On Gaymers and Cons

[Zydrate]

Whoa...hostility bro, uncalled for. Took that all a little personally, didn't you?

Why shouldn't he? He had a VERY valid point.

Let me point out this part:

How can, - Snip - somebody pitch the idea that the way for me to feel "Normal" is to go to a place where I'm subject to whispers and stares, slurs and sometimes outright confrontation and threats of violence?

Because it simply moves the problem a little bit to the left. It doesn't fix anything.

It's as good an option as any for the moment.
I can definitely see the "Moving it to the side" point. But for the moment, the human race isn't the beacon of tolerance and we're going to take what we can get.

 

[Abomination]

Mostly because I don't want a guy like this

Coming up to me and being the umpteenth guy to ask me the dumbest lesbian questions that I keep hearing.

I don't go to cons, but I can see the logic. Maybe I just want to play some goddamn demos, not be an educator for how two females have sex.

I can assure you that people who do that are also obnoxious to NON-homosexual people.

How can, - Snip - somebody pitch the idea that the way for me to feel "Normal" is to go to a place where I'm subject to whispers and stares, slurs and sometimes outright confrontation and threats of violence?

When has this happened at a gaming convention? If it did was security notified?... apart from the stares, I guess. Can't be upset with someone for staring at/taking notice of public displays of affection (for how else would they know you to be homosexual?).

 

[Thyunda]

Whoa...hostility bro, uncalled for. Took that all a little personally, didn't you?

Why shouldn't he? He had a VERY valid point.

Let me point out this part:

How can, - Snip - somebody pitch the idea that the way for me to feel "Normal" is to go to a place where I'm subject to whispers and stares, slurs and sometimes outright confrontation and threats of violence?

Because it simply moves the problem a little bit to the left. It doesn't fix anything.

It's as good an option as any for the moment.
I can definitely see the "Moving it to the side" point. But for the moment, the human race isn't the beacon of tolerance and we're going to take what we can get.

And if you take a temporary concession, then why is there any urgency to forging a permanent solution? Punishing homophobia is useless if you've hidden the victims away. It's like locking people up for their 'protection' after a violent assault rather than jailing the attacker.

 

[Zydrate]

Mostly because I don't want a guy like this

Coming up to me and being the umpteenth guy to ask me the dumbest lesbian questions that I keep hearing.

I don't go to cons, but I can see the logic. Maybe I just want to play some goddamn demos, not be an educator for how two females have sex.

I can assure you that people who do that are also obnoxious to NON-homosexual people.

Not every time. Some of them are just socially inept, and have no idea how inconsiderate they're being.

I like to avoid it altogether. I imagine others would to. Therefore, a separate convention.

 

[Darken12]

(for how else would they know you to be homosexual?).

I tackled this earlier in the thread, too.

"Uh, PDA? It's a thing that happens between normal young couples. They hold hands, they stand close together, they might even kiss. All those things are clear signs of being at least bi, if not gay. Also transexuals. They don't always pass perfectly, particularly when they're in costumes. Also gossip. You go with someone who knows you're gay, who feels obligated to spread that for one reason or the other. Also some LGBT people fall squarely into the trite old stereotypes you see on TV and you can safely assume that yup, that butch woman really is a lesbian and that effeminate guy really is gay. It's a hotly debated topic within the LGBT community, but it happens. Also, people can out themselves by making comments that have nothing to do with sex, such as speaking of their boyfriends, getting caught staring at a booth babe/promotional poster, or saying "Nathan Drake looked pretty cute in the last game."

There are many, many different ways people can find out you're LGBT. You don't need the T-shirt."

 

[Guestyman]

Whoa...hostility bro, uncalled for. Took that all a little personally, didn't you?

*sigh* Firstly, it's hard to get the exact emotional context of something across correctly in a text only medium. I, for example, don't know if you're being sincere or disingenuous in accusing me of getting hostile, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former.

If you took it as me being specifically hostile towards you, rather than just kinda exasperated at this entire conversation then I hope this clears it up. I quoted your own words and syntax back at you, not to be hostile, but as a rhetorical device that allowed me to address each of your points in a clearly signposted way. So yeah, that was my intent there.

