New hard game comes out. Idiot press wants easy mode.

[Baffle]

I explained 3 times now how the challenge in Fromsofware games is an essential part of it's creative vision but let me re-iterate in a way you understand: challenge is no challenge if it's optional.

Of course it is -- you've got the double challenge of not succumbing to using easy-mode; really, it's extra challenging and anyone arguing against it is just scared they'll fail at not using easy-mode. It's a weird thing to be scared about, but we all have our quirks I guess.

 

[CritialGaming]

I suppose all board games should play as simply as checkers too, or all novels should read at an adolescent level. Or hell, maybe all recipes in a cookbook should have an easy bake option because it wouldn?t change a damn thing right...?!

Oddly enough the same site has an argument against DS3 having an easy mode [https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2016/04/07/no-dark-souls-3-shouldnt-have-an-easy-mode-and-it-sort-of-already-does/#4bb0a8334d75] from another writer (who seems like far more of a SoulsBorne fan from what I?ve read). I?m guessing staff parties would be fun there.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Not every game is for everyone. No one is asking for a hard mode in Easy games.

First of all, if a game is easy it'll usually have a difficulty slider so you can make it harder. Secondly, yes they are, as the most general complaint of an easy game is that it's too easy. Some games even get harder difficulties patched in down the line, like The Last of Us and Spider-Man.

 

[stroopwafel]

Not every game is for everyone. No one is asking for a hard mode in Easy games.

First of all, if a game is easy it'll usually have a difficulty slider so you can make it harder. Secondly, yes they are, as the most general complaint of an easy game is that it's too easy. Some games even get harder difficulties patched in down the line, like The Last of Us and Spider-Man.

Yeah, and having difficulty shoved in as an afterthought really makes those games a whole lot better. This is actually the best argument why an 'easy mode' is such a bad idea in Fromsoft games, it's fake and artificial and the game was never designed for it.

 

[Erttheking]

I explained 3 times now how the challenge in Fromsofware games is an essential part of it's creative vision but let me re-iterate in a way you understand: challenge is no challenge if it's optional.

....False. Ok? False. Or are you saying every time I chose to play on a harder difficulty mode, it wasn't actually a challenge? That Dark Souls II's champion convent isn't really a challenge?

Again you fail to make the difference between a challenge that is deliberate and well designed from the ground up as the game is actually being developed and a difficulty that is mostly artificial by simply ramping up the numbers.

So in other words, that's a yes. Also you assume all difficulty changes are that, and that's simply not how it works. Bad difficulty options do that, and they get criticized for it. More limited resources, smarter A.I., and limited saves are also part of hard difficulty. I'll ask you again. Is Dark Souls II's champion convent not an actual challenge?

 

[Casual Shinji]

I suppose all board games should play as simply as checkers too, or all novels should read at an adolescent level. Or hell, maybe all recipes in a cookbook should have an easy bake option because it wouldn?t change a damn thing right...?!

Should the option be possible, what's the big deal? You're acting like giving players an easier option would change the game irrevocably. It wouldn't detract it would add, an addition you can easily ignore. Or are Soulsborne fans really that scared of being tempted by an Easy mode? I've started and finished plenty of games on a harder difficulty without switching over to an easier mode when I was getting killed over and over.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Out of interest, do the people who think that adding an easier mode is a bad idea oppose modding communities? A lot of mods change the difficulty of games, after all.

 

[Silvanus]

I love FromSoft games, and wouldn't use an easy mode if one existed.

I'm still in favour of its inclusion, though, because it's a bloody option. I can choose not to use it. You'd surely have to be pretty myopic to object to other people getting a gameplay option that doesn't impact your own playthrough at all.

 

[Baffle]

I suppose all board games should play as simply as checkers too, or all novels should read at an adolescent level. Or hell, maybe all recipes in a cookbook should have an easy bake option because it wouldn?t change a damn thing right...?!

No, because that fundamentally changes the item to be different for ALL users -- it affects all users' experiences as those changes cannot be optional.

You can't make a board game as simple as draughts because you would have to fundamentally change the game FOR ALL USERS. You can, however, have optional rulesets, and some games do. Not seeing the outcry about that...

You can't make the same book read at an adolescent level for one person but not another, as the words on the page aren't optional. If you change them for the kids, they'll be different for the adult.

You can't have an easy-bake option for all recipes because that's just not how cooking works.

I guess what I'm saying is that none of your analogies work and none address the issue of this being optional.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Not every game is for everyone. No one is asking for a hard mode in Easy games.

