Obesity Discrimination

[Timberwolf0924]

I...don't see why it's such a bad thing to encourage people not to be obese.

Because you're encroaching on their lifestyle of being fat. Even if it's for their best life, it's like telling a smoker that smoking will kil them. My brother smokes and he hates it when someone tells him smoking is bad.

He knows it's bad but doesn't care

The guy weighing 28 stone knows he's unhealty; doesn't care

 

[Sougo]

I'm kinda divided over whether I should view obesity as a disease or as a crime.

But hey, no discrimination here...

 

[Thyunda]

I...don't see why it's such a bad thing to encourage people not to be obese.

Because you're encroaching on their lifestyle of being fat. Even if it's for their best life, it's like telling a smoker that smoking will kil them. My brother smokes and he hates it when someone tells him smoking is bad.

He knows it's bad but doesn't care

The guy weighing 28 stone knows he's unhealty; doesn't care

Well if he doesn't care, he won't mind being discriminated against. We make drugs illegal and create a negative social stigma surrounding it, we prevent cigarettes being advertised on television and we label modern youth as 'binge drinkers'.
If we don't have the motivation to look after ourselves, it's down to our community to do that for us. Nobody should be able to put themselves, and their body, in that state.

 

[TehCookie]

If there is a fat person who is confident, knows how to dress, and will admit they enjoy food which is why they're fat I have no problem with them. I hate the ones that are in denial or attack others because of their insecurities. I'm captain obvious, I will point it out. I was out shopping with fat people and they complained how hard it is to find cloths that fit, and I said skinny people have that same problem and they got mad. It was also ironic since we were in a plus size specialty store and I don't know of any specialty stores for tall or skinny girls.

 

[The_Echo]

Yeah, discrimination against fat people exists. And yeah, discrimination is bad.

But being fat isn't like being gay or black or what-have-you. Unless you have some sort of medical condition (like something with your thyroid) then generally you're able to help yourself from being obese.

Personally, I think it's wrong for people to encourage accepting one's own obesity. It isn't a trait one should use to help define themselves. There's this attitude I've seen around that "real women" aren't skinny or whatever. That's kind of discriminating against non-overweight women, but that's another issue.

Being obese is a health concern, plain and simple. Nobody should be OK with it.

 

[Timberwolf0924]

I...don't see why it's such a bad thing to encourage people not to be obese.

Because you're encroaching on their lifestyle of being fat. Even if it's for their best life, it's like telling a smoker that smoking will kil them. My brother smokes and he hates it when someone tells him smoking is bad.

He knows it's bad but doesn't care

The guy weighing 28 stone knows he's unhealty; doesn't care

Well if he doesn't care, he won't mind being discriminated against. We make drugs illegal and create a negative social stigma surrounding it, we prevent cigarettes being advertised on television and we label modern youth as 'binge drinkers'.
If we don't have the motivation to look after ourselves, it's down to our community to do that for us. Nobody should be able to put themselves, and their body, in that state.

Oh, I agree, I mean I think it's insane when you have someone who tries to do eveything a smaller person tries.
eg.. I was at Six Flag, and there was a big guy waiting in line, we made it to the front and after like 1hr of waiting they tried to close the bar and he was to big. Now the design flaw in the machine (the larest person is as far as the bar can close on the whole train) is partly to blame because if he was riding, no one else was safe. But he gave a chuckle and there was a look of self hate in his eyes. Its one of those things that if you caught it you'd know. But went on his merry way.

Moral:
He found out he was to fat to do what he wanted, and society let him know quick..

I'm hoping he dropped weight and rode the hell outta that ride later in life

 

[Thyunda]

I...don't see why it's such a bad thing to encourage people not to be obese.

Because you're encroaching on their lifestyle of being fat. Even if it's for their best life, it's like telling a smoker that smoking will kil them. My brother smokes and he hates it when someone tells him smoking is bad.

He knows it's bad but doesn't care

The guy weighing 28 stone knows he's unhealty; doesn't care

Well if he doesn't care, he won't mind being discriminated against. We make drugs illegal and create a negative social stigma surrounding it, we prevent cigarettes being advertised on television and we label modern youth as 'binge drinkers'.
If we don't have the motivation to look after ourselves, it's down to our community to do that for us. Nobody should be able to put themselves, and their body, in that state.

