No Right Answer: Is Game of Thrones Overrated?

[daibakuha]

II await the remainder of this thread with baited breath. I've really gotten into coming on the internet to read the thoughts of people getting genuinely emotional in their defence of things they like, or what they feel is a misinterpretation of something they like.

Honestly It's not that people don't have the right to not like a show. When they take the time to make a video about it, filled with lazy armchair criticism and fairly baseless accusations about the show, I get a little miffed.

This guy doesn't even understand the basic plot of the show.

 

[jdarksun]

Debate accepted!

1) This show is not well written, it is not well structured, the characters are not well defined, the premise is not very clear, there is no tone.

The tone, as defined from the very first scene, is dark fantasy. "Winter is coming" is both in-universe statement about the ending of Summer (plenty and warmth) and plot metaphor. There is a crisis in this world - the white walkers - that threaten to overwhelm all of Westeros. But that also applies to the death of Robert Baratheon and the fall of the Seven Kingdoms into war. So now the very people that could have stood together against this threat are warring between themselves, throwing away the defenses they had and becoming ill-prepared for "winter".

It's all about the Ant and the Grasshopper. Instead of putting in the hard work now, the characters do what is immediately expedient to their goals - and that leads to their downfall.

Instead of building up a power base against Cersi and retreating when he's been outmaneuvered, Ned refuses to compromise his morals.

Instead of acknowledging Stannis' stronger claim, Renly rebels against his brother.

Instead of following his father's orders, Theon sacks Winterfell.

Instead of honoring his betrothal, Robb marries Jeyne Westerling.

Premise (acting today instead of preparing for tomorrow) followed. These characters are all maimed, tortured, and/or killed for their mistakes. Dark fantasy tone? Check.

Now, poorly defined characters - let's use Red Letter Media's test. Describe some of these characters without using physical traits.

Ned is noble, duty-bound, and stoic.
Cersi is a bitter, conniving hedonist that loves her children.
Tywin puts what he thinks is best for the Lannister family above all else.
Catelyn worries incessantly and will compromise her beliefs if it saves someone she loves.
Stannis is uncompromising to the point of psychosis, unconcerned with the views of others, and driven to see his goals achieved at nearly any cost.
Tyrion is mischievous, devious, politically adroit, and intelligent.

I could probably do this for every POV character.

...which, actually, I've read the books. So if you're looking to debate people who have ONLY seen the show, well damn, I'm out.

 

[BramblinTheGnome]

Only seen a few scenes as I walked past the living room while others were watching the show (every single one had a naked person... every single one. You can't convince me this isn't porn, as that's my only experience with it, and if I wanted to watch porn I would do so with less torture and blood involved thank you very much).

However, I did read the first book. Which is the reason that I don't watch the show. While I can't say it's poorly written, the author seems to have no sense of pacing. It is just a series of 40 pages with nothing happening, followed by 2 pages where everyone he told you was important dies, rinse and repeat. Or, the tone of some significant character shifts so dramatically that they might as well have died and been replaced by a new character. And this isn't a "people are complex" shift, it's a complete character shift with only a name attached between the two. Then every single build up he has going is a "NOPE! JUST KIDDING!" twist which I'm sure was supposed to be emotionally significant and appear witty, but I just thought, "Well crap, if you actually followed through with that build up you might have had a cool story going instead of a story that's just everyone's a jerk, then they die." I'm told if I could force my way through the second book that an actual story finally forms in the 3rd. Yeah... that's not happening anytime soon. Though I didn't completely hate the first book, so maybe someday, But I think I'll wait until he finishes writing the story (see, now I never have to worry about reading the books)

 

[burningdragoon]

I like the show, but I think you're points were fine. Maybe a little poorly structured since you tried to get them all in a such a short amount of time (;D)

Did you really just criticise a show for having characters and scenes that were written by a person? Because that seems a bit... odd, to say the least. I mean, "they're only doing that because they were written that way" is true of all fiction, it doesn't take away from any impact or significance or whatever you might draw from it, surely?

