No "Meaningless Stat Games" in Mass Effect 3

uc.asc

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JeanLuc761 said:
I'm with you. We know barely anything about Mass Effect 3 and the only information I've heard has been good:
- Returning RPG elements.
- More fluid combat with swat turns and rolls (a la Gears of War)
- Weapon mods are returning from Mass Effect 1
- Melee will be improved with each character having a "kill" animation.
- Larger environments with less "chest-high-walls" level design.
- "Meaningless" stats will be replaced with real impacts (which is EXACTLY what this article says).

I'm sure there's more, but that's just the basics.

Would someone like to explain to me how ANY of that is a bad thing?
That all sounds pretty good to me. I'm actually becoming cautiously optimistic.

Keep in mind the only people who have strong opinions about games that haven't been released yet are the lunatic fringe, so this thread doesn't exactly represent a meaningful sample of gamers.
 

Phase_9

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stoprequesting said:
On one hand, an RPG for me means a developed, dynamic story with in-depth character interaction. For a lot of people (and by "a lot of people" I mean "a solid chunk of Bioware's customer base"), however, it means a deep stats system.

"Stat-free" RPGs can be done - Borderlands jumps to mind, for instance - the stat customization is roughly on par with COD or BFBC2, and it's widely seen as Diablo in space. But Bioware has not exactly inspired the confidence as of late.
Are you kidding? Borderlands has stats all over the place. Their damage stats had decimal places, for God's sake.

That being said, I'm going to assume that they mean they are either bringing the stats out again (because they pretty much hid them in Mass Effect 2) or that they are trimming the fat of some stats that didn't matter. And if it's neither of these, I still trust Bioware to do the game justice.
 

ryai458

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As long it is fun and tells an amazing story who cares if you have a geth assault rifle 1+ charisma?
 

Andy Chalk

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StriderShinryu said:
That's rather funny seeing as how I consider the characters and storylines, plus the players explicit choice based involvement in them, to be pretty much the defining aspect of an RPG, and there's no question that's a pretty huge aspect of both ME1 and ME2. Calling labelling ME an RPG a stretch is only a stretch if you define RPGs not by RP but by dice rolling and stat management.
You have to draw the line somewhere if you're going to have meaningful genre definitions. Mass Effect 2 is a third-person shooter with occasional bits of branching dialog and a small handful of character upgrades, but the presence of a handful RPG elements does not make it an RPG. It's more like Diablo or Dark Messiah; it may look RPG-ish at first glance but when you get down to it, it's a conversational action game.

Which for the record isn't a complaint. I've loved ME so far and I'll be all over ME3 on launch day. I just find it interesting that BioWare, one of the industry's premiere RPG studios for more than a decade, is now paring back many of the traditional elements of the genre in its biggest and most successful (I'm guessing) franchise.
 

cynicalsaint1

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You gotta love all the knee jerk reactions in this thread.

Really all I heard was that all they were making an effort to have all upgrades be meaningful, and make sure its relatively clear what they do. As opposed to having a ton of stats that the game either never tells you about, or does a poor job of describing how they affect the game, and you have to grind for hours just to get a barely worthwhile +1 to it.

Really, that doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.
 

Aggieknight

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cynicalsaint1 said:
You gotta love all the knee jerk reactions in this thread.

Really all I heard was that all they were making an effort to have all upgrades be meaningful, and make sure its relatively clear what they do. As opposed to having a ton of stats that the game either never tells you about, or does a poor job of describing how they affect the game, and you have to grind for hours just to get a barely worthwhile +1 to it.

Really, that doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.
If it wasn't for the disaster that was DA2, I would agree with you.

Unfortunately, now I'm going to spend the next year skeered.

I'd also feel better if Bioware would stop dropping hints like "no meaningless extra RPG stuff" without giving details. What is an example of a meaningless stat? I didn't think there were any left. Last I heard from BioWare, ME3 was going to lean back more RPG, not less.

I loved ME2, but the "steamlinedness" of it was almost too much for me. I'm very concerned about Gears of Mass Effect - now with better cover combat...which is exactly why everyone played the other two, right?
 

DSK-

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As long as it doesn't turn out like DA2 I'll be as sound as a pound.
 

The.Bard

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JeanLuc761 said:
I'm with you. We know barely anything about Mass Effect 3 and the only information I've heard has been good:
- Returning RPG elements.
- More fluid combat with swat turns and rolls (a la Gears of War)
- Weapon mods are returning from Mass Effect 1
- Melee will be improved with each character having a "kill" animation.
- Larger environments with less "chest-high-walls" level design.
- "Meaningless" stats will be replaced with real impacts (which is EXACTLY what this article says).

I'm sure there's more, but that's just the basics.

Would someone like to explain to me how ANY of that is a bad thing?
Aw man... momma lied to me all these years! She told me the internet was full of only bad people who fed their brains to a giant squid.

