New Fallout 4 patch patches out (some) shadows

[sonicneedslovetoo]

I honestly wonder if the performance could just be improved by better occlusion culling, I know there was a mod like that for Skyrim that could seriously help out performance.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Its not a big deal, but it is disappointing. Kind of a ham fisted fix, isn't it?

As a PC Master Racist, does this apply to all settings, or only lower end settings?

I just loaded it up to check, on my PC w/ max/ultra settings.

The lobby and office level(s) were fine, normal shadows as expected. But on the assembly floor, nothing. The only light source that still produced shadows was a burning waste barrel by the stairs near the door to roof. All the static lights and more bizarrely, the moving spotlights cast no shadows. It looks really, really weird. Even my character and Dogmeat were shadow free. Seeing the spotlights moving and no shadows is really fecking wierd. I never had any issues in there, but in a hamfisted approach to patching I have them gone because current gen consoles can't produce them at reasonable FPS. Is it locked to 30fps on consoles, out of interest? If it is, then it's a travesty.

Anyway, if there isn't one already, I'm sure there soon will be a mod to reinstate the shadow flags in there for PC gamers. I want to say something like that would prob require the toolset, but there is already a mod that turns shadows on for pipboy and power armour helmet lights, so it may well be doable in FO4Edit.

This is an admitted cranky over-reaction to your response but: OH MY FUCKING GOD, WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT FRAMES PER SECOND!

I see people constantly whine or praise this frame rate or that frame rate, unless the game is stuttering I litterally can not tell. Hell I still don't know what a screen tare is!! I've been playing video games for years, people complain about screen taring, I'm convinced at a certain point people just make up shit to care about.

This is not singling out you, you understand, but it's like I don't give a shit if the light source in one room is casting shadows or not. Hell, I'd doubt I've even noticed things producing shadows and I wouldn't be able to pick it out unless I saw them side by side.

The types of shit I care about is like the glitch that causes the game to break if you enter one area of the map OR a glitch I ran into where my power armor didn't go on the right way and I was locked out of both my pip boy, my weapons, and my ability to escape my robotic hell like I was trapped in a five nights at freddy suit.

I apologize for being a surly bastard, but there is no tangible difference between 30-60 frames.

Except that there is. You may not spot the difference, but there are millions of gamers who can and do. It is a difference in not only how a game looks, but how it responds to player action/input and is most apparent in fast-paced "twitch" games. I won't buy a PC game with a 30fps cap, at all. It is a sub-par product made by a company who were incapable or unwilling to make a game properly.

The issue with the shadows is a different one, and comes down to immersion. When playing a game like this and enjoying the atmosphere and environments, this stuff shatters the illusion. There is a blinding, moving spotlight shining right on my character and I know that there should be a shadow there, but there isn't. She's become a vampire. It is immersion breaking, particularly when it happens in one particular place and not others.

I'm personally also quite put off by things like headbob and the terrible FoVs console ports end up with on PC. The headbob in FO4 is horrible, particularly in power armour but it's *just* this side of playable for me (many other players however cannot play FO4 right now) and I'm very hopeful a way to disable it appears soon. FoV can cause motion sickness in people (as can head bob) sensitive to such things. I don't suffer it, but I hate, hate, hate low FoVs. If I cannot play at 80-85+ MINIMUM, 95-105 preferred, I will probably uninstall the game entirely. Sleeping Dogs and Mafia 2 are probably the only games I can name that I've played in spite of a terrible FoV, and those were good games let down by this issue. They would have been better without it. A PC game at 65-75 FoV is a horrible experience.

If you haven't seen screen tearing before, you either don't play many fast paced action games/FPSs or have Vsync on all the time. Without vsync and/or triple buffering, it can be quite apparent in many games. You can see it usually when moving your mouse quite fast around an environment (f.ex sweeping left-right, up-down, up-right diagonal to down-left diagonal, etc), usually a line across the screen, straight or slightly jagged (depending on the point at which the second frame started getting drawn).