Generally speaking, should a character get points for doing something when it's not improbable the reasons behind the writer's decision for the act are less noble?

Or specifically, if a woman character, who is created/written by a man, uses her sexuality as empowerment, does that count as female empowerment or male wish fulfillment? Maybe both, it's hard to say. That's what I believe he was getting at though.

 

[RealRT]

Of course not, it's a great show.

 

[jdarksun]

Ah, gotcha: "Game of Thrones surprise me, make me care." You're spite watching dude. It's cool that the show didn't grab ya, I'm sorry to hear that. But watching to just to find stuff to gripe about doesn't make your viewpoint more right, especially when you're actively disinterested in the characters.

 

[Stu35]

II await the remainder of this thread with baited breath. I've really gotten into coming on the internet to read the thoughts of people getting genuinely emotional in their defence of things they like, or what they feel is a misinterpretation of something they like.

Honestly It's not that people don't have the right to not like a show. When they take the time to make a video about it, filled with lazy armchair criticism and fairly baseless accusations about the show, I get a little miffed.

This guy doesn't even understand the basic plot of the show.

And?

I don't understand the basics plot of Geordie Shore (Well, I think I do - I think it's premise is "A bunch of glow-in-the-dark-orange people shagging"), it doesn't mean I can't make a video about how shit it is (I haven't, and wouldn't, but I totally could if I wanted).

Don't get me wrong, you're well within your rights to get uppity about said video, just know that there are cynical, acerbic people like me out there who find that to be highly amusing.

 

[daibakuha]

snip

Everything you've said about the books, also applies really well to the show. So carry on good sir.

 

[hawk533]

Having only read the first 2 and a half books and not seen the show, I agree completely with almost everything Chris said. Even the books have stupid unnecessary sex because "reasons". The "Winter is Coming" thing was fine in the first book, but there's so much political intrigue going on that George RR Martin forgot to move the plot along through most of the second book.

The only thing that's marginally better in the books is all the names. And that's only because I remember things better when I see and read them and I have the ability to quickly flip to the back of the book to make sure the person is who I think it is.

I don't think Game of Thrones is terrible, but it is insanely overrated.

 

[ExtraDebit]

I like the show but agree with what was said in the video, it IS disjointed and felt like a story told by an old guy rambling. The reason why it works for me and I continue liking it it's because it takes itself very seriously, the actors BELIEVE in their roles and bring the audience into their world, mesmerized.

As for why YOU or anyone in particular should like the show, the answer is: why not? there's enough shit in life to not like, taking game of throne off that list would only make you a happier person.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I don't mind anyone disliking this show, but I find it a bit... odd that you criticize a show that is about a lot of characters and their family relations, and political motives set in a fantasy world, to have a lot of characters, their family relations and politcal motives set in a fantasy world.

That's not lack of tone. That is the tone. In your opinion 'tone' is apparently focus on just fantasy, or just politics.

There's plenty of legitemate criticism to throw at Game of Thrones, but this isn't one of them. That's like me saying 'I don't like sci-fi, aliens, and horror, that's why Alien is bad.'

 

[NearLifeExperience]

Joke's on you, Chris. I haven't even seen the show once, nor do I plan to. I do however, enjoy all these silly angry people, just what I had hoped.

 

[Mikeyfell]

I have to respond to a 7 minute video with a 30 second clip?

Is there any limit to how long the comment can be.
All 30 seconds gives you time to do is say "It's good because it's good." and maybe an ad hominem.

The rules seem remarkably stacked against the rebuttal.

 

[JaceArveduin]

Well, from what I've seen of it, I ended up with a couple of characters I cared what happened to, and then just sorta sat through the other half of it all waiting for it to get back to the ones I wanted to follow.

I really do need to try and read the books, though, it's just gaming gets in the way of my reading

 

[Firefilm]

I have to respond to a 7 minute video with a 30 second clip?

