Okay.... Star Trek:TNG is racist and sexist....

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Vigormortis

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JazzJack2 said:
Jesus christ this is beyond satire, it just goes to show you that people really will find any reason to call something offensive.
Tell me about it. The level of confirmation bias and hyperbole in here is at cosmic levels.

It seems to me as if the OP is sniffing for a stink that just isn't there.

Regardless, I'm going take my leave of this discussion. Here on the Escapist, talk of TNG always devolves into something like this current thread or into one that's all about how much TNG "sucks" and DS9 was the only "good Trek".

Or into a discussion on how "superior" Star Wars is.

Whichever the case, it rarely goes well.
 

VoidWanderer

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So the earliest example is Season SEVEN...

And suddenly the show how has been racist and sexist all along?

What?

From that late eipsode, I can understand them doing the 'reverting to baser instincts' thing, but to my view, isn't that more of a dangers of alcohol thing? People who are drunk are unable to maintain their humanity, and that is where the more basic instincts of dominance and power come into play. People who are drunk more likely to admit to racist views if they have had them for a while, and especially a warrior race like Klingons, who by many examples have very very rough sex, so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch in terms of how the episode was done.

Am I saying the show is non-racist and non-sexist, not at all, but I think you are reading more into the obvious context of the episode, rather than remembering how the races are and how they would react to a lessening of their humanity.

Has Anita Sarkeesian done an episode about this yet?
 

wulf3n

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Not G. Ivingname said:
3. Troi already was already just a piece of eye candy, look at her uniform before season 6. Also, for both a therapist and an empath, she couldn't spot anything besides the extremely obvious.
You mean this uniform




Oh wait... that's not Troi, maybe this one



whoops, still not Troi


here it is.

 

Canadamus Prime

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I think you're reading waaaaaaaaaay too much into it. Truthfully you can find racism and/or sexism anywhere you want to if you look for it or you can just enjoy it for what it is. I choose the latter.
 

DudeistBelieve

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TheLiham said:
So if any of the white crew and Worf were swapped and they raped Troi, would it still be racist?
No it wouldn't be.

But the situation is made infinitely worse by white will riker being easily knocked out, but Worf being an unstoppable monster.

Vigormortis said:
JazzJack2 said:
Jesus christ this is beyond satire, it just goes to show you that people really will find any reason to call something offensive.
Tell me about it. The level of confirmation bias and hyperbole in here is at cosmic levels.

It seems to me as if the OP is sniffing for a stink that just isn't there.

Regardless, I'm going take my leave of this discussion. Here on the Escapist, talk of TNG always devolves into something like this current thread or into one that's all about how much TNG "sucks" and DS9 was the only "good Trek".

Or into a discussion on how "superior" Star Wars is.

Whichever the case, it rarely goes well.
the OP's name is SaneAmongInsane,

And I already stated numerous times this is SUBTEXT.
 

DudeistBelieve

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Smilomaniac said:
There's a very far step from "Star Trek: TNG is racist and sexist." to "I find parts of this specific episode made in poor taste."

First off: I don't agree with OP. Maybe I myself am too bigoted to see it, but there's no apparent racism in that episode, at least of what I remember. At worst, the only racism I could fathom would be towards a fictional race. If it's because Michael Dorn is black, then you're seriously leaping to conclusions, considering he's playing a character who's race is aggressive by nature. One, by the way, who is by far one of the most sympathetic characters in the series, precisely because he's not one of the "evolved" selfrighteous humans; If anything, there'd be prejudice towards white people who seem to be very pretentious.

I can choose to notice the subtext and feel clever for being more socially aware than a 25 year old show, or I can take it as intended.

Second: When you're dealing with an old show, you have to remember that things were different when they made the show. I'd like to say we've progressed, but seeing the reactions in this thread and in general when it comes to sexism, racism and so on, it's very clear that we've gone from people who base their judgements on experience, to people who have an idea of what's right, but little experience to back it up and therefore act like total douchebags while calling anyone a racist, sexist or other derogatory term while having no experience with actual prejudice. Hence the amazingly selfrighteous and clueless wave of feminists(and their white knights) these days.

