Okay.... Star Trek:TNG is racist and sexist....

[Something Amyss]

Now look, yeah Worf is a klingon but for fucks sakes, I'd be a moron to not see the racial subtext there either intentionally or unintentionally. (Though a thought occurs, since everyone on the enterprise was basically an animal with no sentience... can an animal rape another animal?)

It probably doesn't hurt that even in TOS, alien races seemed heavily based on terrestrial stereotypes. Sure, they let an Asian and a black lady on the bridge, but they were still battling racial stereotypes in spaaaaace.

...Come to think of it, the Ferengi remind me of another stereotype involving a greed-obsessed "race" with an exaggerated sensory organ.

And Star Trek seems to have many episodes with an unhealthy attitude towards sex. Maybe not all...Rapey, but still.

 

[lapan]

I'm sorry, and someone probably can prove me wrong, but I'm sitting here watching "Genesis" from Season 7

all of the crew have basically de-evolved back to their primal states.... and of course that means it's made Worf into an animalistic brute intent on raping Troi.

Now look, yeah Worf is a klingon but for fucks sakes, I'd be a moron to not see the racial subtext there either intentionally or unintentionally. (Though a thought occurs, since everyone on the enterprise was basically an animal with no sentience... can an animal rape another animal?)

Worst of all? At the end of the episode where things magically go back to normal... What's Troi's response? After all its made pretty clear she was already raped presumably once by Worf... Apathy and joke that she should clear her calender for a while. Credits.

I'm sorry what?!?! Okay fine, maybe she doesn't remember being raped by worf, but clearly Crusher/Picard/Data must've told her what the fuck happened to her and she doesn't feel the least bit violated?

And here i thought you meant the godawful first 2 seasons and their "Code of Honor" episode. You could have made a much better point if you used that one as example.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

No it isn't, not even slightly, you'd be much happier if you stopped going through life trying to underline how wonderfully open minded you are by randomly declaring things "racist" or "sexist".

If I didn't then my English degree would be a waste.

Now look, yeah Worf is a klingon but for fucks sakes, I'd be a moron to not see the racial subtext there either intentionally or unintentionally. (Though a thought occurs, since everyone on the enterprise was basically an animal with no sentience... can an animal rape another animal?)

It probably doesn't hurt that even in TOS, alien races seemed heavily based on terrestrial stereotypes. Sure, they let an Asian and a black lady on the bridge, but they were still battling racial stereotypes in spaaaaace.

...Come to think of it, the Ferengi remind me of another stereotype involving a greed-obsessed "race" with an exaggerated sensory organ.

And Star Trek seems to have many episodes with an unhealthy attitude towards sex. Maybe not all...Rapey, but still.

...Thank God someone else said it.

And the fucked up thing is the Ferengi are ALWAYS acting little slimey motherfuckers. Even if I'm ignoring the racial subtext, the fact than an entire race on a show is portrayed so negatively.... I mean do any Ferengi do anything remotely heroic or good?

1. It was one episode. One really, REALLY stupid episode. "Yes, we are devolving into creatures we only share a common ancestor for that lived HUNDREDS of MILLIONS years ago." Do not take this episode to judge the whole series.

2. All the talk of honor, the Klingon's are more about just plain VIOLENCE. We see this time and again. To quote DS9, "Nothing is more honorable than victory". So evolving from an animalistic Brute isn't that much of a stretch. Two also had some established chemistry before the episode, so it seems more of "how Worf feels without self control." Maybe, again, the writing in this episode was beyond brain dead.

3. Troi already was already just a piece of eye candy, look at her uniform before season 6. Also, for both a therapist and an empath, she couldn't spot anything besides the extremely obvious.

"SURRENDER YOUR SHIP AND PREPARED TO BE PILLAGED!
"I sense great anger from their captain..."

4. You want to see a REALLY racist episode? Look up "Code of Honor." The leader of a species of black people (who all dressed in cougar skin pants) suddenly falls madly in love with Natasha Yar ("Where da white women at?") and tries to claim her. At one FanExpo ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4w0Zj_EdT4 ), Riker's actor called the episode a "Racist piece of shit."

Yes I'm familiar with the code of honor episode, but I bring it up because I keep seeing the subtext over and over. Mind you I've stopped watch season by season, I'm just watching whatever BBC America airs.

I've seen an a intoxicated Tasha get raped by Data (Debatable, since Data can be a little niave), and she's also suppose to be this kick-butt female yet I've only ever see her get kidnapped or her ass handed to her (and I some point she dies, I haven't seen it)

and yeah it makes since that Worf acts that way in the context of the show's lore... It still doesn't change the fact it has a racial subtext... and that subtext makes me feel uncomfortable (jesus, I've become so liberal haven't I?)

