New Overwatch Hero Is a Response to Body-Type Diversity Criticism

[Chriss_m]

I'm as anti-SJW as you can be, and I greiviously lament that it is their incessant hectoring that has spurred this change. Because, actually, I'd much rather the company had come to these conclusions themselves.

You see, as much as I can't stand the imposing zealots who make up the ranks of Social Justice Warriors, I do actually appreciate diversity. And in a game like this, there's really no reason not to represent as many different shapes, shades, and sizes as possible. And, in fact, this is the way toward diversity: companies not being kowtowed into censoring their current characters, or bowing to pressure to restrict the types of bodies women are 'allowed' to have in games (no tits, no hips, no thighs, etc); but instead, through encouragement, having them experiment and introduce as much diversity to character design as possible - but always through their choice.

So although I don't like how this has come about, I do like the diversity in character design. It keeps things fresh.

What about free market demands and appealing to your consumer base or bringing in new consumers? No one is going to stop making model skinny idealistic women. Ever. In the history of the world. Till eternity. No one. However clearly the free market is demanding more representation and body types.

This is not the free market deciding this though. Nope, this is the evil SJW agenda censoring a company and forcing them into making more diverse characters because when diversity happens it is always part of the agenda and could never possibly be part of new market demands because we are such anti free market.

The constant 'I'm down with the free market!' rhetoric really has no impact on me. I'm not a libertarian. Just getting that out of the way, since you went out of your way to make such a big deal about it.

However, on that, let's talk about it. Polygon recently wrote about a study which found the overwhelming majority of men *and* women couldn't care less about the gender of the character they play as, so it seems highly unlikely to me that they care particularly about the body size. Although some players will indeed, and these players are very, very, to the point of inducing tinnitus, loud.

Not that it really matters. Because I think we all benefit from having as wide a variety of characters as possible. It's exciting, it encourages developers to think outside the box.

But of course your problem, as is very obvious in your post, is that I have the audacity to suggest that it wasn't a commercial decision to appeal to a wider market, but one of appeasement. Which I don't think is even that contentious a point to make, as it is stated in the article that this move is a response to criticism, although perhaps worded a little more gently. The developers are responding to 'feedback' from the community. And that feedback, I highly suspect, comes from that murder of screeching harpies.

Yet even still, I applaud the decision. And being that we agree on the substantive matter, I'm not really sure why your tone is so condescending.

Now, you say companies will never stop making skinny characters. And you're right. I don't think they will, or sexualised characters. But I never thought they would. In this area, my concern is actually our cultural attitude toward these characters. Characters like that can no longer exist without being a controversy. In the eyes of far too many, these characters must be lambasted, and their developers rebuked - we're at the point where, to many influential critics, the existence of a sexualised *female* character is in itself 'problematic'. This is unhealthy. There is nothing harmful about sexualised female characters. And whilst this attitude pervades our culture, it absolutely will exert pressure on developers, and my concern is that developers who strive to make artistic games, or games of cultural merit, will avoid any and all sexualisation. This is puritanical, censorious, and undesirable.

Which brings me back to my original point. I wish the company had, through encouragement, decided to introduce diversity to character models, rather than through Social Justice hysteria (which is the momentum behind this, in my opinion). And that's important because, although the idea of diversity has a firm footing and is perfectly reasonable, Social Justice Warriors do not have a firm footing in reason, hell, in reality, and the more influence they have, the more they can apply cultural pressure on developers to avoid 'triggering' areas.

I reiterate: let's introduce representation through encouragement not through censure.

 

[iller3]

I think the article you linked to is interesting, but partially misguided. At least 4 (maybe 5, without the armor) of the girls are cut from the same cloth, with similar, but not quite identical, builds.

