Obsidian accused of transmisogyny in Pillars of Eternity

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

you know, I could be alot more sympathetic to this if there was some sort of threat and/or it wasn't at the expense of the man who ran off the cliff.

it's just impressive to me that someone can get their jimmies so rustled over a very very small poem in a very very out of your way text in a game, when there are millions of other horrible things that would relatively *deserve* that ire and concern.

 

[Pr0]

I never got why showing racism, sexism, etc in fantasy worlds without them being a Bioshock Infinite type where racists=suicidal nazis you have to genocide is terrible? The world Pillars of Eternity is set in doesn't have to obey our standards because it's not our world. Is Game of Thrones a disgusting show because gays are murdered in Westeros and women are treated horribly? No.

Difference is that stuff like that in Bioshock Infinite and Game of Thrones actually serve a purpose within the story and help convey what sort of world it is. This poem does not do that. It is completely detached from the game world and seems to add nothing to it, existing instead as nothing but an insensitive joke someone decided to slip in there. Now I would say that it could be a lot worse, but when actual transgendered people get murdered in today's world just for being transgendered, it's still not exactly promoting acceptance or entirely appropriate. Legitimately tie it into the games world building and I wouldn't have an issue with it, but there's no argument for artistic integrity I can see here. It serves no valid purpose and probably should be changed or removed.

Here comes the histronics. I swear this forum lives for this kind of crap.

The limerick in question doesn't state that the transgendered person in the limerick was harmed in any way, so to take that limerick and turn it around and say "Well TG people get murdered for being TG"....uh...okay, your point is generally valid but not to the current debate? In fact the fact that Jim Sterling switched it around like that....really makes me lose a bit of respect for Jim.

The poem doesn't promote the idea of murdering anyone, it simply says a man ran off a cliff when he bedded a woman that turned out to be a man.

Lets be fair, yes, TG people can be murdered for being TG...but to even address the fact that a straight man who found out he spent all night making out with a transgendered individual could end up killing himself because of it...because thats what the poem is about. And I'm sure there are occurrences of that happening too. The fact that people want to flip it around and make a harmless poem into a cry of victimization when the "victim" in the fictional scenario was the straight man.

Jim's tweet makes no sense. People flipping the scenario around make no sense.

 

[Uratoh]

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945

...I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

capcha: roll over. indeed, capcha.

 

[Pr0]

Sure it is. Its an offensive sentiment held unjustly towards a group of people. So is the sentiment that transgender women are really just men in extreme drag trying to trick straight men into having sex with them. Its perfecly analogous.

I just want to quote this to reiterate why some people are considering this offensive.

This is a sentiment you see all of the time, sometimes to the extent that people will attack and beat the person who "duped" them. Usually it's just used to ridicule them or demonize them for daring to sleep with you without telling them you were really a man. Because god forbid a transexual individual want a sexual encounter as their preferred gender.

It's not the most offensive poem (They were classy enough for him to kill himself instead of her), but I'd say it's pretty tasteless. In a world where this belief wasn't so god damn pervasive maybe I'd assume that the joke was on the man for being intolerant and insecure, but it really comes across as "Ha! You got tricked into sleeping with a man, now isn't that embarrassing?"

Can I ask a sane question? I have no problem with transsexual individuals wishing to live as their preferred gender but don't they have a responsibility to be honest with their potential partners about this? Its one thing to respect someones wishes to be who they want to be, but its another entirely to achieve that desire in a dishonest fashion.

Lets take a completely different example. If I spent all night with a really hot woman, and then after she invited me to her place, she took off a wig, pulled out a set of full dentures to reveal a bunch of meth addict tooth stubs and had a bunch of open sores all over her body where I couldn't see them before she took off her clothes...am I the asshole for suddenly deciding to slow it down and call it a night?

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Pretty sure he's blaming the person that sleeps with random individuals without telling them anything and not knowing how they might react to it. I'd say the same thing to a straight guy sleeping with a straight girl and getting some kind of debilitating STD or the married person sleeping with the unmarried and not telling them they have a spouse, who also is a vengeful and jealous little brat.

Those are two situations that can actually be harmful to you, I don't think they're the least bit comparable. Any "damage" done is simply because the person who was "tricked" considers it undesirable. Better comparison would be small penis or unsightly medical condition.

Frankly, if you feel the desire to beat up or kill someone after you find out they intended to have sex with you using a micropenis, I think you're the one with the problem, not them.

 

[Abomination]

What a bunch of pointless hoo-hah.

I mean, the whole overarching issue of children being murdered en-mass for being born disabled doesn't raise eyebrows but an off-the-cuff epitaph of a fictional character does?

Yeah, trans folk occasionally are killed by their most recent sexual partners upon discovery of their trans status. That didn't happen in this case, it was the non-trans person who killed themselves rather than live with the shame of having slept with a male cross-dresser.

Hey, they were essentially raped. They CONSENTED to sex with a FEMALE.

Talk about victim blaming.

 

[ZiggyE]

Oh this is fun. Turns out the twitter user who initially discovered this and kickstarted this controversy is an outright misandrist who says that men should be holocausted for... being men?