Sexism is prevalent through TNG and still is today in some form or another. Including sexism as a theme, does not make a show sexist. Playing on token female characters does, but there is a degree of sexism in play; While it might be mildly inappropriate it's not sending a message that women are worth less than men, unfit for command, incapable or other detrimental suggestions.

As for your subquestion, whether an animal can rape another animal:
Animals don't date out of respect for the other gender and their equal rights, but mate because of strength and other practical qualities, so there's no subtle rape like taking advantage of a drunk girl. I'm sure some animals don't consent and either try to fight it off or run away, which would indicate that it exists. In context, I think the question is pointless, since they're animals at the time and aren't burdened with the emotional ramifications or social pressure that sentient beings are.

Basically I understand that it offends you that Troi is raped, however there's no evidence of that action. I was wondering what the hell you were talking about, until I went and read the synopsis and confirmed that there was no rape, just a primal desire by Worf to get it on with Troi, but never getting to it.

Troi was raped in a different episode. It happened through telepathy and raised some interesting questions, considering that there was no physical act.

All in all, Troi is a pretty bad character, maybe because the actor couldn't live up to presenting herself as more than a bystanding commentator or the scriptwriters had no idea what to do with her. I personally think she just did a bad job overall and should've been kicked after the first season.
No, when Picard and Data find Troi they note she's already been injured by a bite, and only put to and to together when Worf comes back for sloppy seconds.

Off screen implied rape, and see at this point I'm reading too much into it but c'mon. So what? Did Primal Worf just leave a savage klingon hickey for a first date then leave? Nonsense.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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SaneAmongInsane said:
I'm sorry, and someone probably can prove me wrong, but I'm sitting here watching "Genesis" from Season 7
And that's your problem right there. You watched Genesis, an episode so bad, I can hardly believe it came from Season 7 because it's the kinda crap they usually avoided after season 2.

It's just a terrible episode. No thought went into it at all. It is just, simply, bad. And, yes, sexist and racist, albeit mostly by accident in the sea of bad choices.

Now, if you want to talk about sexism and racism throughout the REST of TNG... yeah, we could do that too. Troi is pretty much a walking ball of sexism. She's the face for a number of sexist tropes because she embodies so many of them.

As for the Racism... well, the joke that Genesis makes extra awful is the fact that the Klingons have been "de-evolving" since Worf joined the cast. In an attempt to make Worf seem "caught between two worlds" they Flanderized the Klingons into parodies of themselves. The trend was started by the awful writers during seasons 1 and 2, but unlike some of the other things that got corrected, that trend only got worse as the series went on (and beyond into DS9 and Voyager).
 

Ihateregistering1

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It's things like this that make me realize how frequently justified people are when they talk about "out of control political correctness".

For starters, all the people referring to Worf as a "black man" are just flat wrong. Worf is a character, and he's an Alien, he's not a "man" at all. The fact that he's played by a black actor is meaningless. It would be like referring to Neytiri from Avatar as a "black woman". No, Zoe Saldana is a black actress, but Neytiri is a giant blue female alien. Not human, and not black.

2nd, and I don't really watch much Star Trek, but isn't the whole point of the Klingons that they are a hyper aggressive and violent race who solve all disputes through force? By that logic, doesn't that mean Worf's presence is out and out racism in literally every episode that he's in? After all, they have the "black man" being the violent and aggressive one! RACIST!
 

Vigormortis

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SaneAmongInsane said:
the OP's name is SaneAmongInsane,

And I already stated numerous times this is SUBTEXT.
I'm aware of that. However, the more vague the subtext the easier it is to read into it whatever the hell you want.

One could even argue that you're being racist for simply implying that Michael Dorn's portrayal of Worf's violent actions is racially motivated because he's a black actor.[footnote]I'd call that person an idiot for saying so, but you get my point; I hope.[/footnote] Implying he can't portray a violent character without it being assumed to be a racial stereotype.

