Mr F. said:
Secondly, Cheers for pointing out another book I should read. I think its about time I got back into Sci-Fi
While you're at it you should pick up The Forever War and Roadside Picnic. Both really fantastic Sci-fi novels. Especially the Forever War which is probably the best Sci-fi I have ever read; and I'd say I'm surprised it's not more popular but given its powerful anti-war message I'm not all that surprised. "To say that The Forever War is the best science fiction war novel every written is to damn it with faint praise." -William Gibson. And frankly I can't wait to be pissed of when it gets bastardized by Ridley Scott and has all the subtle important points and the general theme ignored when they probably turn it into yet another action movie(I'm still bitter about i Robot.)
Mr F. said:
Out of interest what does the legion think about the Followers of the Apocalypse and vice-versa? Its been a while since I replayed the game. Caesar seems to be a rational guy, if the Followers were to rebuild in the stability of the Legion that would be a future that is not too horrific.
They don't like the Followers. The Followers believe in creating a better world not just by pursing technology but by trying to learn from the mistakes of the old world and become better for them. They stand for open mindedness, tolerance, and the betterment of technology. They already have no qualms in subverting the NCR and protesting against their military jingoism(hence their troubles with the NCR.) They would have just as few problems with steadfastly protesting the barbarisms of the Legion. And the Legion is much less likely to let them get away with badmouthing them.
If the game ends with Caesar alive and the Legion winning, he will let them leave the Mojave. His reasons for this are anyone's best guess. Could be he intends to eventually make use of some of their technology like farming techniques. Could be that he isn't so certain of his plans success and he still sees what the followers are doing as better than what the NCR or any other group is doing. Could be that he just respects his former comrades and gives them a pass. If however Caesar is dead, Legate Lannius will hunt down and execute every single member of the Followers he can get his hands on.
Mr F. said:
All of that said, I disliked New Vegas for the same reason I loved it. Civilisation. In FO3 you had a definite feeling that everything was fucked and your primary aim seemed to be survival. There was one major city and that place had a population that would be outclassed through adding a moderately sized trading post to Novac. New Vegas has the march of Civilisation, things are getting too... calm.
Without getting too much into it, Fallout 3 really didn't make much sense. The timeline was out of place and didn't fit with Fallout lore in so many different ways. It's a fine post apocalyptic RPG; but it's really not a Fallout game.
As I mention later in this post. New Vegas and Freeside were supposed to be a lot bigger, but Bethesda took too long in okaying the material, and being as the game was developed for a lump sum of money(They got nothing from actual game sales) they couldn't sit around forever waiting for Bethesda to give them the go ahead while they paid programmers to work extra on a game they weren't getting money from.
I wouldn't say things are getting calm either in fact they seem to be even less calm in FNV than previous Fallout games and less than F3 certainly. F3 had an entirely secure carrier where the only thing people complained about was how the edges of their homes were sharp and they might hurt themselves bumping into them. A place where scientists just chilled out freely doing experiments. Even the town literally sitting ontop of a nuke is magically bereft of any real problems beyond a dude in a suit who wants you to blow the place up. The slavers are totally fine unless you come and wipe them all out. There's even a town of freaking children who somehow haven't been murdered yet. It's like the easiest wasteland to survive in ever.
Meanwhile New Vegas is anything but calm. Legion raiding parties actively move across the river and hit targets. Ranger stations where you previously talk to some of the soldiers are annihilated and have mines planted everywhere. Powder gangers constantly harass and steal from travelers. Fiends are murdering and raping random people to the west. Even on the strip that looks outwardly secure we have groups of gangsters engaged in various schemes. They have sex slaves, they try to cannibalize people, they smuggle guns inside in order to start an armed rebellion. There are very few examples of people in the wasteland who aren't in some form of pretty immediate danger from other survivors. In, again, sharp contrast to F3 where you pretty much never hear about anyone hurting anyone else except in select rare circumstances or when you're specifically asked to join in. You don't hear about raiders picking off people from Megaton, you don't even see it. It's like everyone sits around twiddling their thumbs being swell and having a great time until the Vault Dweller shows up and then they run into the tiniest of problems like in the entire wasteland finally a single person has decided to be mean in one isolated case.
Frankly if I had to pick a place to live that was objectively better(read: easier to survive in) I would pick DC any day over the Mojave.
Mr F. said:
Hell, it is already established that the Brotherhood is a breakaway group from the real brotherhood, I think they should have aligned themselves with the Enclave and thus annihilate the petty conflict that was causing heavy casualties on the ONLY organized groups in the wasteland.
Of course they should have. But war, war never changes.
Thunderous Cacophony said:
Supporting the Legion seems like it would only lead to less opportunities, rather than more.
Of course it would and that's a bad thing for you, but a good thing for the people of the waste.
The opportunities you see in all the NCR character are resolving violent disputes over water rights, hunting bounties on rapist/murderer/lunatics, threatening mercenaries(or killing them) because they are harassing a peaceful mutant township. It's stuff that is interesting and more fun for you. But for a person realistically living in that wasteland, its a fucking nightmare. If there's anything 9/11 has taught us it's that people are willing to sacrifice any little bit of freedom and are willing to put up with a great deal of barbarism for a little peace of mind. And that is what the legion offers boredom and safety. You may not believe all the dozens of characters that told you so, but when there is absolutely not a single person who disagrees with that assertion it's really silly of you to argue anything different.
