Nobel laureate forced out of studies after making joke about women

[Terminal Blue]

I get what you are saying, and I'm not arguing that anyone should be able to do that. But one should be allowed to make some jokes that don't harm anyone without people losing their shit because TRIGGERED.

Yeah.. I know I'm coming at it from a different angle, and in a way I have sympathy. I personally feel that older people should have a certain license to be out of touch with modern reality, but it's a license which is born out of their incapability, not the legitimacy of what they're doing. When I worked as a carer I would routinely hear the most horrible, insulting things and just have to smile and nod, and that actually wasn't so bad. It was a gift to those people and it made them happy.

The thing is, smiling and nodding is a luxury you extend people in recognition that they don't know better, and sometimes it's best not to put people who don't know better in public situations where they're going to fuck it up. If you go to an event in the capacity of an ambassador and end up offending the audience, then I think it's safe to say you've fucked it up.

In my mind, it would be pretty monstrous not to dismiss him for what he said irrespective of any social media dramatics, because purely on an institutional level it's not appropriate conduct, and a person who can't maintain appropriate conduct is not functionally different from someone who won't. To let him off would essentially be a vindication of the idea that established researchers are above the rules which apply to the rest of us, and I don't think that's fair. There's something intensely elitist about the idea that "free speech" requires that a few select people can say or do whatever they want while the rest of us eat dick because we haven't paid our dues yet. I don't want to go back to that system, and sometimes that means holding people responsible for what they do even when they feel it shouldn't be as serious as it is.. because for an early career researchers it really would be that serious. They'd lose their whole life's work and the chance to work in the profession Hunt has already made a career out of, and noone would care or raise any outcry because noone would even hear about it. Universities can fill an early career researcher post at the snap of a finger, they don't even have to pay minimum wage.. people will work on the mere chance that they might be paid later. You can say that's not fair either, but it is the way it is. None of the people caught in this system chose it, why should someone like Tim Hunt believe they should just be able to wave the consequences away?

 

[maninahat]

Who really needs criticism for firing the guy? His employers. Given a week, this would have died down to nothing but an embarrassing memory for one scientist and an occasional reference for talks on women in STEM. But the institution decided to force a resignation out of the guy, either because they placed a disproportionate value in Twitter based outrage, or they themselves took the guy's quip way too seriously. There are other ways to punish employees, and practically any of those would have been more suitable.

So now not only does the institute look bad, but the general public are laying the whole blame on anyone who complained about this guy's stupid remarks - even though there shouldn't be anything wrong with mocking or condemning what he said.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Ahh, now it makes sense. You're jelly.

No. Just bitter.

I would love to hear the tale when your loved ones get really really sick, and you can sit by their bed and explain to them how the advancement and development of modern medicine wasn't as important as being jealous and outraged.

Maybe when your loved ones get really, really sick, you can sit by their bed and explain to them why it was more important to pay an old man to tell women in Korea about their crying habits than to actually give a salary to a young researcher who might have found a cure for whatever is making them sick.

Piss on your homilies.

 

[K12]

I am really disappointed that a number of people who criticise others for "listening and believing" are completely ignoring some important facts in this situation:

Sir Tim Hunt, who is a Royal Society fellow, reportedly told a conference in South Korea women in labs "cry" when you criticise them and "fall in love" with their male counterparts.

He told the BBC he "did mean" the remarks but was "really sorry"....adding it was "a very stupid thing to do in the presence of all those journalists".

"I did mean the part about having trouble with girls," he said. "It is true that people - I have fallen in love with people in the lab and people in the lab have fallen in love with me and it's very disruptive to the science because it's terribly important that in a lab people are on a level playing field.

"I found that these emotional entanglements made life very difficult.

"I'm really, really sorry I caused any offence, that's awful. I certainly didn't mean that. I just meant to be honest, actually."

"It's terribly important that you can criticise people's ideas without criticising them and if they burst into tears, it means that you tend to hold back from getting at the absolute truth.