The point I was trying to make was that I feel as though you were overextending a bit in looking for racial or sexist subtexts where none really existed. And, given you said, "well I just sat through several semesters about black people in literature... Even did my thesis on this subject...", I feel as though a bit of confirmation bias may be going on. Especially when we start looking at it as "unintentional subtext". Then we can read just about anything we want into it.

Subtext is a tricky and, at times, dangerous thing. It can be used for good or ill, by both the content creators and those partaking.

This is why caution must be taken when analyzing a piece of media. It's very easy to unintentionally allow one's own biases to cloud an analysis. I know this from experience.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Just wanted to add that many of the scripts used for TNG were actually written with racial neutrality in mind. A characters, nor even the actors, race was never a consideration. A characters motivations and personality were based around their species and whatever was need for the current script.

Also: Troi wasn't raped in that episode. There's no indication at all that she was.

Attacked, yes. Raped, no.
 

Thaluikhain

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Kenbo Slice said:
Worf isn't black though, he's a Klingon. Klingon's have been played by white people too, so it's not like specifically they pick black people to play them.
So? The particular person they chose to do things black people are accused of was a black person.

Smilomaniac said:
There's a very far step from "Star Trek: TNG is racist and sexist." to "I find parts of this specific episode made in poor taste."
This.

It was a bad move on someone's part, but it's one (not terribly big) bad move.

Boris Goodenough said:
Are we fogetting that Star Trek (the original series granted) is the first US show to show a black girl kissing a white man? The first show to show a black woman with leadership?
So? Does that mean they can never slip up and do something dodgy later on, or do they get a free pass or something?

As an aside, you'll note that Kirk has kissed women from all over the galaxy, but needed mind control to kiss a black woman.
 

cthulhuspawn82

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In order for writers to keep racism/sexism out of their show, they have to recognize that it is there. This is impossible to do because only a select few people have the unique ability to see racism/sexism. A thousand rational men can scrutinize a piece of media and find no racism/sexism whatsoever, but one of these unique individuals will always find it there. Perhaps every movie, game, and TV show needs to hire one of these unique people who have this power to see racism/sexism that nobody else can.
 

Boris Goodenough

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thaluikhain said:
So? Does that mean they can never slip up and do something dodgy later on, or do they get a free pass or something?

As an aside, you'll note that Kirk has kissed women from all over the galaxy, but needed mind control to kiss a black woman.
The reason I used those examples is to illustrate that they were inherently trying to be racist in the past.

So a violent race had violent roots and apparently a rape based reproduction like mallards, THAT specific actor happened to be black (while the other Klingons were white under the makeup under TNG), so it HAS to be racism against blacks, that's what I have a problem with that you say it's racism just because it can be seen that way... I'd like some proof of it before I start seeing it that way.

They needed an excuse back then to make it not too controversial, so they used mind control. You must know pushing the envelop on social issues happened slowly and under the guise of other things back then.
 

Not G. Ivingname

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SaneAmongInsane said:
1. It was one episode. One really, REALLY stupid episode. "Yes, we are devolving into creatures we only share a common ancestor for that lived HUNDREDS of MILLIONS years ago." Do not take this episode to judge the whole series.

2. All the talk of honor, the Klingon's are more about just plain VIOLENCE. We see this time and again. To quote DS9, "Nothing is more honorable than victory". So evolving from an animalistic Brute isn't that much of a stretch. Two also had some established chemistry before the episode, so it seems more of "how Worf feels without self control." Maybe, again, the writing in this episode was beyond brain dead.

3. Troi already was already just a piece of eye candy, look at her uniform before season 6. Also, for both a therapist and an empath, she couldn't spot anything besides the extremely obvious.

"SURRENDER YOUR SHIP AND PREPARED TO BE PILLAGED!
"I sense great anger from their captain..."