These are real technical issues that affect games and gamers. You may be easily impressed and consider 30FPS generic set-piece games magnificent, but for many, many others issues such as FPS, FoV, headbob, tearing/artifacts/ghosting, shadows, immersion, responsiveness, UI, controls, loading times, AI, body/decal fade, LoD and what have you are important and noticeable when there's an issue.

I'm a console guy, so I've played probably everything you have on consoles. But I remember with Sleeping Dogs or Watch Dogs seeing all these comparison videos of 30 vs 60. I'm telling you, I don't see it. I've never had problems with FoV either, go figure.

The only thing to ever bug the shit out of me graphically was in GTAV on the 360, that little line on the side of road, when driving really fast it wouldn't load in as fast as I would like, so about 20 feet in front of the car it be an obvious blur. I was much more happier when I got the Xbox One and the line was no longer blurry.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I'm a console guy, so I've played probably everything you have on consoles. But I remember with Sleeping Dogs or Watch Dogs seeing all these comparison videos of 30 vs 60. I'm telling you, I don't see it. I've never had problems with FoV either, go figure.

The thing is that an FoV of 65-75 is used *for* the console version because it suits it. I cannot know your precise setup, but if you are like the majority of console gamers, you are likely sitting at least 4-5 feet away from your screen. At 4-5 feet or more, an FoV of 65-75 is fine and I've had no problem playing my 360 with that since I sit far enough away that it makes sense.

The issue is one of how much you see of the world relative to the distance you are from the screen and is based on how much our eyes *actually* see. This is hard to explain, but if you imagine a solid line projecting from your eyes into the distance on the very edges of what you can see (on the outside of your periphery) that's your total field of view. Now with a TV screen/monitor in your eye sight, imagine another pair of lines from your eyes to the edge of screen's image. The image on screen fills this portion of your vision and the angle of the lines at your eyes is the ideal FoV for the game, for you based on your distance from the screen.

From a distance of 4-5 feet or so away from the screen, a game with an FoV of 65-75ish will look about right. The amount of the world you see on screen is approximately how much your brain *expects* to see based on the distance you are from it. On a PC however, most of us sit within 2-3 feet of screens, they fill a much larger portion of our vision (the second pair of imaginary lines form a wider triangle to the edges of our monitors). As such, the angle of the in-game camera needs to be wider because we expect to be able to see more of the world based on how close we are to our screens. For me, this number is usually an FoV of between 95-105, give or take (depending on if there's any fisheye going on for one thing). Less than this, on a PC monitor and it *feels* like I'm playing a game with blinders on, like I have tunnel vision or another description would be like I'm looking through binoculars. It's like looking at a world through a keyhole with all the other information missing.

Some folks have no issue with it, I do. Since console games have these FoVs, if/when they make it to PC, they either need an in-game way to change it, a hack/mod/ini method to do it or something similar. If they don't (these are the ports I consider shoddy and lazy), I find them unplayable. It is too disconcerting and unpleasant an experience to be playing a game with tunnel vision. It doesn't look right and it's very uncomfortable. There are many games that do look right so I have no reason to waste my time on an unplayable, horrible experience. The issue stems because AAA games are made for consoles first and PC a distant, distant second and the ports can vary in quality from highly PC optimised and well done, to downright lazy, no work gone in to make it work for the platform.

 

[ninja51]

Just confirmation that the game was rushed out, in my opinion. Also confirmation that Bethesda never plans to actually fix issues like these in their games.

For a while it was just a real, but funny joke. "Bethesda games always have their special brand of bugs and glitches." That's great and all, but I think enough is enough. After so many years they should be doing better by now, not stick to the status quo. I'm kinda glad I didn't give in to the temptation to buy the game.

Nope, no confirmation whatsoever given, nor can your opinion the game was rushed out be any sort of valid when you've never played the game. Its fucking great, buy it, its got a lot of problems, but isn't even close to skimpy on content, nor does it feel rushed out at all.

