haha, so you're faulting Valve for subcontracting cleaners, then not giving the subcontrators the same privaledge as full time staff?albino boo said:
Newell: Specialization in Gaming is "The Enemy of the Future"
- Thread starter BlameTheWizards
- Start date
We all love Valve, they made Half-life it was fucking GREAT, and if you were around when that was blowing up along with the many many mods to play on GameSpy3d/Arcade lol. Valve also was way ahead of its time with Steam sure it was not great to start with but a hell of alot better then origin and considering the lessons learned in the time between and the funds its surprising EA fucked that one up so hard. We love valves games, they are great and have long life spans they are in it for the long run, they treat it like a service like mr GabeN has said in the past. But there is one thing that brings them down. And that is Half-life, the game that some could say made them what they are today. over a decade now and still no final to it. And the lack of communication with shit like this. Otherwise. They are still one of the best. Oh and lack of content, i mean as much as i love the re-playability of valve games it would be nice to get more fucking maps for L4D2 for example ?
No what I am saying is that you can't have to true flat organization because no would do the crap jobs.Mr Ink 5000 said:
Choice A play test the latest game
Choice B replace urinal cakes
The whole flat management is nonsense because the only way it functions because other people don't get the choice. The ability to do what you chose is limited to a tiny minority because if wasn't the business would not function. If extended to society as whole who many people chose to clean the sewers or clean in a hospital ward, yet without those unpleasant and badly paid jobs society would not function. The reality is that it is way of convincing middle aged billionaires that they are still anti establishment. I wonder how long someone would last if they didn't do something when Gabe asked? Its not an equal relationship between a billionaire and employee.
You're post pretty definitively said you considered those games "minor league", although I suppose you may have misworded it.amaranth_dru said:
You would get so much shit for saying the CS hasn't changed, there's a good reason each installment still retains sizable player-bases so far after sequels have been launched.
I mean relatively, TFClassic wasn't realistic, but not nearly as off-the-wall crazy as TF2.
I'm not going to deny that a lot of Valve's IPs have to do with mod purchases, but I don't really see how there is a contradiction. He pretty blatantly states they're moving to a more multiplayer focused platform with Steam and extrapolates that in a constantly moving industry being able to move like that is necessary.
Left 4 Dead 2 was developed post-buy and I'd imagine that L4D was worked on by Valve after buy although I may be wrong about that. Hidden Path only co-deved CS:GO, Valve stepped in after the project started becoming less of a XBLA port and more of a full game.GloatingSwine said:
HL2E1 had 5 chapters and HL2E2 had 7 chapters compared to HL2's 13, much more then 10% although I can see the argument of maybe not qualifying as a full game.
Yeah we get it Valve has games released every year but c'mon they still have terrible communication with fans. It's not so bad that they haven't released Half-Life 3 yet, it's bad that they haven't said dick about it. Also don't forget that if you're a company that's known for selling a certain kind of product that your current customers like then you go an sell a completely different kind then for the original customers it's like you've done nothing. Valve were providing cutting-edge story driven single-player fps games and then switched gears to short multiplayer experiences that likely don't even register for HL fans. It's no wonder that for many the last game remembered is Portal 2.
It's just like how fans of Warcraft and Starcraft and Diablo were wondering where their games were when the deluge of WoW content continued to flow; it was like Blizzard were doing nothing. So yeah we don't NEED Half-Life 3, but goddamn we need to know where it's at! Communicate Valve! You may release a game every year but you certainly don't act like you are. Hats and cards and now home consoles? WHAT IS PROJECT F-STOP? When was the last time you went to E3? and before anyone mentions that they don't need to announce at E3, they haven't communicated anything on their own either.
Also I don't know why they keep spruiking their employee structure. Valve are already one of the most repected devs out there and must get thousands of people each month applying to work for them, so they don't need to advertise. If they think they're helping to spread their successful tactics to other devs, really, how many other devs have a multi-million dollar distribution platform keeping them afloat? Sorry but other devs can't afford to have Valve's system.
It's just like how fans of Warcraft and Starcraft and Diablo were wondering where their games were when the deluge of WoW content continued to flow; it was like Blizzard were doing nothing. So yeah we don't NEED Half-Life 3, but goddamn we need to know where it's at! Communicate Valve! You may release a game every year but you certainly don't act like you are. Hats and cards and now home consoles? WHAT IS PROJECT F-STOP? When was the last time you went to E3? and before anyone mentions that they don't need to announce at E3, they haven't communicated anything on their own either.
