New hard game comes out. Idiot press wants easy mode.
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I confess I'm not a fan of the frustration genre of gaming that Demon's Souls introduced. I really don't get how after working all day people enjoy coming home and getting irritated by multiple deaths. I feel as if there is a difference between challenge and annoying people.
To quote EA. "It provides players a sense of pride and accomplishment." Sure you see players rage at hard bosses, sure they died and get upset, but they keep at it and when they win, the rush is like nothing else.votemarvel said:
FromSoft's games are hard, that is the gaming niche they appeal to and that's what they now thrive on. Someone said it above, but the challenge in these games is the point. I believe they WANT players to feel that rush of a hard boss finally defeated.
It was also said, it would be like if someone asked for a not scary mode in a scary game. What would Five Nights at Freedys be like if the player could disable the jump scares? All tension is lost and the point of the game is gone.
You can house rule boardgames however you want. But eliminating the challenge of the game with special rules kind defeats the purpose of playing? Why bother setting up all the pieces if you are just going to say you win and put it away without actually playing the game?
And what about games that are competitive like League of Legends? How could someone reasonbly demand "i wanna fight other people but i want them to go easy on me."? PvP games are some of the hardest games ive ever played, other players delight and stomping you into dirt. They dont care if it is your first time or 10000th time, they play to beat you. Yet you cant demand easy modes on that can you? Oh sure play with bots, but that removes the spirit of the game and the experience is very very different.
The same can be said about a FromSoft game. The difficulty is baked into the core of what those games are and removing that removes the game's spirit. Either try to overcome the difficulty or play a different game. Not everything can apply to everyone nor should it. Trying only dilutes the end product, as seen in other focusgrouped to death games.
Hard games are only frustrating until you get good basically. Then they're incredibly rewarding, proportionally to how hard they are. The more you die to something the more gratifying it feels to finally win.
The reason I think people call others bad at these games when they say they don't like them is because to dislike the game implies you never got to that part where you're good enough and feel gratified.
The reason I think people call others bad at these games when they say they don't like them is because to dislike the game implies you never got to that part where you're good enough and feel gratified.
That's the standard opinion so you don't need to argue with people about it. You just need to deem those who disagree as silly in the same way one deems modern practitioners of the Olympian religion or wickens as silly. (yes there's some of those still)Saelune said:
From what I remember I believe that the reason the Souls games were so hard was not because the creators wanted a hard game but because they wanted a certain kind of world and the world that they created was one that would be brutal and hard. Sekiro seems to be going the same route where the difficulty is mean to emphasize the narrative and story so in this particular case I'd say that the game shouldn't have an easier setting because it's meant to accentuate the scenario.
Something like Devil May Cry though, does and should have easier difficulties because the game is much more about being flashy, and the increased difficulties are meant to give people a way to challenge themselves to earn their flashiness.
Then there's Celeste where the whole story is meant to be about overcoming difficulties but in an encouraging way. It's meant to be about trying to improve yourself but with a more hands off and supportive way. A major theme is dealing with depression and the more comforting nature of the way it presents its difficulty suits the game.
And then there's something like the Shin Megami Tensei games and their spin offs which I feel really need easier difficulties because so much of the difficulty is about knowing what you need to do and then spending huge amounts of time creating a team to accomplish this and the amount of time is too much in my opinion. I feel like games that have a certain amount of execution to their difficulty feel better when they ARE very hard where as games that are just about knowing what you need to do and also requiring a big time investment feel infuriating when they're really hard.
Something like Devil May Cry though, does and should have easier difficulties because the game is much more about being flashy, and the increased difficulties are meant to give people a way to challenge themselves to earn their flashiness.
Then there's Celeste where the whole story is meant to be about overcoming difficulties but in an encouraging way. It's meant to be about trying to improve yourself but with a more hands off and supportive way. A major theme is dealing with depression and the more comforting nature of the way it presents its difficulty suits the game.