"Science is about nothing but getting at the truth and anything that gets in the way of that diminishes, in my experience, the science."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33077107

It should be noted that it was not even a quick quip as some present it either:

Connie St Louis, a lecturer in science journalism at City University, was in the 100-strong audience in South Korea..."The Korean female scientists who hosted us looked aghast and he just ploughed on for about five to seven minutes."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33077107

His defence that it was a joke simply cannot stand either, given that he stands by his comments.

The British biochemist, who was knighted in 2006, said the remarks were "intended as a light-hearted, ironic comment" but had been "interpreted deadly seriously by my audience".

He went on to say he stood by some of the remarks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33077107

The fact he is being supported by the likes of Brian Cox and Boris Johnson is a shame - particularly since the latter is not really making things any better:

But Mr Johnson said the response was an "overreaction" and it was not wrong to point out "gender differences"...said it was scientific fact that women cried more than men...did not deserve to be "pilloried" for pointing out "a natural phenomenon", he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33137497

That is not the context of the comments, Mr. Johnson.

It is unfortunate that he had to lose his job over this, but as a Noble Laureate you are essentially a scientific ambassador to the wider world (never mind your duties as a representative of your university as a professor; nor that whilst speaking in a professional capacity you are expected to be professional) and comments such as his can be argued to harm the perception of science and deter bright minds who would otherwise be interested in following scientific careers.

You see whenever I see a story that says something along the lines of "hard-working high-achieving man sacked for making one anti-PC" comment. I always get the suspicion that this is probably the latest in a long line of such comments but it's often hard to actually find that kind of thing out and I don't want to make assumptions... so thanks for doing all my work for me.

I still think him losing his job completely is a bit harsh if there is an option to simply be more selective about the events he goes to (why send him to a gathering of female scientists if you know he acts like that?) but basically this story is actually "University representative gets sacked for consistently representing his University badly" with the sub-header "Old man is out of touch with modern world". Probably wouldn't get so many hits with those headlines though.

 

[Fallow]

Ahh, now it makes sense. You're jelly.

No. Just bitter.

I would love to hear the tale when your loved ones get really really sick, and you can sit by their bed and explain to them how the advancement and development of modern medicine wasn't as important as being jealous and outraged.

Maybe when your loved ones get really, really sick, you can sit by their bed and explain to them why it was more important to pay an old man to tell women in Korea about their crying habits than to actually give a salary to a young researcher who might have found a cure for whatever is making them sick.

Piss on your homilies.

Broseph, that's a quick story. She ain't getting paid cause she ain't doing good enough.

 

[fenrizz]

Jesus Christ, when did people become such little bitches that so grossly overreact to anything that isn't absolutely PC. Get a grip. How are real issues supposed to be taken seriously when such a major stink gets raised over menial shit like this.

I would expect most people to be intelligent enough to separate real issues from small issues. It isn't really that difficult.

You'd think so, but apparantly there is still people out there that think sexism is ok.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Broseph, that's a quick story. She ain't getting paid cause she ain't doing good enough.

If you're talking about my friend, she is getting paid. In fact, she has a teaching position in the states and a possible book deal coming up. She's fine.. which is not to say it hasn't been fucking difficult getting there. She is massively in debt, but anyone who doesn't have rich parents and wants to work in academia will end up in debt nowadays so that says nothing.

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that she would not have a job, and none of us would, if they went around doing unprofessional bullshit instead of actually.. you know.. doing their jobs. That is the definition of not being good enough.

 

[NeutralStasis]

In my mind, this sacking of people that don't go along with the ideology of others is a slippery slope even in the best of times. You can be upset at something someone says, you can agree to disagree, but to seek out and destroy someone because they see things differently is fucking insane.

I know that I will get a lot of hate from those a little left of the mark, but ponder this...if a point in time comes to pass that your views and ideology is no longer the "good" one, would you like to have the same treatment. Would you like to be fired because of something that you said? When it comes down to it, I disagree with Mr. Scientist. I think everyone who wants to be in the STEM sciences and has the aptitude, should be welcomed eagerly. But, I will not remove his right to believe what he believes. It is a BAD IDEA.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

And I've personally got 10 days in SIZO for calling Mr. President a ****. Fucking HOW does mine or yours suffering from a not very just system absolves said systems flaws?