Mycroft Holmes said:
Still, do the majority of the people in Arizona live in these nomadic camps?
The majority of people in Arizona are sitting right across from Hoover Dam or are heading in that way. Pretty much everyone who wasn't killed is either in the military or is supporting the military as a slave. But yeah the ones still in Arizona that aren't sitting in their temporary government seat of Flagstaff have pretty much roving around in smaller camps patrolling the area.
Thunderous Cacophony said:
It seems like the easiest way to show what Caesar's vision could be would have been to create a town-area next to Fortification Hill, a place that they had conquered on their way west which was now thriving under Caesar's rule.
And it's entirely possible that they wanted to do that. But it's a moot point because Bethesda slowed their process across the board and made it very difficult to get projects approved. For example Freeside was originally supposed to be like twice the size it ended up being, but Bethesda took forever to approve any content and Obsidian couldn't keep working forever for no pay. I mean look at Ulysses, he was originally supposed to be a companion and probably give you much more of your desired insight into the legion.
Thunderous Cacophony said:
Slaves might not lead a terrible life. We don't know, because the game doesn't show or tell us much about it. When someone says 'slavery', your mind jumps to a few possible locations: You think about the definitely horrible conditions of American slaves, or you may think about the Roman slaves (many of whom did function as highly educated teachers and servants, while many, many more
were put to work in mines, as prostitutes, and as gladiators, living short and brutal lives in a system that was only sustainable due to the vast number of slaves brought in regularly from military conquests. Given the nature of the Legion (well-known for horrific punishments, rape and the like), it seems likely that slaves are viewed as expendable labour.
Oh they certainly do lead terrible lives. My point is just that compared to the lives everyone else leads in the wasteland, it's really not as big of a difference as you'd like to think.
Also while we are on the subject, a lot of the gladiator slaves volunteered for it. Being a gladiator was a big honor and they didn't die as often as pop culture like to assert. Also slaves in America really didn't have that bad of conditions either. Not that it was right to enslave them in the first place, but compared to the free factory workers of the cities, most American slaves had it easy. They didn't live in slums with terrible overrunning sewage systems, in the smog of factories, eating sub-par food made from ground up rats and pigs, they didn't have their children working in sewing factories forced to run into the giant machines as they jammed with many of them losing limbs or dying as they get mangled in the machinery they are forced to fix.
Thunderous Cacophony said:
Long, legendarily painful executions is something that requires extraordinary support, and the Legion does it to anyone and everyone they dislike (while every other faction is fine with just shooting a person in the head and calling it a day).
Well you come up with a better way to make groups of extremely disparate people fall in line in an organized manner. It is in large part because of their hardcore torture that the legion sides of the river are secure. You don't see a single NCR spy in their camps. You don't even see any crime in fortification hill. Everything works like a well oiled machine compared to the NCR. Not saying it's right, but it's certainly effective.
Thunderous Cacophony said:
I meant 'genocide' in the sense that they obliterate towns and tribes, occasionally leaving some people to join them.
It's not occasional. The entire population of the legion is built on bringing these conquered people into its fold. The vast majority of the conquered tribes survive. Likely not in the way they all wanted to as a lot of them become slaves, but they aren't obliterated.
Thunderous Cacophony said:
you also hear that in conquering those tribes he kills thousands.
And you hear mostly the same stories from the NCR. They are a country built on thousands of deaths. They conquered the Enclave remnants. They defeated the Brotherhood of Steel and then chased and fought them again. They defeated the great Khans and chased them to New Vegas where they pursued and attacked them again. The Vipers and the Jackals were tribes like any when the NCR came in and shot them all before chasing the survivors to the Mojave. The only reason house wasn't attacked and conquered immediately by the NCR was because Caesar presented a bigger threat and House recruited three tribes to serve as extra manpower to stop the NCR. And the talking to the NCR military they pretty much agree that they want to conquer the Mojave and believe House to be an enemy of the state to be disposed of after the Legion is conquered. They attack the civilians in Baja. They wreck everyone that won't immediately agree to become part of their imperialistic republic.
Thunderous Cacophony said:
As well, they seem quite determined to kill every member of the NCR they come in contact with.
And the NCR seems determined to kill every legionary. What's your point? They are at war.
War is harsh and the NCR doesn't seem to even care about or mention any of the slaves as a priority to rescue. I never heard a single person talk about their plight except for the Followers.
Mycroft Holmes said:
It's a good argument, but the game shows too much of the 'evil fucks' side and not enough of the 'building a better world'.
The fear of a repeated nuclear apocalypse is still a tangible fear and it's the direction the NCR is headed immediately in. It's less about building a 'better' world and more about building a world that wont destroy itself over and over. And that's one of the biggest themes of the fallout series. Well at least the fallout series minus Fallout 3 where the writers ignore everything and go lol wouldn't it be great to have NPCs sit ontop of a nuke for no reason?