New Vegas: Why Join the Legion?
- Thread starter Thunderous Cacophony
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Caesar was part of the Followers of the Apocalypse, so whilst he doesn't allow them to be a competing power structure, If he's alive in a Legion victory they are allowed safe passage out of the wasteland.Mr F. said:
Its more a question of if the followers would be allowed to be integrated within the Legion. Hell, I had forgotten about his Follower background which, if anything, indicates that the whole Legion in the Mojave is an "Ends justify the Means" situation with something akin to real civilisation following. Wouldn't be the first.GloatingSwine said:
The real question is could the military dictatorship of the Legion be able to evolve into something far more following the end of the needed expansion. Although the "Needed expansion" could be the entire continent. Which is bad. But, assuming they end up with Hegemony, they could end up with peace.
It just occurred to me that New Vegas could also be seen as an experiment with Political Theory. Caesar is quite obviously a Realist, believing the world is an anarchist system in which the only logical conclusion is the dominance of one superpower (Hegemon) that cannot be challenged which will as a result lead to peace. The NCR is quite obviously a Liberal Democracy (By political definition) with all of the problems that follow. The game can be seen to be a struggle between Liberalism and Realism.
Which makes it FAR more interesting in my eyes and justifys me playing New Vegas instead of doing any revision for my politics exam next Thursday.
when i did my Legion playthrough (something i wasn't particularly looking forward to) something... unexpected happened. i found myself understanding Caesar's vision. yes, he does horrible things, but if you talk to him, you can see he's not just an insane dictator, but an honest visionary.
Joining the Legion is basically joining the most badass group in the mojave. With the exception of First Recon, the NCR is pretty lame. Forlorn Hope is being overrun, McCarran is practically swamped with fiends, and the entire government has been tricked by a mummy into protecting one city and a giant concrete wall they can barely use or defend. The Legion, on the other hand, wields nothing but knifes, explosives, or their own fists except in rare occasions. Another reason is that you get to actually meet Cesear and learn about him. He's an interesting guy, who's lived a long life and has a real, tangible goal for the wasteland. By contrast, the only meeting you get with President Kimball is protecting him from Legion assassins.
The NCR may be powerful, but its far removed form the Mojave and already has a comparably vast swath of land to manage back west. The Legion, on the other hand, has its territory literally right across the river in Arizona. Its closer, and has more military strength in the region. The only reason that the NCR holds out is because of superior tech.
The Legion is the Mad-max style of one tribe coming to dominate many others in the wasteland, the only reason its became so powerful, however, is because of Caeser, who had the benefit of education by the Followers and was able to institute Roman-esque values of discipline to it.
I think its a great faction for a Bad-Karma playthough of the game. Im personally fine with some black-and-white morality, but it also has real shades of grey, seeing as the NCR is similarly reprehensible in alot of ways. (only it comes off clean on the outside) Besides, in a tribal area like that, how do you think an empire is going to be forged, with love and huggles for all?
The Legion is the Mad-max style of one tribe coming to dominate many others in the wasteland, the only reason its became so powerful, however, is because of Caeser, who had the benefit of education by the Followers and was able to institute Roman-esque values of discipline to it.
I think its a great faction for a Bad-Karma playthough of the game. Im personally fine with some black-and-white morality, but it also has real shades of grey, seeing as the NCR is similarly reprehensible in alot of ways. (only it comes off clean on the outside) Besides, in a tribal area like that, how do you think an empire is going to be forged, with love and huggles for all?