Stop Artist-Shaming

They're no where near all close to the same builds and if you think they are then it's b/c you haven't properly studied Anatomy as an Artist. The Egyptian has very broad exaggerated thighs while Tracer has almost none at all. Pharah's "silhouette" emphasizes much more upper body (Even their facial features are diverse). The sniper is just ... alien but arguably among the only 2 that actually fits the beauty pagent mold but atleast her breast size is realistic and actually on the small side compared to a number of real women you'll meet at gamer/fantasy conventions. TBH, I actually think the Sniper fits the Futanari mold a lot more so I don't even see hir as standard pandering unless you consider that alien from MassEffect to be a stereotype reinforcer too. Only hir and Mercy have the same overall profile. And Honestly?...Mercy is the only one I'm actually disappointed in and that's only b/c I'm a career "Healer" in gaming and I much prefer a very compact player model that makes it a lot easier to go unnoticed longer by enemy players.

The only thing they all have in common is fit waists.... which 5 of the Males characters ALSO all have in common. ...Actually make that 6, the huge melee dude with the Hammer also has an hourglass waist for some reason?? I also find it funny that the character with the greatest surface area of bare skin, isn't female either, it's a GeorgeClooney/Elf dude.

 

[Namrok]

Ordinarily I might find this sort of pandering offensive. But from the very start, Overwatch had a very design by committee feel. I never felt the characters were part of any sort of cohesive artistic vision. Sooooo whatever I guess. If I had to be unhappy about something, which I'm not, I'd be unhappy about Blizzard explicitly saying they did this to appease people. Just do it quietly and at least pretend it was something you were going to do anyways.

 

[theNater]

First of all, on the first page of this thread, you can see people complaining about a "token," a new body type to objectify, offensive stereotypes, a simple gender swap, and that she's not ugly enough.

Yes, there are still complaints. That has never been in question. But the suggestion that the complaints are from a single unpleaseable crowd rather than the result of different people having different opinions is wrong, and borderline disingenuous.

And don't use a blanket statement that all people and situations work the same. LoadOut happened with little mention for its diversity in female body types. My assumption is that it's because she fit the style of the game and was just as natural as everything else. The female dwarfs in WoW are stocky, and the barbarian woman in Diablo III is built like a barbarian. These are invisible unless you call attention to it.

Have you considered the possibility that people weren't talking about this with respect to LoadOut because they weren't talking about LoadOut at all? This is literally the first time I've heard of the game. I'm sure the folks at Edge of Reality are good designers and lovely people, but the fact that they aren't getting as much press as freaking Blizzard isn't exactly surprising.

As for WoW and Diablo; people have been calling attention to body diversity in both games. For years. I'm not an Escapist historian, so I can't speak to whether it was talked about here, but on Blizzard's forums, discussions of the appearances of characters have always been a hot topic. I don't recall seeing the phrase "body diversity", but stuff like "it's awesome they have a beefy woman", "I think it's good that they have dwarves and elves, for people who like those things", and "c'mon, let us play as Pandaren; I want a belly" have been there since the get-go.

Also, with such little information given to me, I assumed that they were friends at a restaurant ordering food. The kind of person who orders food for another is controlling. I used the information given to me, and if I misinterpreted, then it's the fault of the writer for being vague, not the reader for applying critical thinking.

How about a deal? I won't blame you for making an erroneous assumption if you don't blame me for failing to take twenty minutes to insure I had properly set the scene for a four-line joke. We'll just call it a no-fault miscommunication.

You can still blame me for targeting it at you, if you like. Incidentally, I'd appreciate an acknowledgement that I have apologized for that(you don't have to have to officially accept or reject the apology, I'd just like to be sure that you saw it).

 

[Garlador]

I think the article you linked to is interesting, but partially misguided. At least 4 (maybe 5, without the armor) of the girls are cut from the same cloth, with similar, but not quite identical, builds.

Stop Artist-Shaming

They're no where near all close to the same builds and if you think they are then it's b/c you haven't properly studied Anatomy as an Artist. The Egyptian has very broad exaggerated thighs while Tracer has almost none at all. Pharah's "silhouette" emphasizes much more upper body (Even their facial features are diverse). The sniper is just ... alien but arguably among the only 2 that actually fits the beauty pagent mold but atleast her breast size is realistic and actually on the small side compared to a number of real women you'll meet at gamer/fantasy conventions. TBH, I actually think the Sniper fits the Futanari mold a lot more so I don't even see hir as standard pandering unless you consider that alien from MassEffect to be a stereotype reinforcer too. Only hir and Mercy have the same overall profile. And Honestly?...Mercy is the only one I'm actually disappointed in and that's only b/c I'm a career "Healer" in gaming and I much prefer a very compact player model that makes it a lot easier to go unnoticed longer by enemy players.