Also I don't know why they keep spruiking their employee structure. Valve are already one of the most repected devs out there and must get thousands of people each month applying to work for them, so they don't need to advertise. If they think they're helping to spread their successful tactics to other devs, really, how many other devs have a multi-million dollar distribution platform keeping them afloat? Sorry but other devs can't afford to have Valve's system.
What's literal about thinking about the practical implications of flat management. I run a business in the real world and I tell you what there is no way in hell I am allowing anyone else to take decisions that affect the financial future of my business and family and doubt anyone else will either. So all key decisions will be taken Gabe in the end. He may allow consensus to develop but if he thinks thats wrong, who do you think is going to have the final say? Real world away, from all the PR its Gabes show and his word is law whatever way he dresses it up. Flat management is just gimmick and only works because Valve is small and everyone he gets a "choice" works under the direct sight of Gabe. You can't have flat management extended across large business becauses authority and responsibility are too far away to monitor all situations and can only be applied areas that people actually would want to do.Mr Ink 5000 said:
From the story; "We had to think about if we're going to be in a business that's changing that quickly, how do we avoid institutionalizing one set of production methods in such a way that we can't adapt to what's going to be coming next."albino boo said:
I dont think he's talking about your business, that you run. I also dont see it implied that every business should do the same thing.
Better to get it right the first time than to get it wrong and have to rush it out anyway like every EA game since 2009reiniat said:
In a flat structure, the people doing the unpleasant but necessary jobs are recognized for doing so, and accordingly are often paid better.albino boo said:
Yes, small structures are necessary in order to make it flat; if everyone knows your name, and you're accountable for your actions, then people can more easily commend your good work, and critique your bad work. Many software teams have been moving towards the Scrum model, which often still has a manager for the team, but can work in a leaderless fashion, because the team members hold each other accountable.albino boo said:
The success they had making games is almost irrelevant when compared to the success of Steam. Developing half life, counter strike and team fortress was at best a multi-million dollar business, Steam is a multi-billion dollar business, it's more successful than developing video games could ever be besides perhaps something like World of Warcraft. The point is that Valve has been wildly successful by resisting specialization, they develop a wide range of products that they would never have had if they specialized the company and the employees.amaranth_dru said:
Now, I'm no business expert but what you are talking about has nothing to do with the article. He's not saying his company runs on consensus or that there is no structure or hierarchy. He's saying he doesn't want people to focus too much on one skill set because the next project they work on may need a completely different one. He wants people to adapt with changes or get left behind. At least that's what I took from the artcle.albino boo said:
Considering the love people have for Valve and hate for companies like EA and MS (for not adapting, amongst other foul practices) Gabe may be on to something.
For a smaller scale example, I spent some time running a grocery stocking crew, and my best employees weren't the ones who excelled at one task, but the ones who were competent at any task. The specialists tended to be arrogant because they were good at what they did, but failed when taken out of their comfort zone, and failed even worse if they got promoted.
So maybe i'm misinterpreting, but his words (in this article at least) seem pretty sound to me, if a little idealistic.
Man, Valve has really pulled off the double whammy in attracting internet rabble-rousers. They've become both popular and successful, so some that don't happen to like it are going to make damn sure they let everyone know awful it actually is. And adding to that they're shamelessly late with an iteration in a series that has a rabid fanbase. It's like The Avengers and George R.R. Martin rolled up into one badly beaten dead horse!
Anyways, if you can say one thing about Gabe Newell and Valve it's that he's always stuck to his guns and been good for gaming. Most similar entities when they hit it big they go public and start turning 'evil', as once upon a time the Google guys liked to call it. At one time EA was a great game developer who corned the market on sports titles (I'm guestimating this was their big leadup to success), and in turn evolved into a massive publisher that just buys up other developers and sucks the life and creativity out of them.