Is there any limit to how long the comment can be.
All 30 seconds gives you time to do is say "It's good because it's good." and maybe an ad hominem.

The rules seem remarkably stacked against the rebuttal.

You can write as long a rebuttal as you like. We will compile all of them, arm Kyle with the material, and have a rematch later.

The better your comments, the better chance Kyle has!

 

[Darknacht]

I agree the show is just an excuse to look at sex and violence while claiming to be mature. Wanting to watch sex and violence is fine just don't pretend its anything else.

 

[Baldr]

If you watch the show and have not read the books.... your doing it wrong. Also listen to the podcasts every other episode here on the escapist, very well discussions on everything GoT.

 

[Tiamat666]

The Game of Thrones is not meant for the feeble of mind.

I get it if you think it's confusing. There are many characters and many plot threads moving around in complex ways at the same time. The GoT universe is packed with legacies, cultures, kingdoms, fates, prophecies, creatures and characters. The books are even harder because you don't have any faces and visuals to associate with, except for what your mind is able to produce.

But the sheer epic complexity of the world and the plot is one of the main reasons why it's one of the greatest, if not the greatest, fantasy works of all time. I actually can hardly believe how a single person is able to come up with all of this and juggle all the countless different elements in its mind to compose a coherent and fascinating story.

Of one thing I am certain. You are wrong. The world and story of Game of Thrones is a masterwork. However I understand that it's not everyone's cup of coffee.

In the Game of Thrones, you win or you just don't get it.

 

[Drakoorr]

Did you really just criticise a show for having characters and scenes that were written by a person? Because that seems a bit... odd, to say the least. I mean, "they're only doing that because they were written that way" is true of all fiction, it doesn't take away from any impact or significance or whatever you might draw from it, surely?

Generally speaking, should a character get points for doing something when it's not improbable the reasons behind the writer's decision for the act are less noble?

Or specifically, if a woman character, who is created/written by a man, uses her sexuality as empowerment, does that count as female empowerment or male wish fulfillment? Maybe both, it's hard to say. That's what I believe he was getting at though.

If it's sufficiently well written that the empowerment is genuine, then at worst the answer is both. And do keep in mind, we are largely assuming (though not unwarrantedly, I'll admit) that all these scenes were written as wish fulfillment; even if some were, there might be others that were sincere all along. It is possible for the same author to do both, after all.

Given this, the criticism doesn't really work. I think.

 

[Shjade]

On the other hand, not being able to follow the show is a problem on his part, not the show. Yes, it involves many different story lines, some of which are political, some are interpersonal, some are fantastical, some are epic battles. There are tons of characters and it is confusing to keep track of the relationships all of the characters have, because they keep changing. Political alliances come and go. It is hard to tell who is a bad guy and who is the good guys some of the time. That's one of the show's strengths, not weaknesses.

It could be a strength if it took enough time to develop each of these branching paths, but as he points out, it tends to be fairly brief on each of them. You can keep track of everything, but it doesn't feel fleshed out. It's kinda jumping all over the place constantly. I mean, I read the books and there were points in the first season that even I was a little unsure of exactly what was going on because I felt like something had been missed or skipped over. I'd figure it out after a minute, but it's still...jarring, at times.

Sidenote: he didn't even point out one of my biggest problems with the show, that being the absence of a couple of key scenes and alterations to others. Why is Littlefinger the one telling Sansa Sandor's story instead of Sandor himself? Why does Tyrion get KO'd by his own guys accidentally before getting his first taste of real battle? "Budget" is usually the answer I'm given for the second question, but come on, that's an incredibly important, character-defining scene there, and they just sorta laugh it off with "Oho ho the dwarf got knocked out in all the hubbub, isn't he funny."

Suffice it to say, I gave the show a full season to win me over. It failed spectacularly to do so.

If you watch the show and have not read the books.... your doing it wrong.

If reading the books is a requirement to understanding the show, the show is badly written.