"Oh, everyone gets fired if they piss off their employer!"
YES! And some time ago everyone got fired if they pissed off the Party, and somehow we found enough consciousness in ourselves to say "Hey guys, you know what? This is not right!"

So hyperbole, got it. By all means ... we should create a system where the indebted, who employ you at personal risk, can be ridiculed on their own private property or during public events? People have the right to ask you to leave if you are not a fit rolemodel of the company. This is not some crime of the century. Pretending like an employer telling you that you're fired is equivalent to being thrown in jail because you said something mean about your Soviet Premier is HARDLY comparable.

If I had workers calling me a **** in my place of business, I would take them aside and tell them quite clearly that I am asking for their resignation. If only to spare them the embarassment of being told to leave. Pretending this is equivalent to 3 years labour in a work camp is ridiculous.

My boss had a right to fire me. I lost my cool with some particularly stupid customers complaining about how their food got cold, because they ordered so much and I personally WARNED THEM that bringing out all the mains AT ONCE meant that some dishes would naturally be cold if eaten at the same rate of other dishes with a burner to keep them warm. I did not handle the situation well. I would likely never do it again. I regretted what I said, even though what I said wasn't as mindlessly stupid or public as this. But my EMPLOYER would have no ideas as to my regret. Would have no idea whether I would say what I said again. And thus, why, you don't see me complaining that it was 'unjust'.

It's not fair. But it's not unjustified. There is a difference. Because we're humans... (natural exceptions for Uwe Boll apply).

Well, if our society is AWWRIGHT and it's functioning does not produce any sort of conflicts - why is this entire feminism thing is a thing? Why, maybe because society IS flawed in a plenty of regards and people are looking for ways to right their wrongs?

What exactly would you write into law that would stop employers from firing employees over what they say or do in the workforce? Or are we to assume that any discourse should be welcome anywhere, even on someone else's private property or as a representative of a company?

So, freedom of speech is not an issue if we delegate the punishing power from government to anyone else? Well, I will become rich, get me a monopoly in some field and will destroy careers and livelihood of anyone who says something I don't like. That would be totally cool, right?

Please stop pretending like you understand what freedom of speech is. Free expression does not stop you from being unemployable because of what you say. It stops a government from unjustly penalizing, or restraining you, for what you say. You have every right to talk .... I have every right to kick you off private property. You have every right to say what you want, you have no rights to me paying you to say what you want to say. You have every right to say what you want to say, I have every right to not have to listen to you.

If you're expecting me to grant you audience, payment, or protection of labour regardless of what you say, you are effectively telling me that my rights to be free of your garbage, my rights to choose my associations beyond the specifics of my obligations, are invalid. In which case, free speech is no longer free. It costs someone their rights.

Like Anita Sarkeesian says: "That is the problem"

I don't give a flying fuck what someone else has to say. It makes sense. That's enough.

 

[And Man]

Hahahahahahahahah. Holy shit the responses to this thread are fucking ridiculous. "Muh freedom of speech." It doesn't matter what your views on "freedom of speech" or "SJWs" are. He wasn't making a joke to coworkers or some shit like that. The man was making a public speech as a guest at a luncheon and insulted his entire audience while officially representing his employer. Ya know, kinda like all those journalists that wrote those stupid "gamers are dead" articles, except worse because it's in a goddamn professional and educational environment. And no, it wasn't even a joke. He just claimed that it was once a shitstorm started brewing to try and alleviate it. The man getting fired is just standard business handling of such an issue. The people complaining about him getting fired clearly have no understanding of professionalism or business and workplace standards.

Like, holy shit. Choose your fucking battles better. Both sides. Instead of claiming that every instance of "SJW political correctness" or every instance of "misogyny" is the end of the fucking world, maybe take a little fucking context into consideration and stop being such a blind extremist?