I'm not writing off the whole series, I quite enjoy watching but man oh man... You know the sexism and what not routed in geek culture, and here I am seeing perpetrated in Star Trek of all things. Just wanted to make sure I'm not the only one seeing this shit.

I will admit, I can't choose what does or does not make you uncomfortable. All I can say is, I don't see a problem since Worf isn't human and this was a terrible episode anyway.

As for the Yasha incident, let me remind you that both of them were infected with the "virus of drunkenness," (I have no idea how Data was infected, but that is an entirely different issue) and she was entirely willing in that state (if anything, I think she went to him). So both of them either have equal blame if they were drunk, or in this case, blameless since it was a virus that they had no control over.

Yar was infected with Drunkenness. Data was not, he became infected presumably during coitus.

But... I mean, I gotta give Data a pass. He can be a naïve ************. And at least Tasha was annoyed afterwards she had sex with him while infected.

In order for writers to keep racism/sexism out of their show, they have to recognize that it is there. This is impossible to do because only a select few people have the unique ability to see racism/sexism. A thousand rational men can scrutinize a piece of media and find no racism/sexism whatsoever, but one of these unique individuals will always find it there. Perhaps every movie, game, and TV show needs to hire one of these unique people who have this power to see racism/sexism that nobody else can.

Posted a link in page 1 listing the sterotypes for black people. In truth, I think its extremely difficult to not write a character that doesn't fall into one of the sterotypes but that's only because we've pretty muched sterotyped every behavior a black man can have.

And hell, the problem isn't accidentally using them or even enjoying them. The problem is not being aware how it has a fucked up subtext. Sometimes shit is obvious, like the depiction of the Persian's in 300. A lot of time it isn't though, and the majority of people don't see it for some reason.

I'm sorry, and someone probably can prove me wrong, but I'm sitting here watching "Genesis" from Season 7

all of the crew have basically de-evolved back to their primal states.... and of course that means it's made Worf into an animalistic brute intent on raping Troi.

Now look, yeah Worf is a klingon but for fucks sakes, I'd be a moron to not see the racial subtext there either intentionally or unintentionally. (Though a thought occurs, since everyone on the enterprise was basically an animal with no sentience... can an animal rape another animal?)

Worst of all? At the end of the episode where things magically go back to normal... What's Troi's response? After all its made pretty clear she was already raped presumably once by Worf... Apathy and joke that she should clear her calender for a while. Credits.

I'm sorry what?!?! Okay fine, maybe she doesn't remember being raped by worf, but clearly Crusher/Picard/Data must've told her what the fuck happened to her and she doesn't feel the least bit violated?

And here i thought you meant the godawful first 2 seasons and their "Code of Honor" episode. You could have made a much better point if you used that one as example.

Oddly enough, my first viewing of that ep felt way more sexist to me then racist.

Tasha flat out admits to wanting to fuck the villain.

 

[theNater]

Off screen implied rape, and see at this point I'm reading too much into it but c'mon. So what? Did Primal Worf just leave a savage klingon hickey for a first date then leave? Nonsense.

On the flipside, if he did come back, why is the old hickey Troi's only injury? Wouldn't there be a fresher hickey? Heck, given the damage he did to the med bay doors, wouldn't broken bones be expected?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Even if I'm ignoring the racial subtext, the fact than an entire race on a show is portrayed so negatively.... I mean do any Ferengi do anything remotely heroic or good?

Quark lectures Sisko about tolerating other cultures once.

Yeah...

 

[theNater]

And the fucked up thing is the Ferengi are ALWAYS acting little slimey motherfuckers. Even if I'm ignoring the racial subtext, the fact than an entire race on a show is portrayed so negatively.... I mean do any Ferengi do anything remotely heroic or good?

I seem to remember a Ferengi scientist in one episode. As I recall, while he's not particularly heroic, he is trying to advance knowledge for the sake of knowledge, which I find admirable.

 

[lapan]

...Thank God someone else said it.

And the fucked up thing is the Ferengi are ALWAYS acting little slimey motherfuckers. Even if I'm ignoring the racial subtext, the fact than an entire race on a show is portrayed so negatively.... I mean do any Ferengi do anything remotely heroic or good?

Quark and his family do on several occasions. Especially his brother isn't all that different from a human and saves Deep space 9 on several occasions. His nephew also has a decent arc from a stereotypical Ferengi to a good character and first Ferengi in Starflet. Quark tends to put profit first, but when shit happens, he actually helps the Federation and Bajorans. Quarks mother helps reform Ferengi society and helps with the first steps towards womens rights.