Spoiler

I dunno about you, but these comments seem a lot more inflammatory than a short poem that may or may not have been about someone transsexual.

Coming from a person talking about how important context is, you didn't seem to read the tweets. The first one is pretty blatant:

"no, saying kill all men as a function of marginalized anger is not the same as saying kill all women from you, the oppressor"

I'm not going to touch the whole "oppressor" thing, but its pretty clear based on the tweet that its something they said in anger and frustration, not seriousness. If that wasn't enough to convince you, the next one should:

"lol if you think kill all men is a threat of violence"

Its not serious, something along the lines of "die cis scum" isn't a serious threat. Tasteless? I'd say so, like the joking going on in the other tweets, but its certainly not a threat, and you know better than to try and misrepresent it as such. I thought it was only the dreaded skeletons who misrepresented things? Now one could rightfully say that she's a hypocrite for making such jokes and objecting to the one in PoE, but that sidesteps the fact that other people are finding things wrong with the in-game joke as well.

Jokes about genocide are fine, but poems? Poems are terrible. Right? Progressives everybody.

Yes, because there's no prejudiced beliefs in western culture that trans woman are really just gay men pretending to be women so that they'll trick straight men into having sex with them.

Please continue telling people how they think.

Seriously, ironically saying something like that is misandry? Quit propagandizing here, keep it in KiA, 8chan, or the megathread. Besides, I've see much more leveled at this person in the last hour in earnest than she's probably said ironically in her life. She didn't even "start" this, followers of her went to Obsidian with her tweet to "start" this, she just passively agreed and got dogpiled with mounds of shit.

Now this is just funny. Seriously, I'm not going to let you have your cake and eat it too here. You think this poem is offensive but you're completely fine with someone saying a group of people should be put in concentration camps? That's just ridiculous.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

So what does it mean if I'm trans and find that poem hillarious?

That you've internalized the cis-gender(used correctly) hyper-violent transmisogyny church of oppression that is Kickstarter and Obsidian.

 

[HardkorSB]

@icequeenerika, eh?
You're an ice queen indeed.

 

[Jark212]

*cringe*

the 2010 decade will be known as the decade of whining, sweet jesus out of all the problems in the world someone could have, they are offended over that...

Pretty much this, but I choose to call it the "Hurt Feelings" movement. Where people are not allowed to their own opinions on certain subjects...

 

[Skatologist]

Now this is just funny. Seriously, I'm not going to let you have your cake and eat it too here. You think this poem is offensive but you're completely fine with someone saying a group of people should be put in concentration camps? That's just ridiculous.

I never said I thought the joke was offensive. :/

Jokes about genocide are fine, but poems? Poems are terrible. Right? Progressives everybody.

Oh really, two can play at this game. The same people offended by a joke about a fucking sock only days prior made rape and death threats/jokes.

Jokes about rape and death are fine, but socks? Sock are terrible. Right? Gamergate everybody.

 

[Fdzzaigl]

Rite...

Despite my firm belief that we still have a ways to go in terms of tolerance for our fellow men and women of any conviction; a huge problem these days seems to be that people will get butthurt over anything and everything.

Let the emotions behind a little bit and don't assume you know the real intention behind what someone wrote / said.

 

[J Tyran]

This is a sentiment you see all of the time, sometimes to the extent that people will attack and beat the person who "duped" them. Usually it's just used to ridicule them or demonize them for daring to sleep with you without telling them you were really a man. Because god forbid a transexual individual want a sexual encounter as their preferred gender.

So straight men who are uncomfortable with the idea have no rights? Not that I'm justifying abuse, violence, murder or anything because nothing justifies that so don't try and flip it around that way or strawman and just answer the question directly.

I have great sympthy for transexual people, it cannot be easy based on everything I have read and watched but when people are having a sexual encounter the rights and wishes of each person involved need to be respected. They should never be ridiculed but they need to have the same respect for anyone they sleep with and take their wishes into account, that respect is an important part of consent.

Can that lead to some awkward or difficult discussions? At times certainly, I doubt its always possible to sound the topic out in a roundabout way. In the best possible world it wouldn't be necessary as people wouldn't care we don't live in that world though, gender realignment, hormones and other treatments are all fairly new to society and it may take time for perceptions to change (if ever).

I also wonder why the focus is on Men and Male to Female transgendered people here as well, I bet there have been instances of verbal abuse, discrimination and/or of physical violence to some degree when other transgendered people have had sex with a gender/sexuality that are uncomfortable with the idea without prior knowledge.

 

[StreamerDarkly]

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945

...I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

capcha: roll over. indeed, capcha.

Bahaha, wow. That it's none other than Ian Heils Cheong making the request only adds to the madness of this exhibition. This is a man whose past transgressions on social media and internet discussion boards are dark enough to make J Sterling and B Kuchera look like choir boys. It's always the reformers who become the most fervent proponents of the cause.