 

[Beliyal]

When it comes down to it, I disagree with Mr. Scientist. I think everyone who wants to be in the STEM sciences and has the aptitude, should be welcomed eagerly. But, I will not remove his right to believe what he believes. It is a BAD IDEA.

I fail to see how his right to believe what he wants to believe is being removed. He can still believe women are overly sensitive crybabies, but his employers don't want him to represent them like that because they disagree. He can still believe that and maybe find employers who will accept his views and promote them.

When you are employed anywhere in the world, there are rules to adhere to. You, as an employee, represent the company or university you work for. If your behaviour reflects badly on the company or university, your employers have all the right in the world to fire you. They are not removing your right to believe in what you want, they are just not obligated to have you around to misrepresent their company, affect their public appearance and potentially push away customers.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It really shouldn't have taken to the third page for someone to say this.

Tumblr never got him fired. Twitter never got him fired. His superiors fired him because he said something that damaged their image.

This is so common that it makes me wonder if the people thinking this is outrageous have ever even had a job. Hell I was told I would be fired from my last job if I said sorry to a customer if they hurt themselves in the store.

He got fired by the university for the comments he made. This is the real world, this isn't new.

It isn't new for people to be fired for embarrassing their employer, no.

It is relatively new that things you say/do might end up on social media and get signal boosted to an almost ridiculous degree.

I'm reminded of...what was it. That dongle thing. The guys making dongle jokes. And they got fired for making dongle jokes because a woman at the tech conference took a picture and put them up on social media and a shitstorm ensued. And then there was a backlash and SHE got fired. Who won, there? Was that business as usual in any respect?

I have no idea if Hunt deserved to be fired or not, that's between Hunt and his employer. What I do know is that I DON'T know, and that my opinions on the subject don't amount to a hill of beans.

 

[Gorrath]

Hahahahahahahahah. Holy shit the responses to this thread are fucking ridiculous. "Muh freedom of speech." It doesn't matter what your views on "freedom of speech" or "SJWs" are. He wasn't making a joke to coworkers or some shit like that. The man was making a public speech as a guest at a luncheon and insulted his entire audience while officially representing his employer. Ya know, kinda like all those journalists that wrote those stupid "gamers are dead" articles, except worse because it's in a goddamn professional and educational environment. And no, it wasn't even a joke. He just claimed that it was once a shitstorm started brewing to try and alleviate it. The man getting fired is just standard business handling of such an issue. The people complaining about him getting fired clearly have no understanding of professionalism or business and workplace standards.

Like, holy shit. Choose your fucking battles better. Both sides. Instead of claiming that every instance of "SJW political correctness" or every instance of "misogyny" is the end of the fucking world, maybe take a little fucking context into consideration and stop being such a blind extremist?

I'm with you; the guy didn't get canned because of a lack of freedom of speech or because he held some silly ideas, he got canned because he had the idiotic idea that a professional luncheon was the place to air out a bunch of his personal baggage. I'm not for firing everyone who ever says something stupid or controversial either, but that's up to the employer to decide since it is their reputation he's dinging with every stupid remark.

Unfortunately, the successful approach of "weaponizing" identity politics has been noted and adopted by almost everyone these days. "He's a Nobel laureate and knighted for his good work!" So fucking what? My own real identity is linked with what some would consider impressive awards, they would not, should NOT make me immune to the consequences of saying stupid shit. People's ideas should be considered based on the merit of those ideas not the race/religion/sex/gender/name/credit/awards that make up that person's identity. Weaponized identity politics hurts us all and I sorely wish people would stop!

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

He is an old man, old men have old ideas. I think that should have been taken into consideration before asking him to step down. Yes, his comments were sexist, uncalled for, and have no business being said but also a sign of his times. If he failed to apologize or continued on with such things, then I can see asking him to step down privately, he is past retirement age and suggesting it may be time to retire at that point. Forcing him out seems a bit harsh for an old man with old ideas of how the world works. Sexism just as racism should fade when those that promote such things are past. There is no need to hurry them out faster, life is short enough it happens before we know it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

If he failed to apologize or continued on with such things,

He did, he went on to dig himself in deeper, saying that he was joking, but that what he said was absolutely true.