Unless you are only counting TNG ferengi. Then yes, back in TNG they were really onedimensional

 

[RicoADF]

this I did not knoW, as I'm still a Trek newb.

Are they all portrayed as having a dark complexion however? ohhh because even that is.... Blackfacey....

I suspect that's part of the issue, you don't know the star trek lore etc much yet so the context isn't there. Also some misinformation too.

For example: We have a race of dark skinned aliens who are violent and brutish. Now we have several choices regarding the casting for these parts.

This is actually incorrect, Klingons aren't just dark skinned, they vary just like humans do, heck Christopher Lloyd from back to the future played as Kruge and he's about as white as you can get. They come in different shapes, sizes and colours:

Spoiler

Gowron

Kruge

Ambassador from Star Trek VI

Race aside, I'd also like to point out that Troi was bitten by Worf however they didn't clarify if it was just the begining of the ritual or if they went through with it, and honest I didn't get the impression they did. Klingon mating rituals are supposed to be quite violent, if they had then Troi would have had more than a bite mark to show for it.

On that topic, Klingons are an extremely violent species, they was established well before Dorn played the role, and has nothing to do with race. If all you've seen is some of TNG then that'd explain why this seems strange, Worf is actually extremely civil by Klingon standards, they normally say hi by headbutting each other and they don't hold back, they will kill one another at the drop of a hat and even if you get on one's good side you can still be in a world of hurt (see the mating rituals mentioned above). I'd also mention that Troi and Worf had a relationship during TNG so since they already had feelings it's no surprise he went for her once his animal instincts took over.

For Worf to devolve he would have gone back to their even more violent predecessor, which they very clearly show in the episode with the fact he kills some of the crew. To not show him in this way would have been inconsistent, and I'd say rather racist to suggest that Dorn couldn't play the role properly due to what colour his skin is.

 

[Kenbo Slice]

Worf isn't black though, he's a Klingon. Klingon's have been played by white people too, so it's not like specifically they pick black people to play them.

So? The particular person they chose to do things black people are accused of was a black person.

Michael Dorn's race has NOTHING to do with it. If Worf was played by a white guy this wouldn't be a racist issue at all. If anything, you're racist for finding this racist. It's not racist, at all. The character is a Klingon, KLINGON. Not black, Klingon.

 

[Thaluikhain]

If Worf was played by a white guy this wouldn't be a racist issue at all.

Yes. That's the whole point.

 

[Stu35]

Star Trek:TNG is racist and sexist....

Sigh... Here we go...

all of the crew have basically de-evolved back to their primal states.... and of course that means it's made Worf into an animalistic brute intent on raping Troi.

Now look, yeah Worf is a klingon but for fucks sakes, I'd be a moron to not see the racial subtext there either

Of course... Black actor playing an Alien = Racial subtext where Alien=Black people. You're so fucking deep.

intentionally or unintentionally.

The unintentional bit is of importance. See, you deciding to see Racism where none was present is YOUR problem. So the usual "OMG RACISM!" panic button with it's "It might be UNINTENTIONAL, but IT'S STILL THERE SO I'M OFFENDED!" does not fly with me.

Worst of all? At the end of the episode where things magically go back to normal... What's Troi's response? After all its made pretty clear she was already raped presumably once by Worf... Apathy and joke that she should clear her calender for a while. Credits.

I'm sorry what?!?! Okay fine, maybe she doesn't remember being raped by worf, but clearly Crusher/Picard/Data must've told her what the fuck happened to her and she doesn't feel the least bit violated?

They're Space adventurers on a Space adventure. They face the perils of trying to keep themselves alive in the vast emptiness of space on a daily basis.

Not really a job for the sort of lass that's going to sit and cry over some shit that was out of everyones control. There comes a point where you've just got to brush it off and crack the fuck on.

For example, I don't really watch Star Trek, but am I to understand that they lose a "redshirt" almost every week? That's going to create a crew that are somewhat hardened against emotional trauma.

Final point: I've never watched any Star Trek, so you may well be right, I honestly don't care, I just can't stay away from anybody claiming racism or sexism in a thread, like a moth to a flame.

Are we fogetting that Star Trek (the original series granted) is the first US show to show a black girl kissing a white man? The first show to show a black woman with leadership?

I didn't know that.

Seems that the original posters pretext grows ever more flimsy.

Sometimes shit is obvious, like the depiction of the Persian's in 300. A lot of time it isn't though, and the majority of people don't see it for some reason.

Oh, you're one of those...