Secondly, it's not something to be taken as not personal, because it *is* personal. It's not an abstract thought experiment to me like it may be for you. It's my life. It's very easy to be emotionally detached from a situation you don't have to experience, but for those of us that *do* have to suffer through abuse, ostracisation, slurs, threats of violence and other forms of bigotry it is actually immensely frustrating when every effort we make to try and address these issues is met with open hostility, disingenuous weaselling, concern trolling, and an outright unwillingness to attempt understanding. Note that I'm not accusing you of any of these things, but merely illustrating the kinds of things that have cropped up in this thread that might make it more likely for me to respond in a way that could be taken as getting short with you, because after 18 pages of this, I'm tired. And it's my birthday. And this isn't how I wanted to be spending my birthday. -_- So I'm not always taking 100% care to triple check every word I type to make sure it couldn't be taken the wrong way. To be fair though, many on the other side haven't been doing that either so I don't see why that need be an expectation on me.

You see it as demanding special treatment, but really, we paid for it ourselves, organised it ourselves, run it ourselves, and invite everyone to share in it with us. It's not your place to say we can't have it.

 

[Novaova]

You are doubly my hero for going through all of this aggravation on your birthday of all days. That's service above and beyond the call of duty. <3

 

[Darken12]

You are doubly my hero for going through all of this aggravation on your birthday of all days. That's service above and beyond the call of duty. <3

I cannot possibly agree more.

You sir, are made of steel.

 

[Abomination]

I can assure you that people who do that are also obnoxious to NON-homosexual people.

Not every time. Some of them are just socially inept, and have no idea how inconsiderate they're being.

I like to avoid it altogether. I imagine others would to. Therefore, a separate convention.

Yes, every time. The very fact they're asking you about your sex life and you're essentially a complete stranger makes them obnoxious - you being homosexual or not doesn't factor into how they're being unsavoury.

That being said, how would attending a homosexual friendly convention prevent this type of conversation? I imagine it would actually have a higher chance of taking place given how homosexuality will be the topic on the tip of every tongue.

(for how else would they know you to be homosexual?).

I tackled this earlier in the thread, too.

"Uh, PDA? It's a thing that happens between normal young couples. They hold hands, they stand close together, they might even kiss. All those things are clear signs of being at least bi, if not gay. Also transexuals. They don't always pass perfectly, particularly when they're in costumes. Also gossip. You go with someone who knows you're gay, who feels obligated to spread that for one reason or the other. Also some LGBT people fall squarely into the trite old stereotypes you see on TV and you can safely assume that yup, that butch woman really is a lesbian and that effeminate guy really is gay. It's a hotly debated topic within the LGBT community, but it happens. Also, people can out themselves by making comments that have nothing to do with sex, such as speaking of their boyfriends, getting caught staring at a booth babe/promotional poster, or saying "Nathan Drake looked pretty cute in the last game."

There are many, many different ways people can find out you're LGBT. You don't need the T-shirt."

Just so I have this right, someone either intentionally or inadvertently outs themselves as being homosexual in some way. In reaction to that someone -looks- at them, for whatever reason, and that's an issue? I confess when someone hints at themselves at being homosexual I will give them more than a casual once-over as I find homosexual people to be generally endearing and I appreciate their presence and company.

PDA generates stares, no matter the sexual orientation of the affectionate.

I can understand the confrontation, the threats, physical violence being something folks would want to avoid - but all of those things are grounds for removal from a gaming convention. Contact security and you've taken care of the problem. When someone gets thrown out of a convention they paid money to because they were inconsiderate it actually tends to learn them pretty damn quick.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Now i know you wanted the opinion of someone gay, but unfortnately the view of many minorities is one of self imposed victimhood... An the primary triat of self imposed victims is how hyperbolic they are about there victimhood. I'm not saying that was likely to happen here, but its better off that someone fairly objective makes a statement.

It is laughable that, considering what you've posted so far, you consider yourself in any way objective.