 

[ZiggyE]

I would argue that by saying "the last woman turned out a man" they are putting some of it on her well. They're saying that she's not a woman, which disrespects her. Like I mentioned in response to the quote above yours, there's a simple fix that keeps the primary intention of the joke while cutting out the transphobic implication.

Or, you know, maybe it wasn't a transsexual and just was a man dressed like a woman. It was actually quite common in historical periods. For example all the women in Shakespeare's plays were men dressed up to act as women. Have you tried getting in touch with the backer who wrote it or are you just assuming?

[ I never said I thought the joke was offensive. :/

Then why are you trying to get it removed?

Oh really, two can play at this game. The same people offended by a joke about a fucking sock only days prior made rape and death threats/jokes.

Jokes about rape and death are fine, but socks? Sock are terrible. Right? Gamergate everybody.

No one was "offended" by Tim Shafer's performance, they just called it out for the stupidity that it was. And this meme that GamerGate regularly makes rape and death threats needs to die already, because it has no basis in reality. Why are you bringing up Tim Shafer and GamerGate anyway? It has absolutely nothing to do with the latest progressive campaign to censor developers because of their hurt feelings.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Can I ask a sane question? I have no problem with transsexual individuals wishing to live as their preferred gender but don't they have a responsibility to be honest with their potential partners about this? Its one thing to respect someones wishes to be who they want to be, but its another entirely to achieve that desire in a dishonest fashion.

Lets take a completely different example. If I spent all night with a really hot woman, and then after she invited me to her place, she took off a wig, pulled out a set of full dentures to reveal a bunch of meth addict tooth stubs and had a bunch of open sores all over her body where I couldn't see them before she took off her clothes...am I the asshole for suddenly deciding to slow it down and call it a night?

No, you aren't. You would be if you attack and demean them for it though. If it comes out that you find you're just not attracted to them, you have no obligation to continue with sex. As long as you're a decent person in letting them down about it, because that would feel really shitty to have someone tell you.

It might be more courteous to tell someone beforehand, and might probably make things go smoother too, but how often do you want to kill the mood with "Oh, hey, I was born a man, so if you're still okay with this...", or "Before we continue I want you to know I am missing a lot of teeth"? But I wouldn't accuse someone of tricking someone else if they don't want to give their biological history before any intimate encounter

 

[ZiggyE]

This is a sentiment you see all of the time, sometimes to the extent that people will attack and beat the person who "duped" them. Usually it's just used to ridicule them or demonize them for daring to sleep with you without telling them you were really a man. Because god forbid a transexual individual want a sexual encounter as their preferred gender.

So straight men who are uncomfortable with the idea have no rights?

Yes. If you are a man you have no right to refuse a strongk independent transsexual women if you thought she was born female but then it turns out she wasn't, otherwise you're a bigot. Or at least that's what progressives have told me in the past.

Captcha: against the grain

 

[skyn3t]

This is borderline retarded.
So what if someone makes a joke poem like this?
And who cares if a straight dude is skeeved out that he slept with a man who looked like a woman?
How does someome get "transvestite" out of "thought he was a woman"?
It could have been a dude who was very feminine looking for no reason?
Obviously went he went to go the business he then found out that she wasn't a she.

Why the fuck am I even breaking something like this down?

So what the original poster is saying is that a straight man, should be like "woops, I was just making out with and getting all feely with what I thought was a woman, that's cool."
Yet, there is no recourse for the trans for simply not being forth right towards that man?

Sure, some trans men can look just like women, hell even more attractive than some women, but if ones preference is towards women and not towards men at all, then that's their preference.
It'd be the same if the man was gay, another woman was dressed and looked like a man and then the gay guy found out that who he thought was a man, was really a woman. He'd be pretty unhappy too.

Just because someone is straight, aka (sorry to burst some peoples bubbles out there) a largemajority of people, doesn't mean that they're the only ones open to criticism.
This whole selective criticism is bullshit.
Regardless if it's in favor of a minority.

How do people off all type expect to be treated as equals, If we're constantly enforcing favor over one side or the other?
True equals are subject to the EXACT same view points, rules, criticisim, etc as everyone else.

GET OVER IT.

 

[CommanderZx2]

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945

...I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

capcha: roll over. indeed, capcha.

If Obsidian rolls over and makes the change, they're going to join the list of developer's whose games I will only contemplate buying on a $5 sale.

 

[skyn3t]

Now this is just funny. Seriously, I'm not going to let you have your cake and eat it too here. You think this poem is offensive but you're completely fine with someone saying a group of people should be put in concentration camps? That's just ridiculous.

I never said I thought the joke was offensive. :/

Jokes about genocide are fine, but poems? Poems are terrible. Right? Progressives everybody.

Oh really, two can play at this game. The same people offended by a joke about a fucking sock only days prior made rape and death threats/jokes.

Jokes about rape and death are fine, but socks? Sock are terrible. Right? Gamergate everybody.

The hell does Gamergate have to do with rape?
Do YOU even know what Gamergate is actually about? I'm not talking about the low brow trolls who have adopted a noble cause and deemed it something else, but the REAL Gamergate?
Or are you just as ignorant as those trolls themselves?