Oh, I agree, I mean I think it's insane when you have someone who tries to do eveything a smaller person tries.
eg.. I was at Six Flag, and there was a big guy waiting in line, we made it to the front and after like 1hr of waiting they tried to close the bar and he was to big. Now the design flaw in the machine (the larest person is as far as the bar can close on the whole train) is partly to blame because if he was riding, no one else was safe. But he gave a chuckle and there was a look of self hate in his eyes. Its one of those things that if you caught it you'd know. But went on his merry way.

Moral:
He found out he was to fat to do what he wanted, and society let him know quick..

I'm hoping he dropped weight and rode the hell outta that ride later in life

I mean I hope I'm not coming across as some kind of chubby-hater 'cause I'm really not. I won't refuse to be associated with somebody for being obese, but I will encourage them to lose weight. I like people to be energetic and healthy, and that's kinda hard to do if you're obese. I specify obese 'cause I know a few larger people and their stamina and energy outmatches my own on occasion, so really, there's no criticism there.

But yeah - it's for their own good. Not for any standard of beauty or societal acceptance, but because being clinically obese doesn't help anybody.

 

[MetalGenocide]

Obese people should lose weight. But most can't due to lack of money and/or willpower.
Getting angry at them isn't helping anyone though.

Off topic:
"You can't choose to be gay."
WAT. Of course it's a choice, people are not born as homosexuals.

 

[Timberwolf0924]

I...don't see why it's such a bad thing to encourage people not to be obese.

Because you're encroaching on their lifestyle of being fat. Even if it's for their best life, it's like telling a smoker that smoking will kil them. My brother smokes and he hates it when someone tells him smoking is bad.

He knows it's bad but doesn't care

The guy weighing 28 stone knows he's unhealty; doesn't care

Well if he doesn't care, he won't mind being discriminated against. We make drugs illegal and create a negative social stigma surrounding it, we prevent cigarettes being advertised on television and we label modern youth as 'binge drinkers'.
If we don't have the motivation to look after ourselves, it's down to our community to do that for us. Nobody should be able to put themselves, and their body, in that state.

Oh, I agree, I mean I think it's insane when you have someone who tries to do eveything a smaller person tries.
eg.. I was at Six Flag, and there was a big guy waiting in line, we made it to the front and after like 1hr of waiting they tried to close the bar and he was to big. Now the design flaw in the machine (the larest person is as far as the bar can close on the whole train) is partly to blame because if he was riding, no one else was safe. But he gave a chuckle and there was a look of self hate in his eyes. Its one of those things that if you caught it you'd know. But went on his merry way.

Moral:
He found out he was to fat to do what he wanted, and society let him know quick..

I'm hoping he dropped weight and rode the hell outta that ride later in life

I mean I hope I'm not coming across as some kind of chubby-hater 'cause I'm really not. I won't refuse to be associated with somebody for being obese, but I will encourage them to lose weight. I like people to be energetic and healthy, and that's kinda hard to do if you're obese. I specify obese 'cause I know a few larger people and their stamina and energy outmatches my own on occasion, so really, there's no criticism there.

But yeah - it's for their own good. Not for any standard of beauty or societal acceptance, but because being clinically obese doesn't help anybody.

I'm guessing that the only thing they hate about it, is being judged. No on likes that, if you're tall (I know a guy who's 7'4 and does tattoos. Short.. I'm 5'8 Fat read previous post about an ex somewhere in the escapist. Or thin, I'm asian, so Im always around a group of super thin asians)

No one likes to be judged. But only negativly, tell them that their hair looks good "Thanks man" tell them their lifestyle is killing them "go to hell man" it's a lose lose situation

 

[Thyunda]

I...don't see why it's such a bad thing to encourage people not to be obese.

Because you're encroaching on their lifestyle of being fat. Even if it's for their best life, it's like telling a smoker that smoking will kil them. My brother smokes and he hates it when someone tells him smoking is bad.