K legit question time from a straight guy and Id prefer my answer from a gay guy. How much homophobia is there at cons?

More than enough. If I'm in a relationship with a guy I make a point of not taking him to cons with me nowadays. It can range from stares and whispers, to outright being called a fag to my face. I even once got yelled at for sitting with my boyfriend at the in-con cafe with my boyfriend and having my arm around his shoulders in an obviously affectionate way. This woman didn't like me doing that where her children could see it, you see.

My rights do not end where your feelings begin. You being offended by me using the word ****** in a different context means absolutely nothing to me.

I am not disputing your right to say it. You have every right to say it. I'm saying that if you *do* say it the consequence is that you will be needlessly hurting people for no good reason. I am saying that while I have no ability to infringe on your rights to say whatever hateful and hurtful things you wish, and indeed I have no desire to infringe on your rights, I wish to influence your decisions. I have informed you multiple times now that to use that word is offensive and hurtful to many people. You can no longer claim ignorance of this fact if you do so. I now consider it a moral failing on your part if you do and judge you accordingly.

Notice how I didn't infringe on your rights there? Or before? I made an impassioned plea to your humanity instead to stop being needlessly hurtful. I'm not censoring you, I'm asking you to make the decision to censor yourself. You are of course, free to ignore that. Just as I am free to adjust my opinion of you accordingly. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from people thinking you're a dick if you make *bad* speech.

Hmm interesting. Another interesting point is that unlike other things where we try to up the security here were trying to better all the people attending or in this case seperate them entirely. Would it not be more affective to police this kind of nonsense? But then you cant police every little thing so I see the point now. even with more armed guards noone wants to run up to a guard and go "He call me name" Id wager that a thicker skin on this point will be fundamental to changing the gay community from something marginalized to respected or at the very least left alone.

Im gonna do something i normally would object to and support this con on the grounds that its "a con thats gay friendly" and not "a gay con" I hope it doesnt become a trend I dont want black asian and mexican cons they seem backwards and self pitying to me. Completely going against the antisegregation laws that were hard fought for in this country. But this case is a bit different.

Oh and I like you guestyman you seem straight up and reasonable. Not easily emotionally compromised like unfortunately some people and groups claiming to represent the gay community have been.

And you helped me "get" it. So congrats your words sir were not wasted.

 

[Thyunda]

You see it as demanding special treatment, but really, we paid for it ourselves, organised it ourselves, run it ourselves, and invite everyone to share in it with us. It's not your place to say we can't have it.

Okay. First. Happy birthday man, why are you not out celebrating? This is not the place for birthday people.

Secondly. I don't see it as demanding special treatment. Not in the slightest. If it wasn't clear in my posts, my ire is directed at the fact that this is presented as a solution. What is it solving? Nothing at all. For example, I like to go to a rock club because I don't really attract the type of people that go to regular clubs.

This is nothing like that. In my example, I'm not asking people with different interests to accept me as one of them. I have no need for that, because I enjoy my interests more than their's.
Being gay is not an interest of yours. It's just part of who you are. You don't hang around with other gay people because you like to discuss being gay any more than I would like to discuss being straight. Sexuality is irrelevant unless you're putting the moves on someone. At least, that's the way I tend to treat it. Don't sexually assault me and we're chill. So far nobody has sexually assaulted me. So I'm cool with everyone.

The problem I have with all of this ISN'T that I don't think gay people should have special treatment. My problem is that I don't think it should have to come to that. I hate the idea that we as a society have reached a stage of intolerance where rounding up all the victims and putting them in their own version of our events is somehow a solution. Because it really isn't. My analogy of the flu victim wasn't saying that gay people behave like a flu victim thinking they have pneumonia, it referred to the fact that people react badly to homosexuality, so we acknowledge that gays have no place in straight culture and put them somewhere else - ie giving the flu sufferer pneumonia treatment to make them feel safer.

I'm aggressive and I don't do things by halves. I'm actually on the side of tolerance. I'm just a bastard about it.