4. You want to see a REALLY racist episode? Look up "Code of Honor." The leader of a species of black people (who all dressed in cougar skin pants) suddenly falls madly in love with Natasha Yar ("Where da white women at?") and tries to claim her. At one FanExpo ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4w0Zj_EdT4 ), Riker's actor called the episode a "Racist piece of shit."
Yes I'm familiar with the code of honor episode, but I bring it up because I keep seeing the subtext over and over. Mind you I've stopped watch season by season, I'm just watching whatever BBC America airs.

I've seen an a intoxicated Tasha get raped by Data (Debatable, since Data can be a little niave), and she's also suppose to be this kick-butt female yet I've only ever see her get kidnapped or her ass handed to her (and I some point she dies, I haven't seen it)

and yeah it makes since that Worf acts that way in the context of the show's lore... It still doesn't change the fact it has a racial subtext... and that subtext makes me feel uncomfortable (jesus, I've become so liberal haven't I?)

I'm not writing off the whole series, I quite enjoy watching but man oh man... You know the sexism and what not routed in geek culture, and here I am seeing perpetrated in Star Trek of all things. Just wanted to make sure I'm not the only one seeing this shit.
I will admit, I can't choose what does or does not make you uncomfortable. All I can say is, I don't see a problem since Worf isn't human and this was a terrible episode anyway.

As for the Yasha incident, let me remind you that both of them were infected with the "virus of drunkenness," (I have no idea how Data was infected, but that is an entirely different issue) and she was entirely willing in that state (if anything, I think she went to him). So both of them either have equal blame if they were drunk, or in this case, blameless since it was a virus that they had no control over.
 

Thaluikhain

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Boris Goodenough said:
So a violent race had violent roots and apparently a rape based reproduction like mallards, THAT specific actor happened to be black (while the other Klingons were white under the makeup under TNG), so it HAS to be racism against blacks, that's what I have a problem with that you say it's racism just because it can be seen that way... I'd like some proof of it before I start seeing it that way.
Again, in the context of a disproportionate amount of depictions of black men doing that, based on a stereotype of black men as violent predators attacking white women, it's a problem.
 

Not G. Ivingname

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wulf3n said:
Not G. Ivingname said:
3. Troi already was already just a piece of eye candy, look at her uniform before season 6. Also, for both a therapist and an empath, she couldn't spot anything besides the extremely obvious.
You mean this uniform




Oh wait... that's not Troi, maybe this one



whoops, still not Troi


here it is.
I forgot about those. X_X



The boob window makes my patients 34% more likely to not stab someone as soon as were done counseling.
 

thiosk

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Heronblade said:
The episode was one of the worst of its series to air, particularly if you only compare it to post season one episodes. It also definitely over emphasized the fiction part of science fiction, completely violating a ton of biology rules.
Worse than every episode with Troi's mother?

I don't recall seeing this particular episode, but I can't imagine it being worse than that.

But sexist and racist because of one episodes missteps? puhleeze.
There are few shows more progressive than TNG.
 

Boris Goodenough

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thaluikhain said:
Again, in the context of a disproportionate amount of depictions of black men doing that, based on a stereotype of black men as violent predators attacking white women, it's a problem.
Only because you want to see it that way. The show does not imply it.

Also in regards to the evolution in Genesis, it clashes a bit "The Chase" were all humanoids were seeded by the first humanoid species, unless what we see is that DNA being reworked first.
 

Thaluikhain

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blackrave said:
But showing black character doing horrible things is somehow unacceptable
Excepting, of course, nobody actually said that.

A black character doing horrible things black people are disproportionately portrayed as doing, which is something they are stereotyped as doing IRL is not the same thing.

Now, if he being a Nazi and gassing people, say, his race wouldn't be an issue, because the Nazis weren't black.

Boris Goodenough said:
Only because you want to see it that way. The show does not imply it.
The show doesn't have to. The show didn't make Dorn a black man, nor did it create a culture where black men are stereotyped as rapists.