New Call of Duty game let's players be Non-binary
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I'm tired, I'm not sure I'll continue this conversation any further.
Again, at what age did you know you were male?
I'm pretty sure you've always known.
Why is this different?
You're talking as if I felt it when I was a teenager, but if you ask anyone in my family I've been a weird, gloomy little shit since I was like five, I'm pretty sure I knew then that I wasn't "normal", and in fact that's also when I started wearing clothes that covered my whole body, and I remember I was so uncomfortable with the idea of anyone seeing me that I specifically started doubting the existence of God since then because it sees everything and I didn't want it to see me naked when I was showering, ironic that in hindsight even my atheistic tendencies originate from discomfort with my body, it's just a thing that you know.
Again these pretending that at that age you're not old enough to know is bullshit, and again I'm also suggesting that they receive a psychological evaluation.
Honestly you clearly don't understand how much people hate this and how scary it is and the reason why people are so proud about Elliot Page is that he's basically going to be abused publicly by conservative media for the rest of his life, and also he's the first really high profile trans-masc non-binary person, it honestly genuinely takes guts to do what he did, but I wouldn't say as much as a teen needs since there's no risk of going homeless and losing everything for him (There isn't for me either, but it's still scary).
What makes you more qualified to know?
I've never had these many emotions at the same time, I think I'm starting to understand what it means to be human and it sucks, I think I was better off when I was an emotionless robot.
Why?
Again, at what age did you know you were male?
I'm pretty sure you've always known.
Why is this different?
You're talking as if I felt it when I was a teenager, but if you ask anyone in my family I've been a weird, gloomy little shit since I was like five, I'm pretty sure I knew then that I wasn't "normal", and in fact that's also when I started wearing clothes that covered my whole body, and I remember I was so uncomfortable with the idea of anyone seeing me that I specifically started doubting the existence of God since then because it sees everything and I didn't want it to see me naked when I was showering, ironic that in hindsight even my atheistic tendencies originate from discomfort with my body, it's just a thing that you know.
Again these pretending that at that age you're not old enough to know is bullshit, and again I'm also suggesting that they receive a psychological evaluation.
We agree then, if they forced you to be the gender that you're not that would be really bad, it's not like hormones are unnatural anyway, the both the male and bodies produce Testosterone and Estrogen, it's just that the balance of them is flipped, it's not a drug, it's just altering the balance of something that's already there.
I call bullshit on this, as someone that's going through this I'll just say that thinking about actually starting medical treatment and having to let people know is absolutely horrifying, like I just know that my parents will hate me for it, they would they've always hated me for being androgynous already, they wouldn't tolerate it, like you have no idea how much I don't want to visit them this Christmas I feel horribly self-conscious and hyper aware of how I act, and the anxiety that my friends won't want to talk to me for being weird is horrifying, I don't think I've ever been this scared about anything and I've been in shootouts, earthquakes, floods and even on fire, honestly I just wish nobody gave a shit.
Honestly you clearly don't understand how much people hate this and how scary it is and the reason why people are so proud about Elliot Page is that he's basically going to be abused publicly by conservative media for the rest of his life, and also he's the first really high profile trans-masc non-binary person, it honestly genuinely takes guts to do what he did, but I wouldn't say as much as a teen needs since there's no risk of going homeless and losing everything for him (There isn't for me either, but it's still scary).
Again, but you've self-diagnosed yourself as the same gender you were born as, why is it you can be trusted to do this and trans kids can't?
What makes you more qualified to know?
It's complicated, I just have emotions and I don't know what to do with them, at least telling them they're wrong makes me feel a bit better.
I've never had these many emotions at the same time, I think I'm starting to understand what it means to be human and it sucks, I think I was better off when I was an emotionless robot.
Thanks, I've been talking with someone and seeing a doctor, I'm just being weird I guess, I don't know how to deal with things.
I'm not making the "being trans/gay is a choice!" argument, so I don't know why you're asking me this.
I'm saying "children don't always know what they are", as evidenced by all the teenagers I went to high school with who "came out" as lesbian, bi, trans, etc, and later ended up living cis lives, happily married to the opposite sex.