You're aware that '300' was the Story of a Greek soldier telling OTHER Greek warriors about his experiences at Thermopalae? That the demonising of Persians was not only crucial to him telling his mates a good story, but given that he was telling the story circa 500 BC, was a member of a Spartan state who's very existence was based on the exclusion of anyone who wasn't of their 'master race', and who very probably due to the 'fog of war' probably DID see the Persians as being the deformed monsters he portrayed them all come together to suggest that there's no fucking place for 'Equality and Diversity' in the film '300'.

You want a historically correct version of the Battle of Thermopalae in which the Persians are not shown as demons, Elephants are not shown as exaggeratedly large monsters and Xerxes II is not shown as an Androgynous bi-sexual Brazillian? Go watch a documentary. There are many on the subject.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

Riker turned into a raging brute also, just so you know. He is white. Also recall that Klingons are more prone to violence than humans and Worf is you know, a Klingon. So a devolved Klingon may be even worse.
That said though, that episode was absolutely terrible. It isn't even worth a second thought. It certainly isn't the episode to judge the series on.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Also in an early TNG Tasha Yar was...inebriated somehow, banged Data and it was never brought up again.

You know, as crazy as this was, I really think they could have done something pretty good with that. And it did get brought up again, at Data's trial to determine if he was sapient or not.

 

[ForumSafari]

I'm sorry, and someone probably can prove me wrong, but I'm sitting here watching "Genesis" from Season 7

OK the first thing to bear in mind is that Genesis is a bad episode.

all of the crew have basically de-evolved back to their primal states.... and of course that means it's made Worf into an animalistic brute intent on raping Troi.

Now look, yeah Worf is a klingon but for fucks sakes, I'd be a moron to not see the racial subtext there either intentionally or unintentionally.

You mean because he's brown I take it and you're looking at this from the animalistic black man perspective. You can read it that way, or you can note that Worf is a klingon, a member of a legitimately violent warrior race and that whatever he's de-evolving into will in some way be adapted to survive on Qonos, which probably makes it big and mean. There are klingons with non black skin as well, Gowron immediately springs to mind, plus La Forge doesn't go around like a brute either iirc.

Worst of all? At the end of the episode where things magically go back to normal... What's Troi's response? After all its made pretty clear she was already raped presumably once by Worf... Apathy and joke that she should clear her calender for a while. Credits.

I'm sorry what?!?! Okay fine, maybe she doesn't remember being raped by worf, but clearly Crusher/Picard/Data must've told her what the fuck happened to her and she doesn't feel the least bit violated?

Not everyone takes to drunken sex they wouldn't have done sober the same way and these people were de-evolved, she indeed may not care. That and for a while Troi and Worf are actually in a relationship in season 7 I believe. That and she's empathic, which will completely change how she views others. Finally I'm not even really comfortable calling it rape if I'm honest, you're really really stretching the definition of rape.

(Though a thought occurs, since everyone on the enterprise was basically an animal with no sentience... can an animal rape another animal?)

Basically that, neither was in a brain where consent was even an option, it wasn't rape.

 

[hermes]

Just out of curiosity, what did La Forge turned into? Because that would be an example of an actual black human in Star Trek. Or, for what it mattered, what about Guinan?

You are making a claim of racism about someone that isn't even human, but a man in a costume playing an alien race. An alien race that is not even the only allied race with darker skin color (remember the Vulcan). And Klingon has a tendency to violence anyway, so of course his equivalent to a neanderthal would be a violent creature. Yet your first thought was "he is a black man, and they had it on him". That is both hyperbolic and simplistic.

 

[Gorrath]

If Worf was played by a white guy this wouldn't be a racist issue at all.

Yes. That's the whole point.

Except that's not the whole point. You may not have the same subtext regarding the actor himself, but you may very well still have accusations of blackface. Or accusations that the race of the actor doesn't matter, it's the appearance of the Klingon's that matter for the subtext. NO matter which way you slice it, someone can come up with a reason why there's a racial issue at hand because of how different people view racial politics. The idea that simply swapping out Dorn for a white actor would have prevented a problem I think ignores the other accusations that could be made if the situation were different.

 

[Thaluikhain]

NO matter which way you slice it, someone can come up with a reason why there's a racial issue at hand because of how different people view racial politics. The idea that simply swapping out Dorn for a white actor would have prevented a problem I think ignores the other accusations that could be made if the situation were different.

Er, sure, if you got a white person in blackface, that's also not good. That isn't the only other option.

You could have a white person not in blackface. You could have a black person not raping a white woman.

 

[moggett88]

I have no love for the Star Trek franchise, never been a fan, but as an outsider I will say this;

You say that because the Klingon guy was a beast and raped someone, it's racist against black people. If the white guy you said turned into a caveman did it instead, would that be racist against white people? 'Cause it sounds like you would have been fine with that.

TLDR: I find you guilty of reverse racism.