First of all, if a game is easy it'll usually have a difficulty slider so you can make it harder. Secondly, yes they are, as the most general complaint of an easy game is that it's too easy. Some games even get harder difficulties patched in down the line, like The Last of Us and Spider-Man.

Yeah, and having difficulty shoved in as an afterthought really makes those games a whole lot better. This is actually the best argument why an 'easy mode' is such a bad idea in Fromsoft games, it's fake and artificial and the game was never designed for it.

Who fucking cares? You're not even gonna touch it anyway! Did it ruin the difficulties that were present from day one? No. Where people crying 'Spider-Man is ruined now that there's a harder difficulty patched in'? No.

Also, you think Fromsoftware games are some perfect balance in difficulty? They're really not. An Easy mode in Sekiro could consist of a camera and a lock-on that aren't crap.

 

[Baffle]

Do you want to ban Braille next, because blind people aren't trying hard enough? They're ruining books for the rest of us! There's fucking bumps everywhere!

 

[Erttheking]

Do you want to ban Braille next, because blind people aren't trying hard enough? They're ruining books for the rest of us! There's fucking bumps everywhere!

Also, I have an abridged copy of Romance of the Three Kingdoms on my bookshelf and read an abridged copy of Le Miserables in high-school. Should that have not been allowed?

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Perhaps a new addition to the ESRB rating is in order. 'WARNING: Very difficult. Do not play if you are not an expert at video games.'

I tried to enjoy Dark Souls. I really did, both it and the sequel. But the detail and charm of the environments was lost after having to wander through the same place for the 100th time because a boss sneezed on me. More relevantly, I feel like the hollowfication mechanic seems to work in the opposite way it logically should; the more times you die in the same place, the more you will want to summon an ally or two to help and perhaps show you how to do it right by example (or just die uselessly, saw a fair bit of that happening in my 60+ hours). In other words, make summon signs your optional easy mode, more of them appearing the more you die. Sort of like Super Kong mode in Donkey Kong Country Returns- it doesn't just help, it teaches.

Not exactly clear how Sekiro handles that mechanic, but it's hardly the only one that could benefit from such an option.

Oh, and for the record I've beaten SMT Nocturne, SMTIV, every Mega Man game and all the God of Wars except the newest one. Those I would consider tough but fair, but DS1/2 leap over the hypothetical line early and don't show any sign of heading back.

 

[stroopwafel]

I explained 3 times now how the challenge in Fromsofware games is an essential part of it's creative vision but let me re-iterate in a way you understand: challenge is no challenge if it's optional.

....False. Ok? False. Or are you saying every time I chose to play on a harder difficulty mode, it wasn't actually a challenge? That Dark Souls II's champion convent isn't really a challenge?

Again you fail to make the difference between a challenge that is deliberate and well designed from the ground up as the game is actually being developed and a difficulty that is mostly artificial by simply ramping up the numbers.

So in other words, that's a yes. Also you assume all difficulty changes are that, and that's simply not how it works. Bad difficulty options do that, and they get criticized for it. More limited resources, smarter A.I., and limited saves are also part of hard difficulty. I'll ask you again. Is Dark Souls II's champion convent not an actual challenge.

DkS2 is kind of an outlier as it wasn't as well made as the other games. Challenge means having to adapt and learn not being hit on the head by frustration of bosses that get duplicated for 'difficulty' sake. If you think adding extra 'difficulty' to already poor design decisions then I guess your interpretation of challenge is a different one from mine. I like challenging games not frustrating ones. Maybe another person's challenge is to play Dark Souls with one hand and their dick out. Fine by me, but not my idea of a fun challenge.

Again the other Fromsoft games showed how different a challenge is when it's part of the game's creative vision rather than the artificial difficulty slider of other games. One is fun and rewarding and makes the experience the other mostly frustrating and adds nothing to the experience only tedium. Having an easy mode therefore does diminishes the experience in Fromsoft games as they are so deliberately designed around challenge that the design itself has to be changed to accommodate those players. Easy mode would therefore take away these games' identity, what makes them unique and radically change not only the format but also the entire creative vision behind it.

No other games have such deliberate focus, and easy mode would undo that. The games would just be something like Devil May Cry where the higher difficulties just aren't in any way rewarding. Very fun game regardless, but not really in any way memorable the way Fromsoft games are.

 

[Kerg3927]

Jealousy, the shadow of greed that is.

The heck are you on about?