He knows it's bad but doesn't care

The guy weighing 28 stone knows he's unhealty; doesn't care

Well if he doesn't care, he won't mind being discriminated against. We make drugs illegal and create a negative social stigma surrounding it, we prevent cigarettes being advertised on television and we label modern youth as 'binge drinkers'.
If we don't have the motivation to look after ourselves, it's down to our community to do that for us. Nobody should be able to put themselves, and their body, in that state.

Oh, I agree, I mean I think it's insane when you have someone who tries to do eveything a smaller person tries.
eg.. I was at Six Flag, and there was a big guy waiting in line, we made it to the front and after like 1hr of waiting they tried to close the bar and he was to big. Now the design flaw in the machine (the larest person is as far as the bar can close on the whole train) is partly to blame because if he was riding, no one else was safe. But he gave a chuckle and there was a look of self hate in his eyes. Its one of those things that if you caught it you'd know. But went on his merry way.

Moral:
He found out he was to fat to do what he wanted, and society let him know quick..

I'm hoping he dropped weight and rode the hell outta that ride later in life

I mean I hope I'm not coming across as some kind of chubby-hater 'cause I'm really not. I won't refuse to be associated with somebody for being obese, but I will encourage them to lose weight. I like people to be energetic and healthy, and that's kinda hard to do if you're obese. I specify obese 'cause I know a few larger people and their stamina and energy outmatches my own on occasion, so really, there's no criticism there.

But yeah - it's for their own good. Not for any standard of beauty or societal acceptance, but because being clinically obese doesn't help anybody.

I'm guessing that the only thing they hate about it, is being judged. No on likes that, if you're tall (I know a guy who's 7'4 and does tattoos. Short.. I'm 5'8 Fat read previous post about an ex somewhere in the escapist. Or thin, I'm asian, so Im always around a group of super thin asians)

No one likes to be judged. But only negativly, tell them that their hair looks good "Thanks man" tell them their lifestyle is killing them "go to hell man" it's a lose lose situation

Nah I just make pursuing an unhealthy lifestyle inconvenient. "Stop walking so fast" "No you stop eating so much" lovely petty childish insults. Course some stranger gets in on the action then they'll find I don't appreciate them calling my friend fat.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Why does it have to be a behavioral basis?

My original example was me being in water versus me being on land. How is that a behavioral difference? I am well aware that genetics can have an affect on obesity, and that some are more prone to it than others, but if it becomes a problem than a different behavioral response is appropriate that it is for a person i a different situation.

Some people need to work harder to maintain a healthy weight, which isn't fair and kind of sucks but such is life.

Here's the trouble: You're presuming on there being a behavioral basis. You're still operating from the presumption that there's a standardized "healthy weight," and that anyone outside of a very narrow range must be "doing it wrong" somehow.

If you eat right, exercise, and are still fat (and yes, it happens more often than you might think, and a hell of a lot more often than the weight-loss industry would like you to think)? Dieting down to some aesthetic standard isn't going to automatically make you healthier. In fact, it can be bad for you.

Are people not capable of acting in their own lives? I think they can do something about their situations, and I think that's a GOOD thing, it would be far worse if you're just born a certain way and then just have to deal with it, which is patently not true. And yes it is a problem! It is a medical condition that has a serious impact on people's lives! Obese people live on average 6-7 years less than non-obese people.

http://www.annals.org/content/138/1/24.full.pdf+html

And it's a narrow range? For someone who is 6 foot tall, a normal weight is found to be 130-170 pounds, if we add in overweight that range extends to 205 pounds. 75 pounds is a narrow range?

And I have already said that there are people with a genetic predisposition towards carrying more weight, but as other people have noted there are MANY factors that are part of this, and it varies WIDELY across countries, and there is NO reason to think that all that variation is due to genetics.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

snip

Alright, since you don't care about the United States, how about Britain? 22 percent of British adults are obese, and that number is estimated to go up to a third of the population by 2020. Do you not care about them either? Here's a ranking of the world's fattest countries and you can finds the ones you do care about http://www.forbes.com/2007/02/07/worlds-fattest-countries-forbeslife-cx_ls_0208worldfat_2.html

(although this combines overweight and obese together, so the numbers are pretty high)

The frightening thing is that this number of people is supposed to grow by 40 percent over the next ten years (and that's ten years from when the article was published in 2007).

