On Dongles

[kailus13]

To every privileged straight male defending the strippers:

....imagine you're a videogame developer at a videogame convention. Suddenly, a bunch of male strippers wearing only a tanga hop on the table and put their asses in front of your face, just like the girl is doing in this comic.

Now you can understand why there was a righteous outrage at this.

What strippers? I see no strippers involved. I see dancers are mentioned, but unless they are taking there clothes off for money, then no strippers were involved. An if this is the case, this would appear to be another case of knee jerk, hyperbolic gender-begging... The classic "oh who will think of the women" situation.

If you have to make stuff up to be angry about, its a pretty good sign that you don't really have anything to be angry about.

I think a better analogy would be Chippendale dancers wearing nothing but a thong for no reason. Many people would be put off by that. No strippers involved in any case.

 

[Olas]

To every privileged straight male defending the strippers:

....imagine you're a videogame developer at a videogame convention. Suddenly, a bunch of male strippers wearing only a tanga hop on the table and put their asses in front of your face, just like the girl is doing in this comic.

Now you can understand why there was a righteous outrage at this.

What strippers? I see no strippers involved. I see dancers are mentioned, but unless they are taking there clothes off for money, then no strippers were involved. An if this is the case, this would appear to be another case of knee jerk, hyperbolic gender-begging... The classic "oh who will think of the women" situation.

If you have to make stuff up to be angry about, its a pretty good sign that you don't really have anything to be angry about.

So his point is invalid because he referred to them as strippers instead of dancers? As if that makes even the tiniest difference at all and isn't a way to completely sidestep his argument.

And how dare he actually try and consider a woman's point of view on something, AMIRITE?

 

[Requia]

So his point is invalid because he referred to them as strippers instead of dancers?

Yes, by definition. If i run around screaming "aliens are invading" & you point out that those are clouds & not aliens, is my point that aliens are invading now not valid on the basis of a lack of invading aliens? OF COURSE IT IS!

Because a nonsensical hyperbolic statement is wrong no matter who says it, be they male or female.

Its more that 'The aliens aren't invading in flying saucers, they're invading in tripods' isn't really relevant, the aliens are still invading. Whether or not the entertainers were strippers isn't terribly relevant, unless you also want to contend that there were no pole dancers or barely clothed women.

 

[scienceguy8]

Does that change the fact that there are different standards for male and female behavior, especially in the workplace?

Does that "fact" have any bearing on the Issue of hiring female strippers to a Video Game event?

What's the problem here? People are there to talk about games and enjoy themselves and considering around 90-95% of the crowd are men [http://www.flickr.com/photos/officialgdc/collections/72157633058882769/], it fits perfectly.

Because it's a video game developers conference, what does party music and strippers have to do with that?

If the audience wanted to go to a strip club/night club, fine, go to a club, but keep the video game developers conference as a conference of video game developers conferring about video game development.

edit: And now you've raised a chicken or the egg style dilemma. Is it ok to have strippers because there aren't many female developers, or are the few female developers because of this type of attitude.

I wasn't there so if they were genuinely STRIPPERS stripping their clothes off down to thongs/breasts then we have a problem because would be completely inappropriate.

However if they were nothing more than dancing girls in sexy clothing then that is more than fine, they're just there to dance and put on a show. The word "stripper" seems to be getting tossed around rather lazily in this thread, it makes me think people know what an actual stripper is and what an actual stripper does :S

edit: Yup, digging up more info on this incident, here we go: http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2013/03/27/really-igda-party-at-gdc-brings-on-the-female-dancers/
Strippers my ass, just TWO dancers. However it seems that enough people complained about that so the IGDA won't be doing it again. I can see that it was inappropriate, this wasn't just some typical gaming convention/party. Fair enough.

The fact that it made the female co-chair of IGDA's Women In Games Group step down [http://au.businessinsider.com/igdas-after-party-with-women-dancers-2013-3] is HILARIOUS though, so that's all it takes to make a feminist run away? Talk about over-emotional

Let's take a look at another industry with similar gender makeup. Most engineering disciplines are heavily male dominated, just like the video game industry. Last time I went to an Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) sectional, not once did I see any female performers, entertainers, strippers, or hired eye-candy. If you are having a professional get-together, why do you need female performers? It doesn't matter if all their clothes stay on. The simple fact you hired women for an event just because they are women is crass.

 

[MrFinnishDude]

This is comedy gold for me.
It just is.