And then there's something like the Shin Megami Tensei games and their spin offs which I feel really need easier difficulties because so much of the difficulty is about knowing what you need to do and then spending huge amounts of time creating a team to accomplish this and the amount of time is too much in my opinion. I feel like games that have a certain amount of execution to their difficulty feel better when they ARE very hard where as games that are just about knowing what you need to do and also requiring a big time investment feel infuriating when they're really hard.
- Feb 7, 2011
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So I'm one of those people that thinks putting an easy mode into Dark Souls is stupid, but hear me out:
Dark Souls is not hard.
I know this is shocking to some people, but the Souls games are not actually mechanically difficult, what they are is punishing. People aren't used to the idea of dying and losing progress. It's just not something that really exists in the checkpoint heavy games that we currently have. So when they die in Dark Souls and get warped to the beginning of the zone and have lost their hard earned Souls it freaks them out, and it makes them anxious when they play because they're afraid that any mistake is going to cost them all their souls and progress again. This anxiety then makes them worse at the game, which in turn causes them to die more (the most common way people get killed is panic healing). The moment you realize that your souls don't matter (and they really don't, there's enough soul items and bosses drop enough souls for you to easily level enough to keep pace with the difficulty) the games become infinitely easier.
Dark Souls also isn't about mechanical difficulty. You don't have to have lightning fast reflexes to do well at Dark Souls. The combat is slow, heavy, plodding, there's even purposeful delay on your inputs. It doesn't matter how slow your reaction time is, Dark Souls is slower. Winning in Dark Souls just takes proper positioning and being able to read enemy aggression.
Add to that the fact that ALL enemies in the souls games are slower than you, and the fact that you can summon NPCs and other players for bosses means that there is already a built in easy mode for Souls games. You don't have to beat the boss, you just have to be able to run to the summon sign and summon help. In fact, NPC summons are so good in souls games they can sometimes beat bosses for you single-handed. Solaire can straight up beat the bell gargoyles for you, Tarkus can kill the Iron Golum in like 5 hits by himself, etc. In Dark Souls 1 you can also get the master key to start the game, which allows you to entirely bypass some of the more difficult areas of the game if you so choose. Making the enemies do less damage and have less health would just make the game kind of boring in my opinion.
Making the enemies weaker in Souls games would also undermine some of the core themes of the game. The themes being that your character is actually shit, and wins entirely through perseverance. They don't win because they're the chosen one, they don't win because they're super powerful and stomped everyone else into submission. They win because they didn't give up, and everyone who does give up goes hollow. Essentially people who ask for an easy mode in Dark Souls just don't understand Dark Souls.
Having said that, Sekiro is a completely different beast than Dark Souls. It's significantly harder than Dark Souls, and that difficulty is actually down to mechanical skill and reflexes. It's much more of an action game. You have to be able to perfectly parry, and read attack animations and react to them very quickly, and a lot of the attack animations are quite difficult to read and can easily be mistaken for each other. There is also a hard mode in Sekiro (you can ring a bell that "curses" you and causes enemies to become stronger in exchange for giving you more drops and EXP, so I don't see why there can't be an easier mode where enemies do less damage, and in exchange give less exp and fewer drops. You'd still have to learn the combat, but there would be a bit more forgiveness in that missing a parry wouldn't mean instant death.
Dark Souls is not hard.
I know this is shocking to some people, but the Souls games are not actually mechanically difficult, what they are is punishing. People aren't used to the idea of dying and losing progress. It's just not something that really exists in the checkpoint heavy games that we currently have. So when they die in Dark Souls and get warped to the beginning of the zone and have lost their hard earned Souls it freaks them out, and it makes them anxious when they play because they're afraid that any mistake is going to cost them all their souls and progress again. This anxiety then makes them worse at the game, which in turn causes them to die more (the most common way people get killed is panic healing). The moment you realize that your souls don't matter (and they really don't, there's enough soul items and bosses drop enough souls for you to easily level enough to keep pace with the difficulty) the games become infinitely easier.