While you're at it you should pick up The Forever War and Roadside Picnic. Both really fantastic Sci-fi novels. Especially the Forever War which is probably the best Sci-fi I have ever read; and I'd say I'm surprised it's not more popular but given its powerful anti-war message I'm not all that surprised. "To say that The Forever War is the best science fiction war novel every written is to damn it with faint praise." -William Gibson. And frankly I can't wait to be pissed of when it gets bastardized by Ridley Scott and has all the subtle important points and the general theme ignored when they probably turn it into yet another action movie(I'm still bitter about i Robot.)Mr F. said:
They don't like the Followers. The Followers believe in creating a better world not just by pursing technology but by trying to learn from the mistakes of the old world and become better for them. They stand for open mindedness, tolerance, and the betterment of technology. They already have no qualms in subverting the NCR and protesting against their military jingoism(hence their troubles with the NCR.) They would have just as few problems with steadfastly protesting the barbarisms of the Legion. And the Legion is much less likely to let them get away with badmouthing them.Mr F. said:
If the game ends with Caesar alive and the Legion winning, he will let them leave the Mojave. His reasons for this are anyone's best guess. Could be he intends to eventually make use of some of their technology like farming techniques. Could be that he isn't so certain of his plans success and he still sees what the followers are doing as better than what the NCR or any other group is doing. Could be that he just respects his former comrades and gives them a pass. If however Caesar is dead, Legate Lannius will hunt down and execute every single member of the Followers he can get his hands on.
Without getting too much into it, Fallout 3 really didn't make much sense. The timeline was out of place and didn't fit with Fallout lore in so many different ways. It's a fine post apocalyptic RPG; but it's really not a Fallout game.Mr F. said:
As I mention later in this post. New Vegas and Freeside were supposed to be a lot bigger, but Bethesda took too long in okaying the material, and being as the game was developed for a lump sum of money(They got nothing from actual game sales) they couldn't sit around forever waiting for Bethesda to give them the go ahead while they paid programmers to work extra on a game they weren't getting money from.
I wouldn't say things are getting calm either in fact they seem to be even less calm in FNV than previous Fallout games and less than F3 certainly. F3 had an entirely secure carrier where the only thing people complained about was how the edges of their homes were sharp and they might hurt themselves bumping into them. A place where scientists just chilled out freely doing experiments. Even the town literally sitting ontop of a nuke is magically bereft of any real problems beyond a dude in a suit who wants you to blow the place up. The slavers are totally fine unless you come and wipe them all out. There's even a town of freaking children who somehow haven't been murdered yet. It's like the easiest wasteland to survive in ever.
Meanwhile New Vegas is anything but calm. Legion raiding parties actively move across the river and hit targets. Ranger stations where you previously talk to some of the soldiers are annihilated and have mines planted everywhere. Powder gangers constantly harass and steal from travelers. Fiends are murdering and raping random people to the west. Even on the strip that looks outwardly secure we have groups of gangsters engaged in various schemes. They have sex slaves, they try to cannibalize people, they smuggle guns inside in order to start an armed rebellion. There are very few examples of people in the wasteland who aren't in some form of pretty immediate danger from other survivors. In, again, sharp contrast to F3 where you pretty much never hear about anyone hurting anyone else except in select rare circumstances or when you're specifically asked to join in. You don't hear about raiders picking off people from Megaton, you don't even see it. It's like everyone sits around twiddling their thumbs being swell and having a great time until the Vault Dweller shows up and then they run into the tiniest of problems like in the entire wasteland finally a single person has decided to be mean in one isolated case.
Frankly if I had to pick a place to live that was objectively better(read: easier to survive in) I would pick DC any day over the Mojave.
Of course they should have. But war, war never changes.Mr F. said:
Of course it would and that's a bad thing for you, but a good thing for the people of the waste.Thunderous Cacophony said:
The opportunities you see in all the NCR character are resolving violent disputes over water rights, hunting bounties on rapist/murderer/lunatics, threatening mercenaries(or killing them) because they are harassing a peaceful mutant township. It's stuff that is interesting and more fun for you. But for a person realistically living in that wasteland, its a fucking nightmare. If there's anything 9/11 has taught us it's that people are willing to sacrifice any little bit of freedom and are willing to put up with a great deal of barbarism for a little peace of mind. And that is what the legion offers boredom and safety. You may not believe all the dozens of characters that told you so, but when there is absolutely not a single person who disagrees with that assertion it's really silly of you to argue anything different.