"Obesity isn't caused by people, it's caused by obese people"? So you're saying people have no control over it at all? That's just plain not true. If it's genetics then why is the number rising? It's not like people's genes are suddenly getting worse.

And I'm all in favor of a tax on unhealthy foods. Obesity has a direct monetary cost on society, and I see little issue with asking people to pay the cost of their lifestyle. IF it helps people make better choices then that's great, but even if it only pays the bills for them then that's fine.

 

[noble cookie]

As a fat person I feel the need to say something in this thread.

As of this moment in my life, I am lazy and have been in a "can't be fucked" mood for years.
Or maybe it's because i'm 15, unconfident and just don't know how to go about it.

I may find the will to change in the future, maybe soon.

Until then keep on insulting me and I will continue to try to not give a fuck.

(God damn recent threads making me write depressing posts)

 

[Amarok]

I...don't see why it's such a bad thing to encourage people not to be obese.

I'll break it down into chunks

1) Discrimination, stigmatisation and bullying (which is what it is in the end) is not good for people's health. This misconception that you should mock, stigmatise, or belittle an obese person "for their own good" is beyond ridiculous. Studies - REAL studies that is, not ones sponsored by Weight Watchers or Kellog's, have shown that the stress of being constantly stigmatised by people for their weight breeds within people the same illnesses that are perceived as being "obesity diseases", diabetes? Heart problems due to blood-pressure? All capable of being caused by stress. And the idea that pointing out someone's weight is an eye-opener to them... Well, do you really think obese people are walking around UNAWARE that they're obese? When they have TV, Films, Magazines, People On The Street, Friends, Family etc all pointing it out to them every day? You really think your one stupid comment is going to be the one to "save" them?
Bibliography
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/8/128
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2007.114769
fiercefatties.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/nichd-letter.pdf

2) Weight has nothing to do with your health. No, really. Remember how when you were a little kid you got told "people come in all shapes and sizes"? That's still true, it's just that the weight-loss industry is worth $68 billion dollars and it's very good for them to breed a culture of shame, fear, and hatred.
What you eat and how much you exercise is highly unlikely to determine how much you weigh, and in fact it has been shown from as early as 1959 that diet and exercise only cause weightloss in 5% of people, and even then only about 10% of it, so most obese people will still be obese at the end of that.
But here's the thing - eating well and exercising moderately for 30 minutes, 5 times a week completely eliminates all risk of the illnesses associated with obesity. It is possible to be obese and healthy. The idea that you're only healthy when you're thin is incredibly damaging to obese people AND ideal weight people. This line of thinking cause people to go on extreme diets and exercise far too much - and yes, that is a thing - thus putting a strain on their body. You know those contestants of The Biggest Loser Michelle Obama thinks are such a good role-model? They shit, piss and puke blood when you're not looking.
It also causes thin people who don't eat well or exercise to assume that they're fine. In fact, all those "obesity diseases"? Ideal weight people who live poor lifestyles can run afoul of them too.
Bibliography
http://www.jabfm.org/content/25/1/9.abstract?etoc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUaInS6HIGo
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/10/1/9
http://www.rxpgnews.com/obesity/Adolescent_Dieting_May_Predict_Obesity_and_Eating__3907_3907.shtml
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Dieting-Does-Not-Work-UCLA-Researchers-7832.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/17469900
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/10449014
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/1580453
3) Creating a culture where weight is equated with health is seriously dangerous.
You know that scary "obese people are costing healthcare money!" rhetoric that gets thrown around? A fun fact: No matter what your cause of death or illness an obese person, it will get attributed to obesity. We're not the apocalypse you all think/hope we are.
But that's a symptom of a big, big issue - that all an obese persons' ailments are attributed to their obesity. Heart problems, diabetes, high blood pressure, strep throat (seriously), pretty much anything. So when an obese person goes to the doc with a problem, they will almost invariably be told to lose weight. What happens when a thin person goes to the docs with the same issues? They get actual, medically sound advice is what.
Bibliography:
yaleruddcenter.org/resources/upload/docs/what/bias/WeightBiasStudy.pdf
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/steven_blair/
thinkmuscle.com/health/obesity-health-metabolic-fitness/
http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198603063141003
http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/the-true-cost-of-fatties/
http://bigliberty.net/2012/05/11/other-reason-why-fat-person-cost-calculations-are-bogus/