Dark Souls also isn't about mechanical difficulty. You don't have to have lightning fast reflexes to do well at Dark Souls. The combat is slow, heavy, plodding, there's even purposeful delay on your inputs. It doesn't matter how slow your reaction time is, Dark Souls is slower. Winning in Dark Souls just takes proper positioning and being able to read enemy aggression.
Add to that the fact that ALL enemies in the souls games are slower than you, and the fact that you can summon NPCs and other players for bosses means that there is already a built in easy mode for Souls games. You don't have to beat the boss, you just have to be able to run to the summon sign and summon help. In fact, NPC summons are so good in souls games they can sometimes beat bosses for you single-handed. Solaire can straight up beat the bell gargoyles for you, Tarkus can kill the Iron Golum in like 5 hits by himself, etc. In Dark Souls 1 you can also get the master key to start the game, which allows you to entirely bypass some of the more difficult areas of the game if you so choose. Making the enemies do less damage and have less health would just make the game kind of boring in my opinion.
Making the enemies weaker in Souls games would also undermine some of the core themes of the game. The themes being that your character is actually shit, and wins entirely through perseverance. They don't win because they're the chosen one, they don't win because they're super powerful and stomped everyone else into submission. They win because they didn't give up, and everyone who does give up goes hollow. Essentially people who ask for an easy mode in Dark Souls just don't understand Dark Souls.
Having said that, Sekiro is a completely different beast than Dark Souls. It's significantly harder than Dark Souls, and that difficulty is actually down to mechanical skill and reflexes. It's much more of an action game. You have to be able to perfectly parry, and read attack animations and react to them very quickly, and a lot of the attack animations are quite difficult to read and can easily be mistaken for each other. There is also a hard mode in Sekiro (you can ring a bell that "curses" you and causes enemies to become stronger in exchange for giving you more drops and EXP, so I don't see why there can't be an easier mode where enemies do less damage, and in exchange give less exp and fewer drops. You'd still have to learn the combat, but there would be a bit more forgiveness in that missing a parry wouldn't mean instant death.
What's so bad about that? Obviously the developers don't have the obligation to add an easy mode to their game and they're well in their right to say "It's as hard as it is, suck it nerds" but neither is it a crime to state that you wish there was one. It's just a well intentioned suggestion. What's,s the point of criticism if we're just gonna dismiss a person's opinion on principle?
?Man, I like what this game is going for. I wish I could see more of it. Maybe an easy mode??
?No, fuck you, no.?
Flash backs to the Mega Man easy mode flame wars. As in, literally the same arguments.
Clearly, Mega Man didn?t suffer for it.
?No, fuck you, no.?
Flash backs to the Mega Man easy mode flame wars. As in, literally the same arguments.
Clearly, Mega Man didn?t suffer for it.
Because more people being able to experience the story and world of a game you like is terrible, yes.
It's not like it's giving them a leg up in multiplayer against you. Maybe they like the world or the sound of the story or the general aesthetics. Maybe they actually like the combat system, but the game as it stands is a bit too demanding on their reflexes or their patience?
Not everyone has time to die a bunch to every boss and "master" a game. People have jobs, kids, family commitments, etc.
Getting frothing mad at the concept of more people being able to enjoy a game you like is the type of gatekeeping behaviour gamers are notorious for.
Let people enjoy themselves. It doesn't impact on your fun, you can still play it how you want.
It's not like it's giving them a leg up in multiplayer against you. Maybe they like the world or the sound of the story or the general aesthetics. Maybe they actually like the combat system, but the game as it stands is a bit too demanding on their reflexes or their patience?
Not everyone has time to die a bunch to every boss and "master" a game. People have jobs, kids, family commitments, etc.
Getting frothing mad at the concept of more people being able to enjoy a game you like is the type of gatekeeping behaviour gamers are notorious for.
Let people enjoy themselves. It doesn't impact on your fun, you can still play it how you want.
Adding an easy mode to FromSoft games would defeat the whole point of them. Without the difficulty, the feeling of constant danger and impending doom just wouldn't exist. Persevering and learning through failure is what these games are about. If you could just walk up to a boss and beat it first time, you would be entirely missing the FromSoft experience.