 

[Novaova]

Don't consider the gay con a prison for gay people. Consider it a fortress or an armed camp, where we can gather our strength. (Edit: not to mention catch a breather!)

 

[Darken12]

Yes, every time. The very fact they're asking you about your sex life and you're essentially a complete stranger makes them obnoxious - you being homosexual or not doesn't factor into how they're being unsavoury.

Her point is that they wouldn't ask if she wasn't gay. Her homosexuality is treated as an acceptable excuse to be obnoxious (as you can see by the people in this very thread).

That being said, how would attending a homosexual friendly convention prevent this type of conversation? I imagine it would actually have a higher chance of taking place given how homosexuality will be the topic on the tip of every tongue.

If those people are LGBT, it's a matter of internal policing. We take care of it on our own. As a community, we are capable of self-regulation and enforcing social standards that make us feel comfortable.

If they're straight, we can assume the number of such cases will be lessened significantly, and if they do happen, we will deal with it knowing that our problems will be taken seriously and not ignored.

Just so I have this right, someone either intentionally or inadvertently outs themselves as being homosexual in some way. In reaction to that someone -looks- at them, for whatever reason, and that's an issue? I confess when someone hints at themselves at being homosexual I will give them more than a casual once-over as I find homosexual people to be generally endearing and I appreciate their presence and company.

There is a difference between looking and staring. A stare is an intense look that is prolonged far, far more than is socially acceptable, often combined with an undesirable feeling (such as prejudice, in this case), to the point where the person feels visibly uncomfortable. Often this visible discomfort does not cause the staring to stop. The timeframe of this is in dozens of seconds or several minutes, not mere seconds. There is a very strong difference between looking and staring.

PDA generates stares, no matter the sexual orientation of the affectionate.

Depends on the PDA. Kissing and overt groping of sexual parts, sure. But holding hands, hugging, putting an arm casually around someone, sharing personal space, making eyes at each other, flirting and other PG displays of PDA do not generate stares when done by straight couples. They do generate stares, whispering, mocking or outright name-calling when done by same-sex couples.

I can understand the confrontation, the threats, physical violence being something folks would want to avoid - but all of those things are grounds for removal from a gaming convention. Contact security and you've taken care of the problem. When someone gets thrown out of a convention they paid money to because they were inconsiderate it actually tends to learn them pretty damn quick.

I cannot vouch for regular cons (someone else should field that one for me), but it could be possible to do something like that and leave no evidence to present to security. Even without that, I can assure you that it's possible to ruin someone's day without doing anything illegal. Like I said before, staring, whispering, mocking, laughing, name-calling, etc. Nobody's gonna get kicked from a con because of that. They will blame us, saying we're overreacting, playing the victim, that this is perfectly normal, etc. We end up having to swallow the humiliation and passive hostility, and then straight people get arrogant and dismissive when we say we want our own con.

 

[Guestyman]

You see it as demanding special treatment, but really, we paid for it ourselves, organised it ourselves, run it ourselves, and invite everyone to share in it with us. It's not your place to say we can't have it.

Okay. First. Happy birthday man, why are you not out celebrating? This is not the place for birthday people.

Thanks man! I'm sitting in my room with the fan on full blast and the internet as my only source of entertainment because it's 10:00 in the morning in the middle of summer and it's 42 degrees C outside. -_- Stupid weather.

Secondly. I don't see it as demanding special treatment. Not in the slightest. If it wasn't clear in my posts, my ire is directed at the fact that this is presented as a solution. What is it solving? Nothing at all. For example, I like to go to a rock club because I don't really attract the type of people that go to regular clubs.

It's not being presented as a permanent solution though. It's being presented as a band-aid to hold the wound closed while we look for the stitches and antiseptic.

This is nothing like that. In my example, I'm not asking people with different interests to accept me as one of them. I have no need for that, because I enjoy my interests more than their's.
Being gay is not an interest of yours. It's just part of who you are. You don't hang around with other gay people because you like to discuss being gay any more than I would like to discuss being straight.