I don't disbelieve that there are some people who are genuinely feel this way since early childhood.
I just disbelieve that everybody knows who they are since early childhood.
Some people, like you said, explore and experiment. Some people are influenced.
Not 100% of the people who say they are trans are really trans.
You're only speaking from your experience.
I'm saying that I knew people who pretended to be lesbian/bi/trans for attention.
Sometimes, teenagers lie. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they want attention.
Sometimes they don't.
I'm not discounting your experience, I'm speaking to mine.
I am not talking about you. Don't take my words as a personal attack. I'm not saying you're faking it, so don't feel the need to defend yourself.
I don't think you fully understand how desperate some people are for attention.
Again, not everyone, just some people.
Remember that Twitch ambassador or whatever who thinks she's a deer (a male one, with antlers)?
What do you think of that? You think people are born as deer? Or do you think she's doing it for attention?
If people can pretend to be deer, why do you think it's such a stretch to pretend to be trans?
I am not saying that "trans kids can't be trusted", I am saying two things:
1) No kids should be trusted, especially when it involves chemistry-altering medicine or surgery, the consequences of which may last a lifetime.
2) Not all LGBT kids are faking it, "exploring", or "unsure", just some of them are.
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And some people are influenced into believing they're cis even if they're trans, even if it hurts them a lot, I've talked with a few married people who are horribly afraid of ever going forward with it because they weren't sure when they got married and they don't want their spouse to leave them, distrust goes both ways.
Going by your logic if we wanted to make it equal to everyone we would have to stop everyone from even having a gender when they're kids because they might be lying.
Don't you see how absurd what you're saying is?
Houseman, I'm pretty sure I know what kind of person you are, and you kinda suck because you enjoy annoying people just for fun, but as a result I can't really take most of what you say very seriously, I'm pretty sure you're just trying to get a rise out of whomever you're arguing with most of the time.
So what you're saying is that because of the existence of a few misguided people which if they exist are definitely a minority in the group we should just basically fuck over all trans people, like I don't think you understand what a huge difference it would make to not have to undergo those undesired physical changes and instead get the ones you're comfortable with, not to sound like a broken record but the voice thing becomes a non-issue if treatment is available, like I know people that are practically mute due to the discomfort they suffer due to their voices, and I know it sometimes bothers me enough that I'll avoid hanging out with my friends because I get tired of listening to a voice that clearly isn't mine but somehow comes out of my mouth.
What I'm saying is that this issue isn't as big as you say it is.
No idea who that is, never heard of her, honestly don't give a shit either it's not my business what weird fixations she may or may not have.
Besides it's not like I can judge her, I've felt so alienated from the human experience that at times I've felt like a computer or a robot, it's just that I only ever mentioned it as a joke because I was aware of how crazy it sounds to be specific I referred to myself as guy/girl/robot/space mutant lobster thing, which again was a joke but it's a joke I made up because I definitely felt like I wasn't human, it's not common but it's not exactly abnormal to identify as an animal or inanimate object once you've completely depersonalised, I'd recommend she sees a doctor but it's not my business what she does or says.
It's not necessarily about what you say, but what it implies regardless of intention, whether you like it or not you're saying that they don't have the capacity to make that choice and as such should remain cis until adulthood, again a standard that you're not applying to cis people when it comes to determining the same thing, you have also failed to address the fact that not taking the treatment (Which for minors would be exclusively HRT, no surgeries) also has consequences that will last a lifetime.
Either way there'd be consequences, not doing the treatment isn't a blanket staying healthy thing as you seem to imply it is, it's also a chemical procedure that alters the body, with the exact same kind of chemicals that would be used under HRT, what I'm saying is that you're inconsistent and too fixated on possible fakers, even though being trans is such a hard thing to be that even if I humour you and we assume these fakers exist they are bound to be a vast minority.
I'm only suggesting that we stop children from taking chemistry-altering drugs because there's a non-zero chance that any given individual might be wrong about their self-diagnosis.
At least if the decision were made solely up to medical professionals, you could blame them, the supposed experts, instead of children, experts of nothing, not even of themselves.