I'm not a religious person, but I'm saying that a lot of these people complaining are just Cain wanting to kill Abel because they are jealous of his success, even though it's just success playing a video game. I don't think they give a sh*t about the poor, low-skilled gamer who supposedly can't play these games because they're not talented enough or the poor, pressed-for-time gamer who supposedly can only play games that they can breeze through quickly and effortlessly. I think mainly, they just don't like successful people who feel pride in their accomplishments, even video game accomplishments, and so they want to take them down a notch and take their source of pride away from them out of pure jealousy.

And yes, I think they are being greedy, considering that 99% of games out there are either inherently easy or have an easy mode, but they're not happy because they want that other 1% to change to suit them, too. I don't give a sh*t about 90% of the games out there, but I'm not trying to change those games... I just don't play them. I don't understand why those who don't like games without easy modes don't just do the same, instead of feeling entitled to having EVERYTHING their way.

From Software has a formula that works. That is indisputable. It's one of the great success stories of the past decade and other companies are trying to emulate it. They FORCE players overcome challenges, and then those players who overcome those challenges are rewarded with a sense of pride in their accomplishments, and they in turn LOVE From Software for it and will likely be first day buyers of the next game the company makes. This model has generated incredible success and brand loyalty for the company. They would be stupid to change it, so why demand it of them? Let them make their games the way they want.

Besides, and I think From well understands this, when you give people an easy mode, many weak-willed players will be tempted to use it, and then after they've breezed through the game, they'll be like meh, this game is boring and way overrated, and they'll turn around and trash the game in reviews, etc. And in the process they'll have been ROBBED of the great experience of beating the game as intended and feeling that sense of pride. Why in the hell would From want that? The absence of an easy mode is to PROTECT weak-willed players from ruining their own game experience.

People climb mountains because they want to be able to stand atop the summit, look around with pride at the vast view, and say, I freaking did it... I did something that not everyone can do... and now I'm seeing a view that most will never see. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It taps into everyone's competitive nature to want to stand out from the crowd in their success after they have put forth great effort to accomplish something. If every tall mountain on the planet had an elevator taking you to the top, the accomplishment of the mountain climber would be diminished. It just would. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to feel special when you've accomplished something you've worked hard for.

From Software built the mountain. They own it. They don't have to put an elevator in it if they don't want to. And why would they, when it might destroy their very successful business model?

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Not every game is for everyone. No one is asking for a hard mode in Easy games.

First of all, if a game is easy it'll usually have a difficulty slider so you can make it harder. Secondly, yes they are, as the most general complaint of an easy game is that it's too easy. Some games even get harder difficulties patched in down the line, like The Last of Us and Spider-Man.

Like I said earlier, if the point of a game is to be hard, having it not-be-hard defeats the point.
Likewise scary. Should horror games have a 'not scary' mode for gamers and reviewers who don't like horror games, but still want to play horror games?
And indeed how can said critic give an accurate review of the game if, by definition, he's not playing it the way its meant to be played?

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

Why is this a problem?
So someone thinks a game is too hard for them, wants an easier mode. That's fair. Do the devs want to implement it? Yes? Problem solved. No? Tough titty. "Git gud", play a different game.

Likewise scary. Should horror games have a 'not scary' mode for gamers and reviewers who don't like horror games, but still want to play horror games?

Sure, why not? Mass Effect...2 or 3, had an "storytelling mode" or whatever was it called, that effectively axed half of the gameplay leaving you with clickable cutscenes. No one cared after a while.

And indeed how can said critic give an accurate review of the game if, by definition, he's not playing it the way its meant to be played?

They leave an addendum saying "Hey, i played this with baby mode turned on", so people who scoff at baby modes can just ignore the review.
And if they don't mention it... well, i assume if said baby mode makes a difference, people will be able to tell.

 

[Erttheking]

Jealousy, the shadow of greed that is.

The heck are you on about?

I'm not a religious person, but I'm saying that a lot of these people complaining are just Cain wanting to kill Abel because they are jealous of his success, even though it's just success playing a video game.

Gonna have to stop you right there. Now. I'm only going to say this once, so please listen.

No one is jealous over how good you are in a video game.

I always had a feeling that the opposition to an easy mode in Dark Souls was steeped in people taking the game way too seriously, this confirms it in my book. This is why even though I got Dark Souls when it came out and loved it to death, I barely associate with the fandom outside of VaatiVidya and his work. I cannot stand all the self-important elitism.

DkS2 is kind of an outlier as it wasn't as well made as the other games. Challenge means having to adapt and learn not being hit on the head by frustration of bosses that get duplicated for 'difficulty' sake. If you think adding extra 'difficulty' to already poor design decisions then I guess your interpretation of challenge is a different one from mine. I like challenging games not frustrating ones. Maybe another person's challenge is to play Dark Souls with one hand and their dick out. Fine by me, but not my idea of a fun challenge.