In short, we need to focus on HEALTH, not WEIGHT. What is the actual point of saying "hey you, be less obese!" over "hey you, eat a balanced diet and exercise 30 minutes, 5 times a week!"? Well I can tell you the actual point; money, dear boy. But certainly not health.

 

[Thyunda]

I...don't see why it's such a bad thing to encourage people not to be obese.

I'll break it down into chunks

1) Discrimination, stigmatisation and bullying (which is what it is in the end) is not good for people's health. This misconception that you should mock, stigmatise, or belittle a fat person "for their own good" is beyond ridiculous. Studies - REAL studies that is, not ones sponsored by Weight Watchers or Kellog's, have shown that the stress of being constantly stigmatised by people for their weight breeds within people the same illnesses that are perceived as being "fat diseases", diabetes? Heart problems due to blood-pressure? All capable of being caused by stress. And the idea that pointing out someone's weight is an eye-opener to them... Well, do you really think fat people are walking around UNAWARE that they're fat? When they have TV, Films, Magazines, People On The Street, Friends, Family etc all pointing it out to them every day? You really think your one stupid comment is going to be the one to "save" them?
Bibliography
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/8/128
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2007.114769
fiercefatties.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/nichd-letter.pdf

2) Weight has nothing to do with your health. No, really. Remember how when you were a little kid you got told "people come in all shapes and sizes"? That's still true, it's just that the weight-loss industry is worth $68 billion dollars and it's very good for them to breed a culture of shame, fear, and hatred.
What you eat and how much you exercise is highly unlikely to determine how much you weigh, and in fact it has been shown from as early as 1959 that diet and exercise only cause weightloss in 5% of people, and even then only about 10% of it, so most obese people will still be obese at the end of that.
But here's the thing - eating well and exercising moderately for 30 minutes, 5 times a week completely eliminates all risk of the illnesses associated with obesity. It is possible to be fat and healthy. The idea that you're only healthy when you're thin is incredibly damaging to fat people AND thin people. This line of thinking cause people to go on extreme diets and exercise far too much - and yes, that is a thing - thus putting a strain on their body. You know those contestants of The Biggest Loser Michelle Obama thinks are such a good role-model? They shit, piss and puke blood when you're not looking.
It also causes thin people who don't eat well or exercise to assume that they're fine. In fact, all those "fat diseases"? Thin people who live poor lifestyles can run afoul of them too.
Bibliography
http://www.jabfm.org/content/25/1/9.abstract?etoc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUaInS6HIGo
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/10/1/9
http://www.rxpgnews.com/obesity/Adolescent_Dieting_May_Predict_Obesity_and_Eating__3907_3907.shtml
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Dieting-Does-Not-Work-UCLA-Researchers-7832.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/17469900
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/10449014
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/1580453
3) Creating a culture where weight is equated with health is seriously dangerous.
You know that scary "obese people are costing healthcare money!" rhetoric that gets thrown around? A fun fact: No matter what your cause of death or illness an obese person, it will get attributed to obesity. We're not the apocalypse you all think/hope we are.
But that's a symptom of a big, big issue - that all an obese persons' ailments are attributed to their obesity. Heart problems, diabetes, high blood pressure, strep throat (seriously), pretty much anything. So when a fat person goes to the doc with a problem, they will almost invariably be told to lose weight. What happens when a thin person goes to the docs with the same issues? They get actual, medically sound advice is what.
Bibliography:
yaleruddcenter.org/resources/upload/docs/what/bias/WeightBiasStudy.pdf
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/steven_blair/
thinkmuscle.com/health/obesity-health-metabolic-fitness/
http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198603063141003
http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/the-true-cost-of-fatties/
http://bigliberty.net/2012/05/11/other-reason-why-fat-person-cost-calculations-are-bogus/

In short, we need to focus on HEALTH, not WEIGHT. What is the actual point of saying "hey you, be less fat!" over "hey you, eat a balanced diet and exercise 30 minutes, 5 times a week!"? Well I can tell you the actual point; money, dear boy. But certainly not health.