I, like you, am in support of advancements in medical science, more access to medical professionals, more research, and psychological evaluations.
I'm not in support of people self-diagnosing, gaming the system, and children having access to chemistry-altering and body-altering, drugs, perhaps with permanent side-effects, that are not solely prescribed by the determination of a medical professional.
It's like prohibition. If people want alcohol, they're happily pay for it legally even if it's regulated and taxed, but if you take that option away from them, they'll get it illegally, which is more dangerous. I'd rather have the legal option, than the illegal option that makes people go blind.
In either case, children still shouldn't partake.
Good, so you do understand. Thank you.
We both agree that we're dealing with mental illness here that needs the treatment of a doctor. It seems like we're on the same page.
That's... exactly what I said. Children shouldn't be, because they can't be trusted. A medical professional, alone, should make the decision, and children shouldn't be allowed to "game" the system.
Because being cis, or even gay, doesn't require puberty blockers, or hormone treatments, or surgery. It's just nature taking its course. If it did, if we were all born as androgynous grey blobs, and we had to undergo treatment to turn ourselves into what we want to be, I'd want to reserve that right for adults too.
If the alternative is letting children have unregulated access to chemistry-altering drugs, then the alternative is worse than letting nature take its course.
This doesn't rule out other solutions, mind you, I'm just assuming between a choice of one or the other.
Does that mean you actually don't think that these fakers exist AT ALL?
Well, that right there is, in my opinion, downright ignorant and unreasonable. It explains why you meet my viewpoint with such resistance.
If you say I'm fixated on fakers, I say you're fixated on your own experience.
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This is at least closer to being on-topic than MRA stuff.
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It's an interesting read. They've cured homosexuality with transgenderism.Ironically, as a point I'm sure you aren't making on purpose, Iran is actually a perfect example of gender paradigms that aren't the same as here in the west. Nobody gives a shit if you're born with the wrong tackle over there.
Shame that they're still on the "bury the gays" kick that we've only moved on from in name and dubious legal protection:
Americans’ Role Seen in Uganda Anti-Gay Push (Published 2010)
Human rights advocates say that three U.S. evangelicals helped set the stage for a bill to execute homosexuals.www.nytimes.com
You are transphobic.
You've said some incredibly transphobic things. I don't care how you feel about some video game character if you think it's acceptable to talk like that about real people, including myself.
I've been soft on you, because in my experience if you confront cis people about their transphobia they just dig in and put on the victim act, kind of like you're doing now. But are you really surprised at the reaction you're getting?
It sounds to me like you're fixated on fakers because of your own experience. You keep bringing up these people you knew as children, or people you see on social media, but their situation really has no relationship to what we're talking about. We're not talking about children who say they are trans, we are talking about children who are already living full time in role and who are socially already settled into their gender identity (despite enormous pressure to desist).
Maybe put your own experience aside and think about their experience.
Ah there it is. At least you're being direct.
Can't have a discussion like this without the irrational side resulting in name calling and labeling.
Because you can't reasonably defend the arguments presented, especially about the justification for pushing gender transition upon literal children, instead you have to just call the other side prejudice.
And with that I think it's time we get this thread closed. What say you @Nick Calandra ?
Called out on what? being called phobic.
I'm closing the thread because when people start resorting to that crap then they have nothing left to say and no more discourse can be had. Besides it's not like any side is going to suddenly change their minds, and it's hard to try to be reasonable with unreasonable people.
I said this would eventually happen back in post #310 like ten pages ago. When people ran out of rationality it was always going to break down into insults.
Throughout this thread, I've tried my best to be understand while also providing not only my viewpoints but I also did literal research to try and further my understanding of this whole mess from the get go. In return I got no rational points made back to me, along with nobody presenting their own research or facts.....Yet somehow I'M the asshole?
Yeah okay then. Keep living in your dreamlands where you can make whatever shit up you want and nobody is allowed to question your rationality. Please stay away from school zones though, thanks.
Are you assuming you're not prejudiced?
Serious question, we live in a society full of prejudice, of rampant transphobic that infects everyone to a greater or lesser degree (I'd not exclude trans people from this). I would not automatically dismiss someone calling me out for being transphobic.