That's not entirely true in either sense though. Straight people do sit around and talk about being straight, when they talk about their relationships, quote unquote "locker-room talk", noticing the attractiveness of people around them, "I'd hit that" kinda conversations, who's slept with who gossip. Love and sexuality are fundamental things about humanity, and things that we all have in common, and are well worth discussion.

Queer people have even more to talk about on top of that. Comparing and contrasting of coming out stories and histories of acceptance/bigotry, bitching about/celebrating recent political accomplishments/defeats, discussing things like the issues of marginalisation within a subculture and the best way to deal with it (ironically enough).

Sexuality is irrelevant unless you're putting the moves on someone. At least, that's the way I tend to treat it. Don't sexually assault me and we're chill. So far nobody has sexually assaulted me. So I'm cool with everyone.

The problem I have with all of this ISN'T that I don't think gay people should have special treatment. My problem is that I don't think it should have to come to that. I hate the idea that we as a society have reached a stage of intolerance where rounding up all the victims and putting them in their own version of our events is somehow a solution. Because it really isn't. My analogy of the flu victim wasn't saying that gay people behave like a flu victim thinking they have pneumonia, it referred to the fact that people react badly to homosexuality, so we acknowledge that gays have no place in straight culture and put them somewhere else - ie giving the flu sufferer pneumonia treatment to make them feel safer.

I'm aggressive and I don't do things by halves. I'm actually on the side of tolerance. I'm just a bastard about it.

Like I said further up the post. It's not a permanent solution. If the problem of queer marginalisation in gaming culture gets fixed Gaymercon will in all likelihood cease to exist (Or change its purpose. We might just decide that by then it's fun enough to be worth keeping around)

 

[Darken12]

Secondly. I don't see it as demanding special treatment. Not in the slightest. If it wasn't clear in my posts, my ire is directed at the fact that this is presented as a solution. What is it solving? Nothing at all. For example, I like to go to a rock club because I don't really attract the type of people that go to regular clubs.

I see your point, I do. But like I said before, over and over in this thread, it's better to let the LGBT community decide what they consider a solution or not (even if they fail), rather than ending up constantly doing what (in this case, well-meaning) straight people tell them to do.

Being gay is not an interest of yours. It's just part of who you are. You don't hang around with other gay people because you like to discuss being gay any more than I would like to discuss being straight. Sexuality is irrelevant unless you're putting the moves on someone. At least, that's the way I tend to treat it. Don't sexually assault me and we're chill. So far nobody has sexually assaulted me. So I'm cool with everyone.

Sexuality is part of the gaming industry. It's pervasive. And so far, it's only been about the straight males. I've said it over and over. Here's a link [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.397621-On-Gaymers-and-Cons?page=7#16241470].

The problem I have with all of this ISN'T that I don't think gay people should have special treatment. My problem is that I don't think it should have to come to that. I hate the idea that we as a society have reached a stage of intolerance where rounding up all the victims and putting them in their own version of our events is somehow a solution. Because it really isn't. My analogy of the flu victim wasn't saying that gay people behave like a flu victim thinking they have pneumonia, it referred to the fact that people react badly to homosexuality, so we acknowledge that gays have no place in straight culture and put them somewhere else - ie giving the flu sufferer pneumonia treatment to make them feel safer.

I love the sentiment, I really do, but nobody asks you to support the con. LGBT people want to get together and talk about games, let it happen. If you prefer that the con was unnecessary, start working on promoting LGBT acceptance and representation in the gamer community. You'll know your efforts were successful when LGBT people don't feel a gaymer con is desirable.

 

[Guestyman]

You are doubly my hero for going through all of this aggravation on your birthday of all days. That's service above and beyond the call of duty. <3

COD pun intended?

 

[Eri]

I thought I had a great post to add but it seems to have been overlooked. So here it is again.

"I want to belong... by being sorted out !!!"

Yup, that's a common wish, not only shared by the LGBT community, but by pretty much everyone.
You can't approach the question of the "Why this convention ? What's the point ?" objectively, because there's no tangible objective argument justifying it, no matter how much some feisty people on this thread will try to convince otherwise.