 

[SidheKnight]

I'll post my opinion on the Donglegate and the Pole Dancer conference incidents:

Donglegate:

The woman is 100% at fault here (can't remember her name). A guy tells his friend a programming joke privately during a programming convention (The joke involves "dongles" and "forking", both programming terms in this case). A woman overhears them and feels "offended"[footnote]Seriously, people get offended for the most ridiculous sh!t these days[/footnote] by what is essentially a "dick joke". What does she do? Tell the speakers or the organizers of the conference about this, according to her, inapropiate behaviour? Hell no! She takes a picture of them a posts it on twitter humiliating them, causing one of them to get fired.[footnote]Fortunately the case got to 4chan and they did justice by posting screenshots and links of her own dick jokes from her twitter account, which got her fired. Too bad it didn't give back the other guy his job.[/footnote]

Pole Dancers:

It was inapropiate, for the following reasons:

1) It was a supposedly professional conference, and this kind of things makes them seem less serious.
2) There were both men and women present, therefore catering to only one gender's preferences[footnote]I'm not counting gays and lesbians to keep it simple, because my point stands anyway[/footnote] is discrimination.
3) So they had to either have both male and female dancers, or have none. Otherwise, it's sexism.

 

[Souplex]

Is it me or did the stripper kind of look like Erin's boss?

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

You know, as an American I might get called a prude for this, but there's a time and a place for stuff like this. This wasn't one of them.

Having dated a German, they really like to talk it up about how sexually expressive and free Europe and the like is. I'd say it is true, but not nearly to the extent they seem to have in their heads. I'd like someone to tell me how "Turn me on, Dammit! (origina: Få meg på, for faen)" is so much more free in its sex than something like American Pie. Arguably American Pie treats it's sexuality with "humor" (not that I found it that funny), but at least it was a better movie in my opinion.

In fact, visiting Germany I was expecting whores to be pouring out of brothels and naked men and women to be banging on giant posters in the streets, but none of this was the case. In fact, I'd say most people were dressed more conservatively than the average high school student at amall here. Which is good, as they seemed to actually have a sense of style

You have to visit Munich. Here we have old men riding naked on a three seater bicycle in the park.

OT: This is either about the inudstry meeting with the "strippers" or is about the chauvinism in the industry as a whole. I doubt it was abotu the "Dongle" incident but I can see why they chose it.

As for that little incident I think that women was way out of line with reporting it. She got a guy fired because he was telling a in no way misogynist but sexually charge joke to his friend and coworker beside him.

 

[Olas]

So his point is invalid because he referred to them as strippers instead of dancers?

Yes, by definition. If i run around screaming "aliens are invading" & you point out that those are clouds & not aliens, is my point that aliens are invading now not valid on the basis of a lack of invading aliens? OF COURSE IT IS!

You know full well that when he said strippers he meant exotic dancers, don't play dumb, the difference is a few pieces of string anyway. You're hiding behind a minor word technicality that has no bearing whatsoever on his actual argument, but if it's really so important to you.

To every straight male defending the strippers:

Imagine you're a developer at a videogame convention. Suddenly, a bunch of exotic male dancers wearing only a tanga hop on your table and put their asses in front of your face, just like the girl is doing in this comic.

Now you can understand why there was a righteous outrage at this.

Why should a company not hire dancers to dance at a party? Should musical directors no longer hire dancers? What about theatre troops, should they not have dancers either... After all dancer is apparently a synonym for stripper... Hence a ballerina is now the same thing as a stripper.

Well according to you the difference between dancers and strippers is as big as the difference between alien spacecrafts and clouds, so I'd call this argument dead on arrival. But just so you're aware: there's more than one type of dancer in the entire world.

 

[Woodsey]

I would be incensed by the presence of strippers of any gender "hired" to perform at a Video Game event.

... Are you suggesting these ladies were kidnapped and then told to dance on stage?

 

[Gasbandit]

And only two weeks out of being topical. Cheers.

 

[wulf3n]

I wasn't there so if they were genuinely STRIPPERS stripping their clothes off down to thongs/breasts then we have a problem because would be completely inappropriate.

However if they were nothing more than dancing girls in sexy clothing then that is more than fine, they're just there to dance and put on a show. The word "stripper" seems to be getting tossed around rather lazily in this thread, it makes me think people know what an actual stripper is and what an actual stripper does :S

edit: Yup, digging up more info on this incident, here we go: http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2013/03/27/really-igda-party-at-gdc-brings-on-the-female-dancers/
Strippers my ass, just TWO dancers. However it seems that enough people complained about that so the IGDA won't be doing it again. I can see that it was inappropriate, this wasn't just some typical gaming convention/party. Fair enough.

The fact that it made the female co-chair of IGDA's Women In Games Group step down [http://au.businessinsider.com/igdas-after-party-with-women-dancers-2013-3] is HILARIOUS though, so that's all it takes to make a feminist run away? Talk about over-emotional

Strippers, dancers, over-zealous attendees, whatever. It doesn't make any difference, as it's still something that shouldn't be at a conference.

