Gender dysphoria, for example, is a mental disorder. A mental disorder does not inherently imply an unreasonable or irrational response, only a response that is harmful in some way. However, the thing about gender dysphoria is that gender dysphoria can be cured without altering gender identity. In fact, doing things to affirm one's own gender identity is likely to strongly decrease feelings of gender dysphoria. Being trans or non binary is not an inherently precarious, hazardous or socially isolating experience, that depends very much on your life situation and surroundings, as it does for everyone. So again, we are left with this obvious conclusion. If these things are mental disorders, it's because they're based on delusion, a belief in things that are not real.

But is your gender identity real?

Think about everything I have said. Think about all the things that come with being male. Think about all the risks and harms to which a person exposes themselves by being male and ask yourself a simple question. Why would you ever assume that the entire progression of your life should be determined by the shape of your genitals? Why did you assume that the social position you occupy should be determined by something as completely meaningless as what you look like with your trousers off.

How is your irrational belief that it is normal or acceptable to base your identity on a few inches of meat less delusional than my need to try and create an existence for myself outside of that? Why should the definition of mental health be based on subscribing to your beliefs? Particularly when your beliefs are not only deeply irrational, but also seem to lead far, far more actual societal and personal harm than mine do.

So given that, are you willing to accept that, by every possible metric by which you could describe me as such, you are mentally disordered? Remember, it's not a bad thing apparently. Heck, we can all be mentally disordered together, along with every other human being on the planet

Maybe, and let me go out on a limb here, the whole idea that our identities are rational phenomena which need to be "ordered" is kind of a stupid idea. We don't choose our identities, they are the involuntarily product of our basic human need to make sense of our world and our place within it. They are always disorderly, because we are not ordered beings. Deep down, we don't have any control over who we are or what we want, and in that sense, ultimately, all our self-constructed identities are based on self-delusion. Maybe if we accept that, we can learn to be more generous and forgiving of ourselves and each other, and to worry less about whether our identities are in order, about whether we are meeting some standard of sufficiency in the performance of our self-constructed identities, and more about expressing who we are as individuals.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Saw this elsewhere, but it makes sense:

One of the common traits of autism is an inability to naturally recognize social cues. Given how gender is a social construct, i.e. "what is manly/womanly" varies wildly across cultures and time periods, wouldn't it follow then that an autistic person is more likely to not bother expending the mental energy to get "gender" right, instead choosing the one that fits them or just not choosing a binary option altogether?
 

Hades

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You're just afraid that people will use the excuse that you have a mental disorder to dismiss anything you say.

That won't happen.
Isn't it already happening? People against trans rights have it as their entire argument that ''lol its just a mental disorder! No need to give these silly people respect or rights!'' Their entire premise hinges on transgenders being delusional or mentally ill and that since their feelings are based on ''insanity'' there's no need to engage with them or give transgenders what they want or need.

And that's the charitable version. There's also the line of thinking that transgenders are actively dangerous.

People really do dismiss anything transgenders say and feel, and they feel legitimized in doing so because its ''just a mental disorder''.
 
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Houseman

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Okay. Let's assume that my gender identity constitutes a mental disorder. It doesn't, and you cannot demonstrate that it does except by deliberately twisting the definition of a mental disorder, but let's assume for a moment.

Is your gender identity a mental disorder?

Firstly, your gender identity seems to be far more socially and psychologically detrimental than mine. It is hugely correlated with antisocial behaviour. People who share your gender identity are responsible for the overwhelming majority of violence and crime. They are far more likely to develop and exhibit antisocial personality traits, and far less likely to develop prosocial personality traits. They typically lag behind in the development of social cognitive skills like empathy. They struggle to form close friendships and fall easily into social isolation. They are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol. They are more likely to successfully commit suicide.
You've made this argument before and I gave an answer to it before, way back in post #353

In addition to what I said previously, your whole argument seems to be a form of tu quoque, "yeah, but what about YOU?"
It's a distraction from the issue. You want to dilute the seriousness of your condition by claiming that other groups have it just as bad. You want to compare the 41% suicide rate with "well Hitler was a cis man and he killed so many people, so isn't that worse?"

Other people having problems does not mean that you don't have a problem. You want the argument to be "if I have a problem, then EVERYONE has a problem, and the word 'problem' is meaningless!", but that doesn't work because to make such an equivalence you have to exaggerate the problems of men, and belittle the problems of trans people.

Every argument you could make to justify the claim that my gender identity constitutes a mental disorder could also apply to yours.
Except the suicide rate.

Every argument you could make to justify the claim that my gender identity constitutes a mental disorder could also apply to yours. They're weak arguments, but they were weak arguments when you applied them to me. There is only one argument (which as far as I'm aware noone has actually directly made so congratulations I guess) which actually justifies the idea that my gender identity is a mental disorder and yours is not, and that is that gender identity proceeds naturally or organically from anatomy, and thus that having a gender identity that does not align with your anatomy is in and of itself a lie or a delusion.
Yes.

But is your gender identity real?

Think about everything I have said. Think about all the things that come with being male. Think about all the risks and harms to which a person exposes themselves by being male and ask yourself a simple question. Why would you ever assume that the entire progression of your life should be determined by the shape of your genitals? Why did you assume that the social position you occupy should be determined by something as completely meaningless as what you look like with your trousers off.
If it were only that simple, I would agree with you. But it's not. We're not amorphous grey blobs where the only difference between Alice and Bob are their genitals.
You are simplifying to the point of absurdity.

What's the true, complex answer to the question of "what's the difference, if any, between men and women?" I don't fully know.
But I can tell you we're not carbon copies of each-other with only one minor difference in pelvic region.
 