The majority of people in Arizona are sitting right across from Hoover Dam or are heading in that way. Pretty much everyone who wasn't killed is either in the military or is supporting the military as a slave. But yeah the ones still in Arizona that aren't sitting in their temporary government seat of Flagstaff have pretty much roving around in smaller camps patrolling the area.Mycroft Holmes said:
And it's entirely possible that they wanted to do that. But it's a moot point because Bethesda slowed their process across the board and made it very difficult to get projects approved. For example Freeside was originally supposed to be like twice the size it ended up being, but Bethesda took forever to approve any content and Obsidian couldn't keep working forever for no pay. I mean look at Ulysses, he was originally supposed to be a companion and probably give you much more of your desired insight into the legion.Thunderous Cacophony said:
Oh they certainly do lead terrible lives. My point is just that compared to the lives everyone else leads in the wasteland, it's really not as big of a difference as you'd like to think.Thunderous Cacophony said:
Also while we are on the subject, a lot of the gladiator slaves volunteered for it. Being a gladiator was a big honor and they didn't die as often as pop culture like to assert. Also slaves in America really didn't have that bad of conditions either. Not that it was right to enslave them in the first place, but compared to the free factory workers of the cities, most American slaves had it easy. They didn't live in slums with terrible overrunning sewage systems, in the smog of factories, eating sub-par food made from ground up rats and pigs, they didn't have their children working in sewing factories forced to run into the giant machines as they jammed with many of them losing limbs or dying as they get mangled in the machinery they are forced to fix.
Well you come up with a better way to make groups of extremely disparate people fall in line in an organized manner. It is in large part because of their hardcore torture that the legion sides of the river are secure. You don't see a single NCR spy in their camps. You don't even see any crime in fortification hill. Everything works like a well oiled machine compared to the NCR. Not saying it's right, but it's certainly effective.Thunderous Cacophony said:
It's not occasional. The entire population of the legion is built on bringing these conquered people into its fold. The vast majority of the conquered tribes survive. Likely not in the way they all wanted to as a lot of them become slaves, but they aren't obliterated.Thunderous Cacophony said:
And you hear mostly the same stories from the NCR. They are a country built on thousands of deaths. They conquered the Enclave remnants. They defeated the Brotherhood of Steel and then chased and fought them again. They defeated the great Khans and chased them to New Vegas where they pursued and attacked them again. The Vipers and the Jackals were tribes like any when the NCR came in and shot them all before chasing the survivors to the Mojave. The only reason house wasn't attacked and conquered immediately by the NCR was because Caesar presented a bigger threat and House recruited three tribes to serve as extra manpower to stop the NCR. And the talking to the NCR military they pretty much agree that they want to conquer the Mojave and believe House to be an enemy of the state to be disposed of after the Legion is conquered. They attack the civilians in Baja. They wreck everyone that won't immediately agree to become part of their imperialistic republic.Thunderous Cacophony said:
And the NCR seems determined to kill every legionary. What's your point? They are at war.Thunderous Cacophony said:
War is harsh and the NCR doesn't seem to even care about or mention any of the slaves as a priority to rescue. I never heard a single person talk about their plight except for the Followers.
The fear of a repeated nuclear apocalypse is still a tangible fear and it's the direction the NCR is headed immediately in. It's less about building a 'better' world and more about building a world that wont destroy itself over and over. And that's one of the biggest themes of the fallout series. Well at least the fallout series minus Fallout 3 where the writers ignore everything and go lol wouldn't it be great to have NPCs sit ontop of a nuke for no reason?Mycroft Holmes said:
I found the legion to be little boys playing with guns trying to masquerade as adults. The most telling sign was when I went to see Caesar and they actually said to my character's face that women are only for making babies (my character is female). Yet they still think I'd be interested in cooperating with them and act surprised when I laid waste to their camp.