And when I say "I", I do not just mean "you" or some other person, I'm aware that I almost certainly hold transphobic views myself, but since I hold them I'm unlikely to recognise them until someone else calls me out. Beyond obvious stuff like misgendering or deadnaming Elliott Page in the other thread (and this one while I was writing this).
And, yeah, it's not much fun for me when someone calls me out on something I've said or done wrong, and my immediate, instinctual response is to dig in/play the victim act/have a tantrum/whatever. But that's impressively unhelpful for anything involved, including myself if I actually want to do better and lessen the chance of getting it wrong next time.
Now, I've no reason to hope you'll care about any of that, this is something everyone has done better and it always ends the same. But c'mon, you've got an opportunity not to dig yourself in deeper here, to do better, and to show people that they were wrong when they looked at your last few posts and decided you were transphobic (and even if Terminal Blue was the first to say it, I'm 100% sure various others were thinking it, and jumping up and down claiming they're wrong proves them right).
You can do better. I know you'll decide not to, but feel free to prove me wrong.
Do better at what? Change my mind that inducing hormone and puberty blockers in kids is okay? Thinking that the very practice or persuading younger kids, and college age students in some cases, that being trans is just a perfectly normal thing?
Because I wont.
I will stand by anyone who wants to live that life if that's a choice they are confident in making (but only after taking the precautionary steps of theraphy, lifestyle changes for an extended period of time before beginning any medical processes including hormonal) At the end of that, fine. You do you and I got your back.
But the problem is when it is pushed on people, and it is because even among adults the acceptance of our peers can be a powerful mindfuck, then it isn't legitimate.
When people can't look at the practical realities of things, like Gender Dysmorphia being an entirely mental illness (which by the way doesn't make you a worthless person nor does it invalidate you, being sick doesn't make you gutter trash don't be ridiculous), and how it's led to thought processes which allow these people to project their desires onto others in order to manipulate them and bring them into the fold so to speak. It's damn near cult-like, and it simply isn't a Kool-Aid I'm willing to drink, nor is it a Kool-aid that I think should be so freely offered to just anyone. You need a prescription for this Kool-Aid if that makes any sense.
Do you really think that there isn't a psychological component to this that perhaps is driven on the desire for attention at whatever cost? Caitlyn Jenner for example, is a trans-woman who was a completely irrelevant person until becoming trans after her Olympic notoriety long since faded. Then she goes on TV for interviews telling people she doesn't believe in gay marriage because she's a "traditionalist"? https://www.billboard.com/articles/...eres-caitlyn-jenner-gay-marriage-howard-stern
What I think is that the media has given the LBGTQ such a voice that they have started to go to incredible extremes to make sure the stay relevant. They got a bit of the spot light and now all of a sudden they don't want to loose it. At least this extreme said with the trans children ideas, and that transgender people have no rights, it's nonsense. Name me one law that applies to me but doesn't apply to a transperson. One law. There is some legislation on the books in a few states but those have more to do with not fucking with the natural growth and development of kids https://www.freedomforallamericans.org/2020-legislative-tracker/2020-anti-transgender-legislation/
So yeah, I ask questions. You guys have scientifically certified articles, reports, stats of your own. Feel free to show me. Because nobody has presented any of that to me, yet in the same breath demanded that I show my homework?
Call me transphobic then, but at least I'm making an effort to look into this stuff. My opinions develop from articles and videos that i've linked in this thread for everyone to see.
You disagree fine. You want to show me your own research and proof, please do! Let's have a genuine back and forth.
Keep in mind, I didn't and still don't come from a place of any kind of hate and from moment one I've been willing to look into all of this right along with you all. And in the end I'm just called a bigot. Ok gee thanks.
No you didn't. You're still as clueless as when you started this thread. See, that's the thing. You can't get over your own victim narrative. You had an actual trans person telling why the things you said were hurtful, but all you could think of was. "Waaaaaah, this is so unfair to ME!!!"
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And you should be. Pretending that these people don't exist is part of the problem. There's a percentage of people who are being harmed, and you're glossing over them, as if they are an acceptable sacrifice, as if their lives should be traded for yours.