I understand your position, the organisers were just trying to make it more "interesting" but If you need something like dancers to want to attend, then you shouldn't be in the industry.

I would be incensed by the presence of strippers of any gender "hired" to perform at a Video Game event.

... Are you suggesting these ladies were kidnapped and then told to dance on stage?

No, just not wanting to exclude professional strippers who may be attending for the games, rather than attending as a means of getting paid.

 

[Snooder]

To every privileged straight male defending the strippers:

....imagine you're a videogame developer at a videogame convention. Suddenly, a bunch of male strippers wearing only a tanga hop on the table and put their asses in front of your face, just like the girl is doing in this comic.

Now you can understand why there was a righteous outrage at this.

Ok, imagine this scenario. You are at a party with a bunch of people in the fashion industry. Let's say it's an after-party at Milan fashion week. It's a mix, but most of the people there are either female or gay males. It's a pretty casual environment, there's loud music and drinking; but some people are having serious conversations because hey, they all work in the same industry. There are a couple of fairly buff shirtless dudes dancing on stage while singing "it's raining men." Everyone is generally enjoying themselves.

Now imagine some guy in the corner yelling "Fuck all this gay shit. Shit's fucking gross. I can't believe the sponsors are bringing this into a professional event."

That guy would be, rightly, considered a homophobic, buzz-killing douche.

 

[wulf3n]

Ok, imagine this scenario. You are at a party with a bunch of people in the fashion industry. Let's say it's an after-party at Milan fashion week. It's a mix, but most of the people there are either female or gay males. It's a pretty casual environment, there's loud music and drinking; but some people are having serious conversations because hey, they all work in the same industry. There are a couple of fairly buff shirtless dudes dancing on stage while singing "it's raining men." Everyone is generally enjoying themselves.

Now imagine some guy in the corner yelling "Fuck all this gay shit. Shit's fucking gross. I can't believe the sponsors are bringing this into a professional event."

That guy would be, rightly, considered a homophobic, buzz-killing douche.

I like how you subtly alter the reversal of the situation from the one that actually occurred, turning the offended into someone the audience can hate.

It's a nice use of loaded language, and I'm sure someone will be fooled by it.

 

[Snooder]

Ok, imagine this scenario. You are at a party with a bunch of people in the fashion industry. Let's say it's an after-party at Milan fashion week. It's a mix, but most of the people there are either female or gay males. It's a pretty casual environment, there's loud music and drinking; but some people are having serious conversations because hey, they all work in the same industry. There are a couple of fairly buff shirtless dudes dancing on stage while singing "it's raining men." Everyone is generally enjoying themselves.

Now imagine some guy in the corner yelling "Fuck all this gay shit. Shit's fucking gross. I can't believe the sponsors are bringing this into a professional event."

That guy would be, rightly, considered a homophobic, buzz-killing douche.

I like how you subtly alter the reversal of the situation from the one that actually occurred, turning the offended into someone the audience can hate.

That was rather the point.

A lot of the furor over this depends on your point of view. To some, the guy in the corner is an irritating annoyance turning what should be a fun time into an straight-laced and overly serious event based solely on his own selfishness and lack of tolerance for the ability of others to enjoy things that make him personally uncomfortable. Guess what, that is EXACTLY what "privileged straight males" think about people complaining over booth-babes or dancers or whatever other "pandering to the straight male" people are complaining about today.

Ultimately the issue boils down to "this thing is enjoyed by other people but makes me uncomfortable."

 

[wulf3n]

That was rather the point.

A lot of the furor over this depends on your point of view. To some, the guy in the corner is an irritating annoyance turning what should be a fun time into an straight-laced and overly serious event based solely on his own selfishness and lack of tolerance for the ability of others to enjoy things that make him personally uncomfortable. Guess what, that is EXACTLY what "privileged straight males" think about people complaining over booth-babes or dancers or whatever other "pandering to the straight male" people are complaining about today.

Ultimately the issue boils down to "this thing is enjoyed by other people but makes me uncomfortable."

It's facetious, and if you need to exaggerate a point to persuade others, you might not have as strong of a position as you initially thought.

You believe it's a case of someone trying to ruin others fun, but it's not like she went into a strip club and started brow beating, it was a games conference that hired dancers. What does that have to do with games?

The real issue is the exclusionary behaviour that is continually demonstrated by the games industry. Why do we need dancers at a games conference. Who is really "hurt" by their exclusion. Whether you understand the position or not, enough people found this in bad taste to the point of resignation.