 

[elvor0]

Its not a big deal, but it is disappointing. Kind of a ham fisted fix, isn't it?

As a PC Master Racist, does this apply to all settings, or only lower end settings?

I just loaded it up to check, on my PC w/ max/ultra settings.

The lobby and office level(s) were fine, normal shadows as expected. But on the assembly floor, nothing. The only light source that still produced shadows was a burning waste barrel by the stairs near the door to roof. All the static lights and more bizarrely, the moving spotlights cast no shadows. It looks really, really weird. Even my character and Dogmeat were shadow free. Seeing the spotlights moving and no shadows is really fecking wierd. I never had any issues in there, but in a hamfisted approach to patching I have them gone because current gen consoles can't produce them at reasonable FPS. Is it locked to 30fps on consoles, out of interest? If it is, then it's a travesty.

Anyway, if there isn't one already, I'm sure there soon will be a mod to reinstate the shadow flags in there for PC gamers. I want to say something like that would prob require the toolset, but there is already a mod that turns shadows on for pipboy and power armour helmet lights, so it may well be doable in FO4Edit.

This is an admitted cranky over-reaction to your response but: OH MY FUCKING GOD, WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT FRAMES PER SECOND!

I've been playing video games for years, people complain about screen taring, I'm convinced at a certain point people just make up shit to care about.

I apologize for being a surly bastard, but there is no tangible difference between 30-60 frames.

Clearly a lot of people except for you otherwise you wouldn't have responded the way you did. Y'know, given theres a small uproar everytime we get fed "30 FPS is more cinematic". Just because you don't care, that doesn't make it a fact.

If you can't see screen tearing then you...are either lying or being willfully ignorant. It's really, really noticeable when it occurs.

And yes there is. Mainly because I can easily see it by turning my head slightly to my left to see my wifes Fallout 4 running at 30, mine at 60. I feel like the old spice guy. That's a very, very bold statement to be making as a fact.

but it's like I don't give a shit if the light source in one room is casting shadows or not. Hell, I'd doubt I've even noticed things producing shadows and I wouldn't be able to pick it out unless I saw them side by side.

"I don't care so noone else should". Fine, if you don't care, cary on not caring, but for those that are able to play with all the bells and whistled turned on, it's a slap in the face for us. I don't want my bells and whistles taken away thank you very much. Besides, FO4 is pretty ugly, the shadows not only help immersion but they help disguise that.

I'm a console guy, so I've played probably everything you have on consoles. But I remember with Sleeping Dogs or Watch Dogs seeing all these comparison videos of 30 vs 60. I'm telling you, I don't see it. I've never had problems with FoV either, go figure.

And here is the crux: If you only console game, then you're not going to have FoV issues. For one you're sitting too far away for it to be an issue and you never have the option of adjustable FoV or much variance in it. But when you're used to sitting within half a meter of the screen and having 110 FoV, it being sliced down to 75 is helluva noticeable.

In fact, if you do only console game, it...kind of invalidates your arguments, because you're not in a position where you could even have even experienced these things and are used to a 30 lock. When you're used to running 120 FPS suddenly getting a 1/4 of those frames is seriously noticeable. Even 60 to 30 is jarring. Granted stability is helpful, but if you only play on consoles, you can't really argue that PC gamers don't experience these issues because you...haven't played on the PC. "I've not actually done any of this stuff, but I'm here to tell you you're all wrong and making shit up!" You're basically coming in here, getting worked out about something you "don't care about" not knowing what you're talking about and telling us we're all wrong and that we're making stuff up.

FoV too, just because you haven't had issues, don't mean other people don't have them either. Your entire argument hinges on you either not caring or not actually having experienced certain things and expecting everyone else should support your inexperienced opinion. I don't have issues with console gaming, but you shouldn't use it as a springboard for comparison with PC gaming.