It's like ordering a drone strike. You're thinking of the bad guys, but ignoring all the civilians within the blast radius. They're just collateral damage to you.
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It's not, you guys are acting as if we're advocating for everyone to just be able to take hormones like free candy when what we've been saying is that it should be allowed but along with extensive psychological evaluations, because I understand what that means, the HRT can be wildly different depending on what the person actually is, so we want the evaluation so that people can get the correct treatment.
Basically you're viewing it as if there's only one treatment, the one to change to the "opposite" sex, but there's not, there are a lot more, so a stupid questionaire to determine this (which is what the US) has right now isn't helpful, instead what we need is more detailed medical therapy that acknowledges everything in between, to make sure the right treatment is given, because a lot of non-binary people in particular receive the incorrect treatment, this system would also help catch the majority of these trenders you're so worried about, as it's unlikely a lie would hold up to extensive psychological evaluation if the professional is even remotely competent.
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We've gone over this, while we agree on the need for medical professionals I think saying solely by medical professionals is misguided, after all in order to consult the professional the child must have either shown signs of it that would cause their parents to take them to see one or have taken the decision to openly express what's going on, the way you say it makes it sound as if the child has no agency in this.
Furthermore the main problem with this issue is the culture around the gender binary, which causes them to think they're probably the "opposite" gender, when they could be something in between, looking at Elliot Page for example while he relates enough to the male experience to give himself male pronouns and a male name, he still claims they're non-binary, as such the medical procedures they would need are different than what a FTM transition would require, with likely lower doses of testosterone and possibly none or less estrogen inhibitors, this is why therapy is important, going full on FTM could cause extreme discomfort similar to how they felt when they were Female and likely generating some sort of impostor syndrome which is fairly common among non-binary folk, many of which are labelled as trans trenders, despite legitimately having problems, so if you want to know why I dislike the term, that's why.
Also it's important to note that even if the extensive psychological analysis becomes a requirement, proper treatment is often far more expensive than simply buying the hormones without a diagnosis, due to the wild availability of both estrogen and testosterone as over-the-counter pills for many things that I won't list because I'm not a doctor and I don't really know, they're actually fairly easy to get their hands on, so the problem you're talking about won't really go away regardless of what limitations you put on trans people, and putting those limitations in place would only be hurting trans people, so that's why I don't find the problem of the "trenders" to be particularly relevant to the discussion.
You honestly confuse Houseman, we've had some genuinely pleasant conversations but oftentimes you say truly horrifying stuff which makes me worried if everything's fine or if you're just so invested in this weird argumentative persona that you're willing to openly support genocide if it'll make the opponent angry, all I can say is that I don't really know you and I honestly have no idea when you're being sincere and when you aren't, which means I can't really know what I think about you.
I've gone over this already.
It's far more complicated than that, these things need to be widely available for other important health concerns so they can't really be regulated like alcohol, the best solution I can think of is to make the full treatment more widely available and easy to access to everyone, by which I mean including the psychological evaluation, and the only way to achieve that would be with some sort of government funded program (Whether that's through subsidies or government funded clinics) which let's be honest most people wouldn't agree with, because people hate healthcare government funded programs and also the topic is unfortunately still too controversial for it to be genuinely considered not to mention that planned parenthood which is who currently handles this in the USA is still very controversial.
I think that way of thinking simply fails to address the problem in any manner and I don't think you realise how oppressive and damaging it can be.
Again you're failing to acknowledge that the damage would be extremely expensive to undo, you have to pay for the psychological evaluations, the medical consults, the medicine, the surgeries and depending on who you are things like voice lessons, and multiple laser hair removal procedures, a lot of these things can be avoided if the treatment is taken on time, before adulthood, if we have the psychological evaluation and both the doctor, the patient and let's face it the legal guardians because we're talking about minors agree on this, I legitimately fail to see what the issue is, I do think the psychological treatment should be more extensive than it is at the moment, but it's genuinely the best solution.
We've addressed this already Houseman, it's not a binary problem and there's no reason why we shouldn't be discussing the other most likely better solutions, it's honestly frustrating to keep repeating this.