Put the clipboard down, open dictionary.com and look up the difference between 'fat' and 'obese'.

 

[Abedeus]

snip

Alright, since you don't care about the United States, how about Britain? 22 percent of British adults are obese, and that number is estimated to go up to a third of the population by 2020. Do you not care about them either? Here's a ranking of the world's fattest countries and you can finds the ones you do care about http://www.forbes.com/2007/02/07/worlds-fattest-countries-forbeslife-cx_ls_0208worldfat_2.html

(although this combines overweight and obese together, so the numbers are pretty high)

Poland, 98th.

Yeah, I'm shaking in my booties.

The frightening thing is that this number of people is supposed to grow by 40 percent over the next ten years (and that's ten years from when the article was published in 2007).

"Obesity isn't caused by people, it's caused by obese people"? So you're saying people have no control over it at all? That's just plain not true. If it's genetics then why is the number rising? It's not like people's genes are suddenly getting worse.

How about "Medicine is better and being fat no longer makes you die at 50". Health care is getting better and better, so an obese person lives longer. That means they contribute to the "total amount of fat people" for longer while new "fatties" join the fray.

And that's same reason why general life expectancy is rising. It's not that people suddenly have better genes that allow them to live past 60, or that they stop committing suicide after retirement. Life is getting better and easier. Also most people who are obese or overweight don't work physically - they don't have to. Since more and more people work in the 3rd industry (...or however it's called in English - the non-agriculture one), the less work physically.

And I'm all in favor of a tax on unhealthy foods. Obesity has a direct monetary cost on society, and I see little issue with asking people to pay the cost of their lifestyle. IF it helps people make better choices then that's great, but even if it only pays the bills for them then that's fine.

Taxing unhealthy foods - again, why? They aren't poisonous. They aren't a target for smugglers or crack dealers like drugs or tobacco or alcohol. They don't affect people other than the ones eating them. HOW DOES THIS HAVE AN EFFECT ON OTHER PEOPLE?

 

[Amarok]

Put the clipboard down, open dictionary.com and look up the difference between 'fat' and 'obese'.

Every single study I linked involved obesity. If I personally used the word "fat" I apologise for confusing you, but don't take it as a reason to completely ignore my points. You'd be doing yourself a disservice.

 

[Thyunda]

Put the clipboard down, open dictionary.com and look up the difference between 'fat' and 'obese'.

Every single study I linked involved obesity. If I personally used the word "fat" I apologise for confusing you, but don't take it as a reason to completely ignore my points. You'd be doing yourself a disservice.

Nobody winds up obese without contributing in some way.

 

[Amarok]

Put the clipboard down, open dictionary.com and look up the difference between 'fat' and 'obese'.

Every single study I linked involved obesity. If I personally used the word "fat" I apologise for confusing you, but don't take it as a reason to completely ignore my points. You'd be doing yourself a disservice.

Nobody winds up obese without contributing in some way.

Well I linked an awful lot of literature that disputes that claim, and they all have a lot more experience in the field than you do. But what the hell, you know best, right?

I'll leave you to your bigotry and wilful ignorance. It's all I really can do at this time.

 

[Thyunda]

Put the clipboard down, open dictionary.com and look up the difference between 'fat' and 'obese'.

Every single study I linked involved obesity. If I personally used the word "fat" I apologise for confusing you, but don't take it as a reason to completely ignore my points. You'd be doing yourself a disservice.

Nobody winds up obese without contributing in some way.

Well I linked an awful lot of literature that disputes that claim, and they all have a lot more experience in the field than you do. But what the hell, you know best, right?

I'll leave you to your bigotry and wilful ignorance. It's all I really can do at this time.

If that's how you choose to see it, you obesity apologist.

Not that I knew those existed.