Valve though? Gabe has kept them private so he can call all the shots, and has a long history of finding and enabling creative talent. With all the money they're making off Steam, rather than buying up other smaller developers and folding them under Gabe's iron fist, they're sinking the money into the new Steam OS and Steam Boxes. Pretty much every other successful game developer has either grown into the big bad publisher: EA, Activision, Ubisoft, Square, etc, or at the very least jumped in bed with one: Blizzard, Bioware.
When you get down to it setting aside the complaints some people have I think it would be hard to argue against that in a very good way Valve is a unique entity in the games industry, and we'd be much better off if we had more like them.
Anyways, if you can say one thing about Gabe Newell and Valve it's that he's always stuck to his guns and been good for gaming. Most similar entities when they hit it big they go public and start turning 'evil', as once upon a time the Google guys liked to call it. At one time EA was a great game developer who corned the market on sports titles (I'm guestimating this was their big leadup to success), and in turn evolved into a massive publisher that just buys up other developers and sucks the life and creativity out of them.
Valve though? Gabe has kept them private so he can call all the shots, and has a long history of finding and enabling creative talent. With all the money they're making off Steam, rather than buying up other smaller developers and folding them under Gabe's iron fist, they're sinking the money into the new Steam OS and Steam Boxes. Pretty much every other successful game developer has either grown into the big bad publisher: EA, Activision, Ubisoft, Square, etc, or at the very least jumped in bed with one: Blizzard, Bioware.
When you get down to it setting aside the complaints some people have I think it would be hard to argue against that in a very good way Valve is a unique entity in the games industry, and we'd be much better off if we had more like them.
This made me sad to read. Social multiplayer experiences...
Half-Life 3 confirmed... as never happening.
Half-Life 3 confirmed... as never happening.
I choose to clean the toilet in my own house. What makes you think that is not possible in a workplace with flat structure? Ive seen studios where they take care of their own cleaning and dont hire anyone. basically all you need is for your eomployees to care about their workplace, which is entirely possible in valves case.albino boo said:
Oh boy am I the only one who doesn't like Valve and the way they conduct busyness.
I honestly think that Valve owes most of their success to smart luck.
I say smart because while I think the introduction of Steam was a smart decision and very good timing. However, Vavle hasn't really done much of anything since then, and if any other company like MS or even EA beat them to it then I'm pretty sure Vavle wouldn't be around since they were facing trouble from that hack attack.
I honestly think that Valve owes most of their success to smart luck.
I say smart because while I think the introduction of Steam was a smart decision and very good timing. However, Vavle hasn't really done much of anything since then, and if any other company like MS or even EA beat them to it then I'm pretty sure Vavle wouldn't be around since they were facing trouble from that hack attack.
Sorry but if we're excluding mods and buyouts, we're going to have to exclude a large portion of gamingblack_knight1337 said:
Major publishers? They're responsible for basically nothing if you take out companies they've purchased/merged with, yet in a lot of cases those devs wouldn't have been able to create what they have without a large company backing them.
Also, I guess Little Big Planet deserves less credit in terms of level design, because they hired a guy for the community explicitly for his level design
And why not take credit away from Valve entirely? I mean, Half-Life is based on a modified version of the engine id used to make Quake.... and so is Call of Duty for that matter
This is just how the industry works. Companies that want to survive hire people who can prove they have done, or will do, something worthwhile, and then they get paid or bought out. Heck, the current publisher model basically forces devs to make at least part of the game, then hope someone funds it. The publisher then oversees the project, and sometimes lends its own staff to the company in question. Homefront, for example, had a team come in to help them finish the game for its stated release date.
It's also one of the generally accepted ways to get into the industry without necessarily going through the usual career path. Make a mod or game that is big enough, and someone will come knocking at your door to have you replicate it or create something new at their company. If you don't keep trying to bring in new ideas and talented people, you fall behind and fail. The fact that they're still going out of their way to hire these people and throw their weight as a company behind them shows that games are still a priority for them, even if new/unfinished projects aren't getting as much attention as their ridiculously large storefront or attempts at getting into hardware. It's also worth noting that the support their games get years after launch is far better than that of most other companies. As much as I don't really care for the game, compare TF2's free content creation to that of pretty much any other title over the same period of time. Unless you're looking at mods there really isn't much else.
The alternative, really, is to only go with safe franchises. Valve could have been releasing Half Life 14 or HL2 Episode 8 but I suspect that most people in this thread would not really be all that happy with that proposal.