It's not that, I've addressed this issue above already.
Obviously, it's been torturing me for years, it would be hard for me to be unbiased, though it's not just mine I've spoken to a lot of trans people while going through this and there are a lot of things that relate more to their experiences than mine, but yes, I'm obviously biased, I don't think I've claimed to be objective.
I'm glad you brought up Mr. Page here because I want to ask you a straight up question about that.
Did Ellen wake up one day with the feelings of maybe they're a boy? Or has Elliot always been Elliot? Because I've seen arguments made when a trans person says they are male/female that in their heart they've always been that gender. So in theory Mr. Page has always been Mr. Page, always wanted to be Mr. Page. And only now has brought forth the courage to live his truth.
The reason I ask is does this mean that we have to protect Elliot continuing the role he plays on Umbrella Acadamy because that would mean a man is taking the role from a woman right? I mean people were very upset about Scarlett Johansen playing a transgender character, and we live in an age in which people are very determined to make sure that minority characters are portrayed by actors of that same minority. Therefore I guess Elliot will have to look for work elsewhere instead of taking a female role, after all we don't need more men taking more jobs from women right?
Also does that mean that every acting credit featuring Ellen Page is now effectively Deadnaming him? I guess they'll have to go back in retroactively patch the credits to feature the correct actor's name, as I understand that deadnaming is incredibly harmful and hateful.
Now I don't actually expect you to genuinely answer that stuff. It's probably too hard to explain and we can't have my cis-brain exploding. But you do see the general confusion this causes right? You have all these principals that the LBGTQ community rigidly demand to be followed and yet the degree in which this principals are applied in any given situation will vary. Elliot Page is the latest member of the community in which the rest of the congregation can lift up as yet another victory and yet another voice for the people.
So Elliot was a girl, played girls, exhibited girlish behavior, for the vast majority of the time that he's been in the public spotlight. In watching bloopers you can see this where in those moments of dropping character where you see the true person there you don't see any changes in posture, any signs of the man in that woman's body being trapped within.
Which begs the question of the gender identity being something that scientifically always a truth. In that Page was a man this whole time, just in the wrong body. Or if this is a physiological thing that manifests over years, through social influence, media, and peer pressure? The reason why I ask that, is Page's behavior dramatically changes if you watch his interviews over the course of time. In 2007 when Juno press was going on you see a talented girl in interviews. Later on you get interviews like this in he seems passionate, sure. But there has been a clear change in his view of the world, the way he holds himself.
And if someone who is an full grown adult can change themselves like this, how can anyone justify encouraging children to take such a leap when kids change their interests on a literal daily basis.
HBO has a documentary called Transhood about parents of trans children and one particular story in that documentary really gets to the point of my argument here. Little Phoenix is shown as a little boy who is trans male to female and there is a clip in the documentary in which her mother brings her to a chruch where the pastor makes a speech about accepting people for who they are. And Phoenix's mother brings her on stage to announce to the congregation that she is a girl with she/her pronouns. They give this kid a mic and tell Phoenix to let the world know and the kid keeps giving the mic back, clearly not interested in this. In which he mother keeps saying, "You're a girl now right, not a boy huh? Are you are a girl?"
Well fast forward a bit (this documentary was filmed over the course of a few years) and the mom is sitting on the lawn watching Phoenix riding his bike, because Phoenix at some point threw away the girl stuff and is living his life as he was born...a boy. His mother then explains that Phoenix made her go through every Facebook post, every family photo, and delete anything and everything that ever shown him wearing girl clothing, acting like a girl, or even being referred to as a girl. And the mom even goes so far as to say, "Kids can't be trans. It's only a behavior pushed on them and that was my fault. It had nothing to do with Phoenix or who he really was."
Can we at least, at the bare minimum find a common ground in that regard that a child should not be pushed into said behaviors or desires and certainly shouldn't be prevented from puberty?
If the kid wants to wear certain clothing, has gender opposite behaviors, whatever, fine. I'm okay with people letting that happen, if it's naturally chosen by the child. But there is a difference between letting kids just grow freely, and pushing them in a direction that the child has no right and no possible understanding of what is really happening.