You could opt to not play on easy mode, you know. That sense of constant danger and impending doom would still exist if you played on Normal or harder. Even if someone playing on Easy would mean they'd be entirely missing the Fromsoft experience, why would you care?Bilious Green said:
Exactly this. An 'easy mode' would undermine the entire vision behind the game; not just overcoming the challenge but also the oppressive and sinister atmosphere. The beauty about Fromsoft games is how well gameplay mechanics and art and world design is put together and integrated in a way they reinforce themselves. The challenge is what carries the entire experience, you take that away and the game stops being special. And people will resort to easy mode at the slightest hint of frustration. This would evaporate the game's methodical approach which sets it apart from it's contemporaries and renders it just another action game forgotten about in a week. Fromsoft games are an acquired taste, but again, that is what makes them unique and easy mode would neutralize that effect and revert it back to a bland taste similarly to every other (action) game.Bilious Green said:
I also disagree Fromsoft games are necessarily 'difficult'. They are challenging for sure but also predictable and methodical so they can be completed by anyone willing to put in the time and effort. People love Fromsoft games so much b/c the games provide a sense of intimacy with the world and gameplay mechanics that can only result by engaging with it on a deep level. If you could rush through it like every other game then what is the point? It would be completely unmemorable.
I really don't get the complaints about Fromsoft games being too hard either. If you don't enjoy that kind of experience go play something else, literally every month new games come out that all have easy modes. Not everything is for everybody and that is fine.
Radical thoughts. A. Not everyone cares. B. Everyone is on their own level and to some, an easy mode would still be challenging.Bilious Green said:
The heck are you on about?Kerg3927 said:
Literally, this is only a problem if you ever press easy mode. If From only did Easy mode, I'd agree with you.stroopwafel said:
Otherwise, it will never effect you. Like ever.
It's like a heterosexual banning homosexuality because they don't like relationships that way and no one should have it.
Because they are children. Because they are entitled (word used specifically to trigger, because it works.) Because they don't have to ration their time or even resources. I was that way when I was a kid. Back when I had the spare time to beat massive grindfests and dedicate hours and hours to games. Almost everybody grows out of this kind of "git gud" childish mindset. Only the worst and most annoying of the lot remain as entitled into when the rest of us enter adulthood. When the rest of us realize how someone else plays a game doesn't affect us.Tanis said:
I personally wouldn't care; I don't really much care about the whole "git gud" aspect of many games, but I've been gaming since the 80's when games were way harder than even FromSoft's games, so my tolerance for beating my face against difficulty is probably higher than most. However, I think that FromSoft games are an unusual case where reducing the difficulty would take away a fundamental part of what makes them good. Sure, someone could play on "easy" mode, but they would not be experiencing the game the way the people who play it on the intended difficulty would, and they would not be experiencing the game the way the creators intended. Given how many times we have heard this complaint about the barriers to entry of FromSoft games, I think its safe to assume that FromSoft have made a conscious decision to stick their creative vision and not include difficulty options. Some people might not like it, but this is how FromSoft want to make their games, and they shouldn't be expected to change it. There is nothing wrong with FromSoft games being a niche for the hardcore; not all games have to be for everyone.Casual Shinji said:
That's not how you stated it though. You claimed having an easy mode would defeat the purpose to the games. "Persevering and learning through failure" is pretty much saying 'git gud'.Bilious Green said:
Fromsoft should make games however they want to make 'm, it's the fanbase that gets protective and insulted at the mere mention of an Easy mode. Almost as if it hurts their pride. Again, an Easy mode would not take away YOUR way of playing the game, it would not take away a fundemental part of what makes them good, only add a different way for more casual players to enjoy it.
And since when is experiencing the game as intended by the developers so ironclad? PC gaming prides itself on modding and changing games to suit the needs of the player. Is this ruining those games as well, or is it simply an option should you want it? I mean, do you get mad at the idea of people who watch let's plays of Souls games, or who look up strategy videos to defeat a Boss as well? That's not how the developers intended for you to experience the game either.