 

[Gorrath]

It really shouldn't have taken to the third page for someone to say this.

Tumblr never got him fired. Twitter never got him fired. His superiors fired him because he said something that damaged their image.

This is so common that it makes me wonder if the people thinking this is outrageous have ever even had a job. Hell I was told I would be fired from my last job if I said sorry to a customer if they hurt themselves in the store.

He got fired by the university for the comments he made. This is the real world, this isn't new.

It isn't new for people to be fired for embarrassing their employer, no.

It is relatively new that things you say/do might end up on social media and get signal boosted to an almost ridiculous degree.

I'm reminded of...what was it. That dongle thing. The guys making dongle jokes. And they got fired for making dongle jokes because a woman at the tech conference took a picture and put them up on social media and a shitstorm ensued. And then there was a backlash and SHE got fired. Who won, there? Was that business as usual in any respect?

I have no idea if Hunt deserved to be fired or not, that's between Hunt and his employer. What I do know is that I DON'T know, and that my opinions on the subject don't amount to a hill of beans.

Emphasis mine. I'd not downplay your opinion so much. You are one voice in a sea of millions but individual voices do matter greatly. What has really changed is that the populace wield enormous power through social media. Within a single generation, people have had to go from only really having to worry about the opinion of those who were influential in the media to having to worry about the opinion of we, the mob. In a lot of ways this is a good thing, it is a form of democratizing opinion by making the opinion of the masses have serious weight. The problem is that we, the mob, are often poorly informed, badly educated or both. So what we need to do is temper our opinions, restrain our emotions and educate ourselves as best we're able so that we can wield this new power with thoughtful consideration.

The idea that, because we are individuals in a massive sea of individuals, our opinions don't matter, becomes cause for shirking this responsible handling of social media power. If we want the social lynch mobs to end, we need to realize just how important every one person in that mob is and we must be conscious of how little we know, just like you are in this case. Bravo for expressing that sentiment but don't underestimate your own opinion.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

If he failed to apologize or continued on with such things,

He did, he went on to dig himself in deeper, saying that he was joking, but that what he said was absolutely true.

Yes, it could have been suggested he retire.. he is well within retirement age at this point. I feel bad for old men and their old distorted views. LOL

 

[Yan007]

Tells joke about girls crying when criticized.

Is forced to resign because girls won't stop crying about what he said.

Am I the only one seeing that angle?

 

[RealRT]

Because it doesn't matter how smart you are and how much have your research helped humanity, if you allow yourself anything that can be interpreted as sexist - you are pedophile Hitler. Good job, good job. It's like that other time when a scientist got hounded for appearing in a shirt with bikini-clad ladies on it in public.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Yes, it could have been suggested he retire.. he is well within retirement age at this point. I feel bad for old men and their old distorted views. LOL

You're aware that you are displaying something that cannot be described in any way other than "age discrimination"?

Coming from someone who is so intolerant of discrimination by sex, it sounds almost hypocritical!

I am doing no such thing. I know quite a few old men who share no such views, of course the ones I know like that come from a culture that never shared such views of women so of course they wouldn't think such things. Him coming from a culture that had such distorted and disturbing views of women is not relation to him being old, however, him being old is just a part of the circle of life, and with that, much of what has been changed since his prime will pass with his generation, Some good and and some bad. I feel bad for old people because they often do not know any better. There is a reason we take care of our young AND our old, they need us to. That is not discrimination, it is part of human existence. I am the legal guardian for both my parents and helped care for my grandmother before her passing. That is just part of life when you get old, you will need someone to care for you as well.

It is not discriminating against him for being old by suggesting he retire, if he had been young, he should be fired. Retirement is an improvement over being fired. Having someone who is racist or sexist in a position of seniority over those in the field is not something that should be accepted.