Yeah in short, the legion are idiots that I wouldn't join even if I did play an evil character. Even professional villains have standards.
Yeah in short, the legion are idiots that I wouldn't join even if I did play an evil character. Even professional villains have standards.
Caesar's Legion is definitely one of the biggest weak points in New Vegas. If I remember correctly, there wasn't enough time for Obsidian to flesh them out as much as they would have liked, which is a shame. A few NPCs give you snippets of information about life being generally okay back in the Legion's established territory, the atrocities they commit can sort of be put into context when you think that Vegas is a war zone only occupied by the Legion's military branch (as opposed to an actual society), and Caesar genuinely thinks he has the best vision for the Mojave, but these are literally the only things to justify siding with them while still being a halfway-decent Courier. It's for players who either want to bring about civilisation in the quickest albeit most brutal way possible (your paperwork be damned, NCR! *shakes fist*), or for evil characters who give zero fucks.
Without wanting to get into a crazy-heated debate, I think that the Legion is basically all the worst of House without any of the best of House. Caesar's controlling, manipulative and backwards, but doesn't have any of House's ingenuity, resources, or forward-thinking. The only real positive outcome over everybody else is...safer trade routes! Oh boy!
[small](HOUSE 4 LYFE)[/small]
Without wanting to get into a crazy-heated debate, I think that the Legion is basically all the worst of House without any of the best of House. Caesar's controlling, manipulative and backwards, but doesn't have any of House's ingenuity, resources, or forward-thinking. The only real positive outcome over everybody else is...safer trade routes! Oh boy!
[small](HOUSE 4 LYFE)[/small]
The only reason I can think of is maybe it is a call back to the old "Stupid" game play modes of Fallout 1 and 2. If you set your SPECIAL skills extremely low, you would be unable to converse with basically anyone non-essential and would have to either skip or kill everyone else. Since the NCR is in every major hub, joining the Legion would make it where you are forced to kill a large amount of people, skipping possible quests.
If I wasn't such a completionist, I would give a Legion run a try, but I personally was never able to blow up Megaton in Fallout 3 and that seems like a much smaller sacrifice.
The only reason I ever worked for the Legion was for the achievement and to be able to watch their ending.
If I wasn't such a completionist, I would give a Legion run a try, but I personally was never able to blow up Megaton in Fallout 3 and that seems like a much smaller sacrifice.
The only reason I ever worked for the Legion was for the achievement and to be able to watch their ending.
Interesting. To be honest it struck me as a situation where despite their claims of not wanting to make things clear cut and morally ambiguous all around the developers decided to go with a "good" and an "evil" faction, simply giving the good guys some corrupt members, and making Caesar himself a bit less of a jerk than you'd expect. The benefit to joining the Legion is pretty much the benefit someone who likes playing evil derives from being a brutal jerk. I was thinking it was a generally good decision to not make the evil path a real benefit, as it's been my experience in most games that it's the good path that winds up getting screwed with a lack of benefits.... that said though the Rangers/NCR do seem to have nicer stuff, and if your shooting your way through those areas your going to go toting away generally much better stuff. The loot from shooting Caesar's guys isn't exactly great unless you like melee weapons or their style of armor.Thunderous Cacophony said:
That said, I do think they could have done a much better job of handling things. If I was working on it and trying to make things a lot more morally balanced between the sides I probably would have looked toward Robert Adams' "Horseclans" for inspiration. Perhaps even going so far as to give the leaders of the legions some kind of immortality mutation, as a nod, setting themselves up as ghouls who for whatever reason didn't have their skin melt or whatever.
Horseclans did a good job of justifying a really barbaric society in a post-apocalyptic environment, and dealt with the issue of that point of view, as opposed to that of various groups of "Restorationists". It doesn't work as any kind of real world analogy for how people should live their lives, but is entertaining on it's own merits.