Again the other Fromsoft games showed how different a challenge is when it's part of the game's creative vision rather than the artificial difficulty slider of other games. One is fun and rewarding and makes the experience the other mostly frustrating and adds nothing to the experience only tedium. Having an easy mode therefore does diminishes the experience in Fromsoft games as they are so deliberately designed around challenge that the design itself has to be changed to accommodate those players. Easy mode would therefore take away these games' identity, what makes them unique and radically change not only the format but also the entire creative vision behind it.

No other games have such deliberate focus, and easy mode would undo that. The games would just be something like Devil May Cry where the higher difficulties just aren't in any way rewarding. Very fun game regardless, but not really in any way memorable the way Fromsoft games are.

"If you think adding extra 'difficulty' to already poor design decisions then I guess your interpretation of challenge is a different one from mine." Except I didn't say that. At all. Don't strawman me, it does nothing to help your argument.

I agree that Dark Souls avoids the frustration of a lot of other hard games. I just don't think it's so utterly perfect that to tweak it a bit one way or another would cause it all to collapse. Serious question. Optional difficulty mode to start with a few more Estus flasks. Would that ruin the game? Not really. Because the idea behind an easy mode, as I've said before, is that an easy mode can still be challenging. Just not as challenging. Honestly, the way you talk about Dark Souls makes it sound like it's so fragile that the slightest change would ruin it forever. As if it's not built around a rock solid core. It is.

 

[Fappy]

Perhaps a new addition to the ESRB rating is in order. 'WARNING: Very difficult. Do not play if you are not an expert at video games.'

I tried to enjoy Dark Souls. I really did, both it and the sequel. But the detail and charm of the environments was lost after having to wander through the same place for the 100th time because a boss sneezed on me. More relevantly, I feel like the hollowfication mechanic seems to work in the opposite way it logically should; the more times you die in the same place, the more you will want to summon an ally or two to help and perhaps show you how to do it right by example (or just die uselessly, saw a fair bit of that happening in my 60+ hours). In other words, make summon signs your optional easy mode, more of them appearing the more you die. Sort of like Super Kong mode in Donkey Kong Country Returns- it doesn't just help, it teaches.

Not exactly clear how Sekiro handles that mechanic, but it's hardly the only one that could benefit from such an option.

Oh, and for the record I've beaten SMT Nocturne, SMTIV, every Mega Man game and all the God of Wars except the newest one. Those I would consider tough but fair, but DS1/2 leap over the hypothetical line early and don't show any sign of heading back.

Hardcore JRPGs tend to require a different set of skills to overcome than games like Darksouls. Mega Man is an apt comparison though. I would consider Dark Souls 1 more obtuse than overtly difficult. It's hard for me to remember a time when I struggled on the game though since I've played it so much.

EDIT: That said, I would consider Nocturne harder than DS 1&2. It is probably similar in difficulty to DS3 and Bloodborne (not including DLC). Sekiro is much harder than all of the above.

Outside of a small handful of fights I don't really consider SMT IV or its direct sequel all that hard.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Again you fail to make the difference between a challenge that is deliberate and well designed from the ground up as the game is actually being developed and a difficulty that is mostly artificial by simply ramping up the numbers.

Challenge varies from player to player as well as game design. I personally found the Souls games to be joke easy so I guess I didn't experience the games the way they were intended either. Just like Souls default difficulty is easy for me, an Easy mode will still be more challenging for some players than the games were for me on Normal. IMO, From failed at everything the Souls games are supposed to be with regards to game design. Sekiro is actually the type of combat that I always heard about Souls, which is combat that forces to play to learn enemy attacks/animations and the combat is also more deliberate in the sense that every time you press R1 to attack you have to be mindful of your animations and you can just mash R1 like you can in a Souls game.

I suppose all board games should play as simply as checkers too, or all novels should read at an adolescent level. Or hell, maybe all recipes in a cookbook should have an easy bake option because it wouldn?t change a damn thing right...?!

You can change any and all rules of a board game, retail Monopoly for one NEVER included the actual rules of the game. Books and cooking aren't games, but anyway there's CliffsNotes for books and the skill needed to cook something doesn't directly equate to better flavor either (baking is basically a science vs a skill, cooking meat is basically simple math).

Like I said earlier, if the point of a game is to be hard, having it not-be-hard defeats the point.

Well, From failed at making Souls hard so I guess playing Souls is pointless already, what's an easy mode going to ruin when it's already ruined?