The only thing they all have in common is fit waists.... which 5 of the Males characters ALSO all have in common. ...Actually make that 6, the huge melee dude with the Hammer also has an hourglass waist for some reason?? I also find it funny that the character with the greatest surface area of bare skin, isn't female either, it's a GeorgeClooney/Elf dude.

That's not Artist-Shaming. That's just good old fashioned opinionated criticism. You're way off if you think that statement was "artist-shaming".

And you seemed to have ignored the commentator's preamble:

I still think they do IN COMPARISON TO THE MEN.

And that is most definitely true. I notice the comment also says "similar, not identical", which is also true. I think the criticism is fair and stands. Even Blizzard themselves agreed, which is the reason Zarya was created in the first place, so it's not like the developers didn't think so as well.

Also, I don't know about Trishbot, but I AM an artist with over a decade of anatomy lessons and training. I do comics for a living. I agree they are definitely close to the same builds, especially compared to the exaggerated features of many of the male characters.

 

[EternallyBored]

I think the article you linked to is interesting, but partially misguided. At least 4 (maybe 5, without the armor) of the girls are cut from the same cloth, with similar, but not quite identical, builds.

Stop Artist-Shaming

Seriously? Is this sarcasm? The rest of your post suggests it isn't. Is this really how far the bar has fallen on what qualifies as shaming? I really hope Blizzard's artists aren't that emotionally fragile, that the really tame criticism that Trishbot dished out could be considered anything close to shaming, otherwise they will all have collective aneurysms the second a real negative critic comes along.

Trishbot didn't even call out the artists of Overwatch or try to cast aspirations on them, the post talked entirely about the characters themselves, and not even really in a negative fashion, so I don't know where the hell you got shaming out of, well, any of that post.

They're no where near all close to the same builds and if you think they are then it's b/c you haven't properly studied Anatomy as an Artist.

If you have to be an artist and studied anatomy to tell the "drastic" differences between the female characters, then Blizzard has failed to differentiate them enough for a mainstream commercial product, especially in comparison to the male characters where the differences are obvious to anyone at first glance, which again, Trishbot pointed out that they were samey in comparison to the MALE characters.

The rest of your post is just rambling about minor differences and comparing widowmaker to a futanari for some weird reason, that you fail to elaborate on, but I'm sure is absolutely hilarious, none of that really changes the fact that the female frames are all much much closer to each other than the male frames.

The average person is going to immediately notice that all the female characters are fitting a very similar mold while the male characters are ranging from super skinny buddhist robot, to short Swedish Dwarf, to giant German power armored knight, to a frigging space gorilla, and all those comments about thigh and breast size look like basically minor variations on the same thing.

Off on a tangent, digging further in also reveals the odd age discrepency between characters, even the two most average (Hanzo and McCree) looking male characters are 3 and 4 years older than the OLDEST female characters, with Reinhardt and Torbjorn ranging into their 50's and 60's. Meanwhile, Mercy is the oldest female character at 34, which I guess is nice as a lot of similar games slot the entirety of their female roster in their 20's and seem to exist in a universe where women stop aging at 30. I don't have a serious problem with it, just thought it was interesting to point out.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

 

[EternallyBored]

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

Eh, honestly both of those look pretty dumb, the long hair one especially looks stupid, I know they are just edits, but the only good one I saw was earlier in the thread with dark brown/black hair.

Kind of a weak comparison to Tumblr though considering that she is based off of one of Blizzard's artists, whose picture was also posted earlier in the thread, pink hair and all, which looks more punk than Tumblr. Despite how much of a hate boner some people on the internet get over a website, I don't think they've yet reached a point where they get to start co-opting hair dye.

 

[Erttheking]

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

The average Tumblr user looks like a five hundred pound bodybuilder?

And all those edits do was change the hair color. The long blonde one just looks weird.