I honestly wonder if the performance could just be improved by better occlusion culling, I know there was a mod like that for Skyrim that could seriously help out performance.

That could quite likely solve a lot of the issues, someone else mentioned shadows being cast under the map which obviously strains the GPU unnecessarily.

 

[sanquin]

Nope, no confirmation whatsoever given, nor can your opinion the game was rushed out be any sort of valid when you've never played the game. Its fucking great, buy it, its got a lot of problems, but isn't even close to skimpy on content, nor does it feel rushed out at all.

I have played it. A friend of mine did buy it, and of course I pestered him to let me try it as well. After 2 hours all I honestly saw was more of the same, with clunky and messy base building tacked on. I don't think it's a bad game, really. Just not worth my money to me. And I still think it was rushed. Not based on anything solid, but that's what it feels like to me.

 

[sanquin]

Nope, no confirmation whatsoever given, nor can your opinion the game was rushed out be any sort of valid when you've never played the game. Its fucking great, buy it, its got a lot of problems, but isn't even close to skimpy on content, nor does it feel rushed out at all.

I have played it. A friend of mine did buy it, and of course I pestered him to let me try it as well. After 2 hours all I honestly saw was more of the same, with clunky and messy base building tacked on. I don't think it's a bad game, really. Just not worth my money to me. And I still think it was rushed. Not based on anything solid, but that's what it feels like to me.

 

[DoPo]

Do you even own a 144 Hz monitor?

If you dont, going above 60 will have literally no advantage at all.

Umm, where does that post even mention going over 60 FPS?

 

[Zenja]

This console gen has been pretty sad to be honest. First, they were locking every game to 30 FPS intentionally lowering performance to "prove" that they upgraded the graphics. Now they are locking graphics options to "very low" in an area to 'optimize' performance. This should be an option in the graphics settings you can use as a work around until they fix the real problem, not an official fix. Hopefully this is a temporary fix and a later patch will restore it as well as fix whatever is eating up all the resources.

 

[Xeorm]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Normally, game developers will test areas to make sure the area performs at a reasonable level comparable to other areas. If an area requires additional stress, then something is adjusted to destress the area. Often by splitting it up or removing a few of the resource hogs. Or possibly changing the area entirely to keep it within standards.

This doesn't strike me as Bioware not having an efficient enough platform, but an area where they missed this area in their crucial testing stage. The area stresses the hardware too much, so needs a few changes. Changing the shadows is a quick band-aid fix while they come up with something more reasonable, I'm sure.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

The issue is one of how much you see of the world relative to the distance you are from the screen and is based on how much our eyes *actually* see.

This is part of the problem. The main problem is that low FoV causes "zoom in" effects, which is totally fine on Consoles as you are sitting some distance away and the zoom allows you to better make out details in front of you. If you sit close to your monitor it tends to cause nausea and headaches however, since you get the feeling that your character is constantly looking through a magnifying glass or binocular when walking around and it messes with your depth perception.

Higher FoVs ("zoomed out") gives you more peripheral vision but unless you are playing a competitive FPS it is only a minor gain compared to getting rid of the unnatural feeling of a low FoV.

 

[demoman_chaos]

Question, is it just me or did they sneakily change hacking as well? Before the update it wasn't really that uncommon to use the brackets to wipe out all duds (sometimes even having a few brackets left) but since the update more words seem to appear on the terminals rendering a full-wipe impossible. Novice terminals are often the worst since they can sport 20 some options now it seems. Did anyone else notice this, or am I just being paranoid?

-snip-

30-60 fps can be easily seen when you are running at 60 and it dips. I noticed a HUGE difference after I went from the PS3 version of Dark Souls to the PC version (After installing DSfix obviously, which delimits the framerate and fixes performance issues).

Easiest way to see it though:

Spoiler: Is by way of gif

Note how the 30 fps one trails behind, most obvious on the bottom set