I'll also say that a big part of doing "Barbarians" right in fantasy setting, tech-fantasy or not, is to make them appealing for the player by generally putting the PC in the role of one of the elite. There is a certain appeal to being a dominant conqueror, enslaving your enemies, taking their women, and destroying everyone that crosses you (Conan once described it as "what's best in life" in a movie). It's wrong in an overall, real world, sense but that has nothing to do with fantasy. This is why Vikings remain popular in literature, and you have people lining up to say play Klingons and Romulans in games like "Star Trek". To use Star Trek as an example, it would kind of suck to be bleeding Klingon mine slave #571, or even one of the rank and file Klingon cannon fodder, but there is an appeal to being one of the ruling caste in the great houses, commanding your ship, heading out into the great unknown, finding people weaker than you, enslaving them, stealing all their crap, and then singing songs about how awesome you are, praising the honor and justice of doing this, and killing anyone who disagrees. Sure your average Klingon might be a hypocrite, talking about honor and direct confrontation, but fighting battles by sneaking up on people with cloaking devices for a bushwhack, but that doesn't matter when your in charge and anyone who questions you can look forward to a disruptor in the face.
I guess what I'm saying is that you really have to get into selling the lifestyle at the top of the pile to the player and letting them assume that role. The problem with most RPGs is that they involve being a gofer, and really even when groups like this really like you in something like "Fallout" your still pretty much just acting as someone's minor functionary no matter what title they happen to give you. It's not like you get your huge house, slaves, and people worshipping everything you do, with an entire society behind you reinforcing how great and just you are no matter what you do.
When you present a situation with a decadent barbarian-warrior empire in it's prime (long before any cracks are going to get big enough to drag it down), which for all of it's excesses actually DOES present a better lifestyle for even the slaves in the fields than they would expect otherwise, and offer to put someone at the top as one of the elite, this can present more of a counterpoint to something like a progressive society which might be morally right in an overall sense but can neither promise you as much, nor anywhere near as much in the way of safety or stability in the likely future for even the people on the bottom.
To put things into another kind of perspective, while the game doesn't really go there, as even the text above points out the pseudo-slaves of Caesar's empire are taken care of and protected, and exist in peace and stability. To be fair the NCR seems to constantly be getting itself into wars that spill down to the everyman, is constantly strapped for resources, and deals with corruption throughout it's entire organization. Caesar's guys might be brutal, but they are pretty straightforward about who they are. If you were some non-adventurer in Fallout, it's easy to see why you might prefer the Legion to be in charge. In a country like the US we like to go off about freedom and parrot the principles, but how much do even we, in the most liberated country in the world actually have? Something like the NCR being a mere shadow of the government society that inspired it. At the end of the day, one has to ask the very real question of who is most likely to see that you have food and shelter, and less likely to be ganked by some raider or wandering monster. Not to mention ask the question as to whether the average slob has any more freedom in either environment, on some levels you might be able to make a case that Caesar's guys are just more honest about the Status quo. They don't play games by saying "you are free" and then making it otherwise through a system of complicated laws and corrupt bureaucracy, they just achieve the same result through having thugs around to remind you who is in charge.
At the end of the day though if I could be anyone in this environment, I'm honest enough to say that I'd rather be the equivalent of say Milo Morai or Billy The Axe (and I can actually kind of agree with Milo's overall endgame if I remember it correctly) than some cheeseball trying to recreate a society that already failed in a world it defined, and arguably has no chance in an entirely different environment.
The legion are evil by our standards, of course, they're intended to be. But they're still a valid choice, and their inclusion in the world of New Vegas (aside from lore reasons) is just that, a choice. The player, as the courier, has the ability to shape the Mojave thru their actions. And being a role-playing game, there are many different options from which to choose. Being evil is just as valid as being good. There are four "endings" IIRC, the Legion was just one of those.