 

[Redryhno]

The average person is going to immediately notice that all the female characters are fitting a very similar mold while the male characters are ranging from super skinny buddhist robot, to short Swedish Dwarf, to giant German power armored knight, to a frigging space gorilla, and all those comments about thigh and breast size look like basically minor variations on the same thing.

Off on a tangent, digging further in also reveals the odd age discrepency between characters, even the two most average (Hanzo and McCree) looking male characters are 3 and 4 years older than the OLDEST female characters, with Reinhardt and Torbjorn ranging into their 50's and 60's. Meanwhile, Mercy is the oldest female character at 34, which I guess is nice as a lot of similar games slot the entirety of their female roster in their 20's and seem to exist in a universe where women stop aging at 30. I don't have a serious problem with it, just thought it was interesting to point out.

Don't you know? Women stop aging at 29, that's why(sarcasm incoming) every (sarcasm departing)female character in the history of gaming is in their twenties.

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

That second one just has me thinking of Caesar Zeppeli...and now I wanna go be sad again...

And it also makes me want a Jojo's inspired character now...

 

[EternallyBored]

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

The average Tumblr user looks like a five hundred pound bodybuilder?

And all those edits do was change the hair color. The long blonde one just looks weird.

To be fair, that first one also drastically reduces the size of her facial scar as well, no idea why exactly, personally I like the big scar, but apparently some people don't.

EDIT: actually, maybe it's just the size of the picture, but her face looks narrower as well, so the first picture may have been a deliberate attempt to make her face look more feminine.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

Eh, honestly both of those look pretty dumb, the long hair one especially looks stupid, I know they are just edits, but the only good one I saw was earlier in the thread with dark brown/black hair.

Kind of a weak comparison to Tumblr though considering that she is based off of one of Blizzard's artists, whose picture was also posted earlier in the thread, pink hair and all, which looks more punk than Tumblr. Despite how much of a hate boner some people on the internet get over a website, I don't think they've yet reached a point where they get to start co-opting hair dye.

pink short hair and tatoos LOOK ridiculous, thats trying too hard, imagine the Heavy weapons guy from TF2 with piercings and a mohawk, it would be stupid

thats the main problem with her design, its trying way too hard (tough not as much as that edgelord they also added into the game), i mentioned heavy, since TF2 is a great point of comparison, is the to-go cartoon shooter out there, "but Heavy is a man! is not the same" you might think, then take a look at Zhanna, Heavy's sister

Spoiler

just like her brother she is extremely strong, admiting to have killed and tortured countless men alongside Heavy's other sisters

besides another point i consider very important when designing a female character, atleast in my opinion, aim for a feminine shape, men and women have different body shapes and a muscular momen is not just a strong man with boobs, check some pics of weight lifting women

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

That second one just has me thinking of Caesar Zeppeli...and now I wanna go be sad again...

And it also makes me want a Jojo's inspired character now...

boyo you better not be spoiling me i want to watch that anime

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

The average Tumblr user looks like a five hundred pound bodybuilder?

And all those edits do was change the hair color. The long blonde one just looks weird.

no tatoos, no pink hair, different hair style or being a ginger

i explained in another post that the main problem with her design is they its trying to hard (a problem not limited to her character), being more subtle in the display of strength i believe yields better results

also i like the long hair blonde

 

[Redryhno]

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

That second one just has me thinking of Caesar Zeppeli...and now I wanna go be sad again...

And it also makes me want a Jojo's inspired character now...

boyo you better not be spoiling me i want to watch that anime

Crap...I'll just say that events(births, deaths, triumphs, etc) are somewhat telegraphed and you'll cry manly tears and roar manly man roars through your watching of it. You'll also either love or hate the poses. Johnathan Joestar's eyes are far too attractive on a guy...

 

[Erttheking]

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

The average Tumblr user looks like a five hundred pound bodybuilder?

And all those edits do was change the hair color. The long blonde one just looks weird.

no tatoos, no pink hair, different hair style or being a ginger

i explained in another post that the main problem with her design is they its trying to hard (a problem not limited to her character), being more subtle in the display of strength i believe yields better results

also i like the long hair blonde

So the average tumblr user has tattoos and pink hair? Somehow I doubt it.