 

[Snooder]

It's facetious, and if you need to exaggerate a point to persuade others, you might not have as strong of a position as you initially thought.

I'm not exaggerating anything. I'm providing a direct analogue to the situation while replacing the actors to better illustrate how your personal bias affects your view.

You believe it's a case of someone trying to ruin others fun, but it's not like she went into a strip club and started brow beating, it was a games conference that hired dancers. What does that have to do with games?

What does fashion have to do with shirtless dudes?

The real issue is the exclusionary behaviour that is continually demonstrated by the games industry.

This sort of statement is what I'm trying to get people to think more logically about. Hiring dancers for a party has nothing to do with 'excluding' anyone from anything. It's there to entertain the demographic that makes up the majority of the attendees. It's as offensive to describe that as "exclusionary" or "sexist" as it is to complain that shirtless guys at a party where most people like seeing shirtless guys is a personal affront to your straight male sensibilities. Other people like that stuff, and you just had the bad luck to be in the minority on this specific occasion.

Why do we need dancers at a games conference. Who is really "hurt" by their exclusion. Whether you understand the position or not, enough people found this in bad taste to the point of resignation.

The point is not whether we "need" dancers or not. Clearly we don't. We also don't need alcohol or live music or DJs or any other 'fun' things that go on at informal events. But what's the point of having an informal event if you can't actually be informal and have fun? The fact that someone else's version of "fun" doesn't jibe with your own does not make their version of fun any less valid or important.

 

[xorinite]

Strippers, dancers, over-zealous attendees, whatever. It doesn't make any difference, as it's still something that shouldn't be at a conference.

For me that largely depends on the nature of the conference in question, and the type of dancer that is being employed does make a considerable difference.

If matthew lane is right however, this wasn't actually at the conference at all.

Therefore to be relevent; what are your opinions regarding female stage dancers (or over-zealous attendees?) at raves in nightclubs like the one organised by the IGDA?

EDIT correction: the IGDA didn't organise the rave. They organised a party in a nightclub, the rave was organised by Wargaming.net. (added 8/4/2013)


Do you see a problem with the IGDA organising two different style of events for its members, or with the hiring of female stage dancers for its nightclub events, or game developers associating for night club events?

Or do you have a different concern?

Personally I see there might be some conflict of branding if you organise two very distinctly different kind of events. I can also understand why someone who worked for them might be concerned with the direction the IGDA is going if they were wanting it to be about professional events like conferences and debates, rather than general entertainment events like dancing nights.

Additionally, I despise raves. So such events would exclude me regardless of any additional factors.

 

[Vivid Kazumi]

MMMMMMMMMM that one sexy ass all right-You should do more strips like this Desu

Spoiler

episode plox

 

[wulf3n]

I'm not exaggerating anything. I'm providing a direct analogue to the situation while replacing the actors to better illustrate how your personal bias affects your view.

I'm sorry I must have missed the part where Brenda Romero said "Fuck all this lesbian shit. Shit's fucking gross." in those exact words. Hah direct analogue, you crack me up.

What does fashion have to do with shirtless dudes?

Absolutely nothing, but yours is an entirely fabricated scenario. There's no evidence to show that actually occurred. Other industries are probably smart enough not to pull stunts like this.

This sort of statement is what I'm trying to get people to think more logically about. Hiring dancers for a party has nothing to do with 'excluding' anyone from anything.

If a part of your audience are offended by said behaviour, whether you intend it or not you're excluding them.

It's there to entertain the demographic that makes up the majority of the attendees.

Chicken or the Egg. Maybe they're only the majority because of the exclusionary behaviour.

It's as offensive to describe that as "exclusionary" or "sexist" as it is to complain that shirtless guys at a party where most people like seeing shirtless guys is a personal affront to your straight male sensibilities.

Spoken like someone who's always been a part of the majority. No ones saying these types of parties can't exist, just that their prevalence in GAMES CONVENTIONS is ridiculous and unnecessary. It detracts nothing of note if removed, yet discourages others when included.

Other people like that stuff, and you just had the bad luck to be in the minority on this specific occasion.

And you wonder where "privileged straight males" comes from.

The point is not whether we "need" dancers or not. Clearly we don't. We also don't need alcohol or live music or DJs or any other 'fun' things that go on at informal events. But what's the point of having an informal event if you can't actually be informal and have fun? The fact that someone else's version of "fun" doesn't jibe with your own does not make their version of fun any less valid or important.

There are plenty of places you can go for "informal events" if a group want to go to something like that they can. When you organise you're own event you need to think of the messages being sent to those that don't share your view of "fun". The fact that you don't understand [or don't care] is why the "privileged straight males" line gets thrown around.