But as I live and breathe... MORE people willing to try something before damning it to the ether! Golly gee, I'm as giddy as a schoolgirl!

I totally agree with you... everything I'm hearing has been good stuff. And I mean, really, do people think they're just going to tell us all the most amazing stuff now? Of course not. They'll tell us in November when they want to get our hearts palpitating.

Total sidenote, I just did a 'bad' thing and bought ME1 and ME2 on Steam for $15. I totally shouldn't have, but I want to get ME3 on PC, seeing how the 360 version isn't as tight in the graphics department. I mean, yea, I could just download some saves, but that isn't as cool.

That works out to ~8 months to do full Paragon & Renegade playthroughs of both games... currrrrrrse you Steam, and your insanely good deals!!!
 

NickCooley

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Wow, knee jerk reactions much? I wasn't aware "No meaningless stat games" equals "we're Gears of War 4". I think what they're doing is good, I want the combat to flow according to MY actions not an invisible die being rolled in the games mechanics.

I also like that my upgrades will actually have an effect instead of only improving my accuracy or whatnot by about 0.05 each time I put a point into it. I hated that in Mass Effect 1 my Sole Survivor badass Infiltrator that was brought up on the mean streets of Earth could barely hit a barn door with a sniper rifle at the beginning. I'm sorry, why is he being pegged as a Spectre again? He should be shipped off back to boot camp.
 

cynicalsaint1

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Aggieknight said:
If it wasn't for the disaster that was DA2, I would agree with you.

Unfortunately, now I'm going to spend the next year skeered.

I'd also feel better if Bioware would stop dropping hints like "no meaningless extra RPG stuff" without giving details. What is an example of a meaningless stat? I didn't think there were any left. Last I heard from BioWare, ME3 was going to lean back more RPG, not less.

I loved ME2, but the "steamlinedness" of it was almost too much for me. I'm very concerned about Gears of Mass Effect - now with better cover combat...which is exactly why everyone played the other two, right?
I'd absolutely love if you could show anywhere in the article where she said anything about removing anything. From everything I've heard so far they're bringing back deeper weapon customization - as far as I can tell the only thing she's saying here is that they're making an effort to make sure that the any customization options you have are meaningful.

Anything else is you adding your own words into whats being said.
 

Therumancer

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I think they just did some major damage to their own game and it's probably reception among the core audience of RPG gamers.

To explain this to some people:

What makes a game an RPG is the stats. The storyline and so on are irrelevent to whether something is an RPG or not. A shooter, fighting game, or whatever else can have a storyline without being an RPG.

The point of an RPG is that it's the abillities of the character your controlling that determine success or failure, NOT your abillities as a player. The idea being that in swinging a sword for example, the idea is resolved by the sword skill and attributes of Dwarg The Warrior, and a dice roll to determine chance (various random factors), as opposed to your abillity to get up and actually manuver a sword or something representing one.

The reason why a shooter can never be an RPG is because at it's core a shooter is dependant on the abillity of the player to move the character and aim the weapon. It's not a matter of how good Commander Shepard, or whomever your controlling is, it comes down to YOUR abillity to twitch.

The original "Mass Effect" was more of a hybrid because while in real time, aiming and moving the character was tertiary compared to having the right skills and weapons for the job. A veteran shooter player could aim a gun perfectly and miss (even at point blank) if their character didn't have good enough stats to make a shot. Likewise, a lobster accountaint who has problems even holding their silverware the right way at the dinner table, could make a REALLY impressive shot with minimal effort if their stats and gear were built up to the right levels.

The idea being that a guy who has NO skill at shooters whatsoever can effectively play the game like a master, while a guy who is very skilled at shooters, can wind up being unable to shoot effectively at all with an inappropriate character build for it.

Customization, story, moral desicians, all of those are good things, but they can apply to ANY game, and do not make it an RPG, no matter how much people want to insist otherwise. Heck, for those who actually PLAYED PnP RPGs, especially decades ago, your probably faimilar with the schism in the subculture about Storytelling games Vs. real RPG games. The basic arguement that while a good story improves an RPG, it's hardly nessicary to the experience, as one can have a perfectly entertaining dungeon crawl without needing a massive plot or constant NPC interaction. Not to mention the simple fact that RPGs existed before anyone decided "hey, let's tell a story and use these mechanics as part of it".

Right now "RPG" has become a buzzword that is decaying it's meaning. It's used for games that are NOT RPGs to try and present them as being deeper, and smarter, than they actually are.

See, "Mass Effect 2" is a game that any goober can sit down and play. You don't need to understand how things work, all you need to do is watch some computer generated cartoons hooked up to a "choose your own adventurer" selection mechanic (which might not even have any major influance on what happens, since the same basic events tend to happen no matter what you do), and then twitchy finger your way through the rest of the game where the closest thing to "depth" is watching how many bullets are in your gun.