I will admit I didn't side with them on either of the two playthrus I've had, just as I've not yet sided with the Stormcloaks in either of my Skyrim playthrus. But I've played other games as evil and it can be entertaining. I set off the bomb in Megaton on one FO3 playthru. It's an opportunity to see the a game from a different perspective. I've done Mass Effect as both paragon, renegade, male and female. I've done KotOR 1 & 2 light and dark, Jade Empire both ways, Alpha Protocol as a merciless Thorton and many other games too. I enjoy being able to choose and get different results from my actions...the best games are the ones that make the differences meaningful.
I think FNV does it quite well, as despite that the Legion are evil, they have a valid philosophy worth considering. None of the Mojave factions are righteous and each choice has consequences.
I will admit I didn't side with them on either of the two playthrus I've had, just as I've not yet sided with the Stormcloaks in either of my Skyrim playthrus. But I've played other games as evil and it can be entertaining. I set off the bomb in Megaton on one FO3 playthru. It's an opportunity to see the a game from a different perspective. I've done Mass Effect as both paragon, renegade, male and female. I've done KotOR 1 & 2 light and dark, Jade Empire both ways, Alpha Protocol as a merciless Thorton and many other games too. I enjoy being able to choose and get different results from my actions...the best games are the ones that make the differences meaningful.
I think FNV does it quite well, as despite that the Legion are evil, they have a valid philosophy worth considering. None of the Mojave factions are righteous and each choice has consequences.
The sad thing about New Vegas is that neither the NCR or Legion can hold the Mojave due to the tunnelers from the divide in lonesome road.
Well although most sane people would find the actions of the legion as utterly morally reprehensible (me included) there is some logic in the actions of the legion,
For one they are the only faction actively trying to deal with the rampant mutation, they also have a staunch rejection of all drugs and alcohols that is the ruin of so many citizens in the NCR, as for the technology thing, the legion have a standard of technology that everyone can fully understand and manufacture, this is in countenance to NCR who either use found weapons which are obviously a finite resource, or are manufactured... but wait NCR don't have the Tech to manufacture there weapons, instead it lies to the gun runners and van-graffs who have monopolized the market and unfortunatly there is little the NCR can do to stop these monopoly's.
Additionally the NCR have grown to a point where corruption and bloated bureaucracy makes there actions slow and unweildy, couple that with the fact that the NCR military is riddled with incompetence at high ranks, none of these the legion have to deal with, officially Legionnaires are ranked purely due to combat experience meaning that in actuality as a fighting unit the legion are better organised then there technologically superior NCR.
Having said that i could never bring myself to side with the legion, just it's a little more grey if you think about it!
For one they are the only faction actively trying to deal with the rampant mutation, they also have a staunch rejection of all drugs and alcohols that is the ruin of so many citizens in the NCR, as for the technology thing, the legion have a standard of technology that everyone can fully understand and manufacture, this is in countenance to NCR who either use found weapons which are obviously a finite resource, or are manufactured... but wait NCR don't have the Tech to manufacture there weapons, instead it lies to the gun runners and van-graffs who have monopolized the market and unfortunatly there is little the NCR can do to stop these monopoly's.
Additionally the NCR have grown to a point where corruption and bloated bureaucracy makes there actions slow and unweildy, couple that with the fact that the NCR military is riddled with incompetence at high ranks, none of these the legion have to deal with, officially Legionnaires are ranked purely due to combat experience meaning that in actuality as a fighting unit the legion are better organised then there technologically superior NCR.
Having said that i could never bring myself to side with the legion, just it's a little more grey if you think about it!
personally I entered their camp on a "diplomacy mission" to talk the the leader (can't remember who now) and then got shot at. So my diplomacy mission turned into a 1 man (lvl 13) ethnic cleansing of the whole place. Didn't even break a sweat until I got to the leader and his bodyguards. One lucky grenade later and they were no more. My reward? that jackass in the checkered coat. I was about to let him live but then he insulted me and reminded me of the setup on the strip. So I pulled out my revolver and executed him in satisfyingly bloody revenge.