Also trying too hard is something I don't put a lot of stock into. Trying hard? Why in the seven hells is trying hard a BAD thing? Trying hard is an indicator that the developer CARES.

How does long blonde hair and the lack of tattoos make strength more subtle? They don't exactly make her muscles look smaller. And you had to point out that her tattoos were missing because I didn't notice it. Frankly they were hardly noticeable on the original design. Also the second one has red eyes, hardly something I'd call subtle.

 

[EternallyBored]

i relly dislike the design, i looks like your typical tumblr user


some people made made some changes and i think their edits are sooo much better

Spoiler

The average Tumblr user looks like a five hundred pound bodybuilder?

And all those edits do was change the hair color. The long blonde one just looks weird.

no tatoos, no pink hair, different hair style or being a ginger

i explained in another post that the main problem with her design is they its trying to hard (a problem not limited to her character), being more subtle in the display of strength i believe yields better results

also i like the long hair blonde

Eh, different strokes I guess, while big and muscular isn't my type, I think she fits in better with the rest of the cast the way she is, editing her that way strikes me as turning her into a generic Gears of War looking grunt the pictures posted just make me like the original more.

I guess I'll just go with Yahtzee on this one, "trying too hard" just seems like a weak criticism, and I wouldn't even apply it in this place, I looked at the pictures posted earlier in this thread of female body builders, and Zarya looks pretty close, so she definitely looks distinctly feminine enough to me.

Eh, I suppose it's just a taste thing, but the edits you posted just make me happier that they decided to go the direction they did.

EDIT: whoops, meant to quote your reply to me, hit the wrong post by mistake, close enough I guess.

 

[MCerberus]

I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone that constraints within reason actually better the artistic process and end with a better result.

Let's compare Star Wars shall we? The prequels were George's "Vision" while the original ones had a whole lot of people saying "NO". Or how about all the movies that had to come up with creative ways to stay in budget. It actually led to a hell of a lot of good practical effects, and the parts of Night of the Living Dead people like.

Of course this needs the sort of loose-touch or everything goes to pot. Let's just call it the "poochy" effect.

Right, so lets see what happened here. The team was given a constraint for one of their new characters. They worked within the framework, filling the space with what they wanted. SUCCESS! the system works.

 

[Redryhno]

So the average tumblr user has tattoos and pink hair? Somehow I doubt it.

Also trying too hard is something I don't put a lot of stock into. Trying hard? Why in the seven hells is trying hard a BAD thing? Trying hard is an indicator that the developer CARES.

How does long blonde hair and the lack of tattoos make strength more subtle? They don't exactly make her muscles look smaller. And you had to point out that her tattoos were missing because I didn't notice it. Frankly they were hardly noticeable on the original design. Also the second one has red eyes, hardly something I'd call subtle.

C'mon, look again at what you wrote and what he wrote. There's nothing wrong with trying hard, which is why he said trying TOO hard.

It's overdesigned in some ways, same as a factory worker wearing a suit to work or some of Final Fantasy's extra clothes for clothes or that she's got gigantic biceps and(in comparison, the majority of her bulk comes from her armor and not her body, but that could just be perspective)tiny wrists, torso, and hands with very little spacing or somewhat natural body flow, she looks bodybuilder strong, not conventionally strong(which would be fine, except for her having to supposed to be an athlete and that normally implies conventional strength as opposed to muscles on top of muscles.)

You wanna know devs in similar genres that try hard without overdoing it? Go look at Riot and Reverge, both have artists that are absolutely in love with the splashes and models they make, or even at other Blizzard [s/]ripoffs[/s] products, where overdesigning things is ok and is consistent in-universe, Zarya just doesn't look like she fits the same as the other characters to me.

 

[MCerberus]

You wanna know devs in similar genres that try hard without overdoing it? Go look at Riot and Reverge, both have artists that are absolutely in love with the splashes and models they make, or even at other Blizzard [s/]ripoffs[/s] products, where overdesigning things is ok and is consistent in-universe, Zarya just doesn't look like she fits the same as the other characters to me.

Riot's weird. They have half the art teams desperately scrambling to ensure the new champs at least have pants, and half the art team making splashes trying to imitate the spine-twisting excesses of comic male gaze poses.