Hooking Saturday Morning Cartoons up to "Gears Of War" does *NOT* make something an RPG, or in any way make it more inteligent or deeper.

Of course the issue is that with gaming catering to the lowest human denominator, games that are more of a cereberal exercise simply are not that popular or profitable. Making a game too smart, cuts down on it's potential audience, and the amount of money that can be made off of it. HOWEVER a game that can take the lowest denominator and make them feel smart, by say sticking an RPG label on it, can of course generate a lot more appeal, similar to how a teacher might go around sticking a little star on the artwork assignments of students to make the kids churning out the scribbles seem special.

Apologies if that isn't flattering to a lot of people, but that's how I see it, and with an issue like this it's hard to mince words while being accurate with the criticisms.

My basic attitude is that we already have Halo and Gears Of War, so there is no real reason why "Mass Efect" can't remain an RPG. RPGs are still going to make a pretty solid profit, and I see no real reason why developers have to keep chasing the biggest possible piles of money once you get to the point of producing a decent profit. If everyone stays at the "Gears Of Money" level, then gaming is hardly goibng to continue to progress as a medium, or reach the heights we all know it can attain. Down the road if gaming keeps progressing and causes it's fan base to grow in it's sophistication, it will garner profits well beyond what we see now, producers and developers need to put more thought into th elong term.
 

uc.asc

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NickCooley said:
Wow, knee jerk reactions much? I wasn't aware "No meaningless stat games" equals "we're Gears of War 4". I think what they're doing is good, I want the combat to flow according to MY actions not an invisible die being rolled in the games mechanics.

I also like that my upgrades will actually have an effect instead of only improving my accuracy or whatnot by about 0.05 each time I put a point into it. I hated that in Mass Effect 1 my Sole Survivor badass Infiltrator that was brought up on the mean streets of Earth could barely hit a barn door with a sniper rifle at the beginning. I'm sorry, why is he being pegged as a Spectre again? He should be shipped off back to boot camp.
It's because in games with levels you start weak and become strong. Hope this helps.
 

deathbydeath

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Psychotic-ishSOB said:
Compatriot Block said:
Oh god, incoming rage. Prepare thyselves, Bioware. Hell hath no fury like an entitled gamer scorned.
hahaha. True. This still seems like Gears of War with a better story...in SPACE!
the writers of me2 are not bioware and need to be purged. except for the writers of mordin, jack, tali, and legion. those are the same people who wrote kotor and jade empire, and me1.
 

The.Bard

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Andy Chalk said:
You have to draw the line somewhere if you're going to have meaningful genre definitions. Mass Effect 2 is a third-person shooter with occasional bits of branching dialog and a small handful of character upgrades, but the presence of a handful RPG elements does not make it an RPG. It's more like Diablo or Dark Messiah; it may look RPG-ish at first glance but when you get down to it, it's a conversational action game.

Which for the record isn't a complaint. I've loved ME so far and I'll be all over ME3 on launch day. I just find it interesting that BioWare, one of the industry's premiere RPG studios for more than a decade, is now paring back many of the traditional elements of the genre in its biggest and most successful (I'm guessing) franchise.
Why, Andy?!? Why?? I totally understand you're not complaining, but I'm still baffled as to why a game needs insane levels of micromanagement to be defined as an RPG. Why can't people accept different subvariations within the "RPG" genre? To keep such staunch and unmoving definitions hurts the consumer. "RPG" is a terrible definition when you consider how many types of games are shoved inside of it.

Movies do this all the time. There are a bajillion subcategories within "Comedy". Are games sooo rigid that we can't evolve past the ever-so-vague "RPG" term? Forever into the future, they need to be turnbased, with X number of stats to micromanage and a requisite number of hours played in tedium???

I refuse to accept that. Look at the old (non-World of) Warcraft games. Despite dropping all the turn-based elements, they are STILL strategy games. Only in realtime. Thus, RTS.

Call ME2 an Action RPG, call it a Realtime RPG, call it whatever kind of RPG you want... but do not tell me it's not an RPG just because I don't have to spend 3 hrs out of every 10 managing my stats like an excel sheet. That's just silly.

Besides, this decision has already been made. It won RPG awards. The ESRB calls it an Action RPG. Steam calls it an RPG. Bioware calls it an RPG. Stores stock it under RPG. Reviewers call it an RPG. My friends and I refer to it as an RPG. To say it isn't an RPG is confusing an issue that has already been decided upon.

*sigh* Ok, I'm done now. Thanks for listening to me rant. =)
 

Hijax

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Aggieknight said:
If it wasn't for the disaster that was DA2, I would agree with you.
For christ's sake, DA2 was created by a completely different team.
 

s0p0g

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"to appeal to as wide a market as possible" - i have a bad feeling about this...

unless, of course, i can train my own brain to not expect something like an actual rpg, but something even more shooteresque than ME2 (it wasn't bad after all, it just wasn't much of a rpg)