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Houseman

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Isn't it already happening? People against trans rights have it as their entire argument that ''lol its just a mental disorder! No need to give these silly people respect or rights!'' Their entire premise hinges on transgenders being delusional or mentally ill and that since their feelings are based on ''insanity'' there's no need to engage with them or give transgenders what they want or need.

And that's the charitable version. There's also the line of thinking that transgenders are actively dangerous.

People really do dismiss anything transgenders say and feel, and they feel legitimized in doing so because its ''just a mental disorder''.
I meant "that won't happen here", as in "on these forums".
 

Terminal Blue

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You've made this argument before and I gave an answer to it before, way back in post #353

In addition to what I said previously, your whole argument seems to be a form of tu quoque, "yeah, but what about YOU?"
It's a distraction from the issue. You want to dilute the seriousness of your condition by claiming that other groups have it just as bad. You want to compare the 41% suicide rate with "well Hitler was a cis man and he killed so many people, so isn't that worse?"
I don't need to dilute the seriousness of my condition because my gender identity is not a serious condition. The only problems it causes me is due to a lack of acceptance from other people, but I don't see why that constitutes a serious condition for me.

Let me make it more explicit. I don't care who has it bad. Having it bad is not a mental illness, and it will not be no matter how you twist it. Unemployed people have it bad, but unemployment is not a mental illness. People in poverty have it bad, still not a mental illness. Asylum seekers have it bad, again, not a mental illness. All of these things can certainly facilitate mental illness, and are correlated with mental illness, but they are not in and of themselves mental illnesses.

Now, you can say that not everything that causes a high suicide rate is a mental disorder, but that merely prompts an obvious question. Why does the high suicide rate among trans people in particular make trans identities themselves a mental disorder? What is different about the high suicide rate among trans people when compared to the high suicide rate among other groups? Again, the point is not who has it worse, the point is to illustrate your particularism when it comes to trans people.

You want the argument to be "if I have a problem, then EVERYONE has a problem, and the word 'problem' is meaningless!", but that doesn't work because to make such an equivalence you have to exaggerate the problems of men, and belittle the problems of trans people.
No. I don't. If anything, it's the reverse. I am massively, massively underplaying the problems with cis men.

Except the suicide rate.
Actually no. Not even the suicide rate. I already explained this. If the suicide rate among trans people after medical transition is 40% higher than average, then that still makes them less likely to commit suicide than cis men. Trans suicide, like LGBT suicide in general, is a youth phenomenon, and is largely attributable to incredibly high rates of bullying, social isolation, parental rejection and physical violence against trans youth.

But I can tell you we're not carbon copies of each-other with only one minor difference in pelvic region.
It's not just a question of what differences exist, but what differences matter.

What we do know is that, beyond sexual anatomy, reproduction and a few other hormone-dependent qualities like physical size and fat distribution, the differences between men and women, if they exist, are so slight that they do not seem to constitute any meaningful impediment which cannot be trivially overcome through learning and socialization.

For hundreds of years, people simply assumed that men and women were different because mystical forces, in addition to creating their bodies, influenced their mind and temperament. With the appearance of biology as a science, these beliefs were simply converted into the language of nature. It seemed common sense to those people that because their society worked a certain way, it must have been preconditioned by nature to function in that way. But what has happened over the past century and a half or so has been the gradual realisation that the differences between the sexes are, almost entirely, not magical or natural, but self-imposed.

It is demonstrably wrong, at this point, to assume any social meaning to human sex. Sexual differences, if they matter at all, are merely a question of abstract curiosity, because whatever rules you establish are going to be easily broken.
 

Houseman

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If the suicide rate among trans people after medical transition is 40% higher than average
It's not 40% higher than average, it's 40%. The normal rate for cis men is something like 20%.

Not higher. Twice as worse. Even in LGBT-friendly countries like Switzerland
 

Terminal Blue

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It's not 40% higher than average, it's 40%. The normal rate for cis men is something like 20%.
That's not the suicide rate.

The suicide rate refers to the number of suicides, that is to say people who die and whose deaths are ruled to be suicides. It's difficult to know the lifetime prevalence of suicide among trans people, because whether or not a person is trans is not recorded on their death certificate and, for obvious reasons, they don't show up in self-reporting. What does show up in self-reporting, and is far more well studied, is the rate of suicide attempts, which for trans people typically falls between 20 and 40% depending on study. Very high compared to the rest of the population, but not completely out of line with other at risk groups such as LGB people or women in higher education.

But it's because of this self-reported data that we have a very clear picture of when and why trans people attempt suicide, and surprise surprise, it is directly related to life circumstances. People whose families are accepting attempt suicide less, people who are rejected by their families or have been made homeless attempt suicide more. Exposure to transphobia or violence increases the likelihood of suicide attempts. Interestingly, a lack of legal protection for trans people against discrimination increases the risk of suicide attempts. In short, the biggest risk factor facing trans people is transphobia.

The only risk factor that might reasonably be said to stem from the experience of being trans itself is gender dysphoria, and again, gender dysphoria is not gender identity. Gender dysphoria is extremely hard and painful, but in the vast majority of people it is curable. Transphobia, on the other hand, is a social problem. One way you can help reduce transphobia is by not making weird, pejorative assumptions about trans people.
 
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Houseman

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That's not the suicide rate.

The suicide rate refers to the number of suicides, that is to say people who die and whose deaths are ruled to be suicides
You're right, it's not.

What I actually thought was the suicide rate is from this study that says that 41% of (surveyed) trans people attempted suicide. It's not the actual suicide rate.
The "normal" suicide attempt rate is 4.8%

Still horrifying, even if it's not as bad as if it were the suicide rate.