It's all "justified" by subjectivity, a big mix of frustration of being insulted on online games for a sexual orientation (I'm guessing, based on some arguments I'm reading; and there's probably some other stuff I'd never understand personally, which is fine).
It's not a logical move, so trying to understand it like that will hurt your brain.

But it being illogical doesn't make it nonsense : Of course there's an issue, (just look a at multiplayer Call of duty game on Youtube and you'll get the picture). Is this the best way to deal with the problem though ?

As for my own opinion on the conference, I think it's dumb, because it could be integrated as a panel in already existing well-known conventions, thus informing and sensitising more people (and probably the CONCERNED people) to the issue (as it is, it's preaching to the choir).

The "fear of bigots crashing your presentation" argument is just an excuse, I'm sure the Comic con (for example) security is qualified to deal with those idiots.
And don't quote me on that, but I'm also inclined to think those panels wouldn't be rejected by conference administrative staff: rejecting a panel of this nature is bad publicity, green lighting it make them look progressive.

"Yes, but it is a tight-knit community with individual that would enjoy meeting people going through the same troubles and sharing the same passion simultaneously."

Well, yeah, that's exactly my point : The main motivation, is to provide a shiny, "my very own thing" kinda feeling, to that community. If you wanna feel like you belong and have fun, that's a good place for you (gaming cons in general are, too), but don't tell me you're trying to tackle the issue with this.

As I said, I think it's dumb, but, if I turn my brain off for a second, I also think it's okay too. Because even though it's not serving the "cause" as well as it could be, according to me, it provides a feeling of satisfaction and belonging to a community that may be craving for it.

 

[Zydrate]

I can assure you that people who do that are also obnoxious to NON-homosexual people.

Not every time. Some of them are just socially inept, and have no idea how inconsiderate they're being.

I like to avoid it altogether. I imagine others would to. Therefore, a separate convention.

Yes, every time. The very fact they're asking you about your sex life and you're essentially a complete stranger makes them obnoxious - you being homosexual or not doesn't factor into how they're being unsavoury.

That being said, how would attending a homosexual friendly convention prevent this type of conversation? I imagine it would actually have a higher chance of taking place given how homosexuality will be the topic on the tip of every tongue.

Wat.

You think we all hang out talking about specifically gay things?

No, if we're at a Gaming Convention, we're going to talk about games.
Beyond the occasional "I'd hit that" on a poster (Mentioned in the other part of your multi-quote post), those types of things don't happen at a "higher rate" just because we're gay.

 

[Novaova]

You are doubly my hero for going through all of this aggravation on your birthday of all days. That's service above and beyond the call of duty. <3

COD pun intended?

No pun intended.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

gay friendly con does seem less hypocritical than" We need our own con because we dont want to be different." I accept this.


K legit question time from a straight guy and Id prefer my answer from a gay guy. How much homophobia is there at cons?

Im sorry but I dont buy that gay people are just being heckled left and right at nerd conventions. Im still a believer that its only a very small minority of codblops players that have given the greatly inclusive majority of us gamers and nerds a bad name. And that there is no deep seated epidemic.


But with enough stories of this or that happening I can be proven wrong.

Eh, it's less about being bullied, and more about feeling like an outlier. Like many have said, most gaming cons are targeted at white, straight males aged 18 - 35. This is because most of the people who buy games are white straight males aged 18 - 35. But that's fine! No-one is saying don't do that. What they are saying is, hey, this place doesn't really seem to acknowledge our existence in a way that makes us feel wanted, this place makes us feel like outsiders, this place makes us feel unwanted, so we're gonna go make a con where we're explicitly wanted.

There probably is bullying at cons. Probably not a LOT, but it no doubt happens, just as it still happens in bars, or on the streets. How many gays are there in the world? How many gaming conventions or events happen every month? Do the maths on that. I mean, we know women still get bullied at cons, right? ...and there's also a difference, since a woman can't not be a woman, but a gay man can hide his true self. Discrimination doesn't need to be aimed at anyone directly, it could be as much as stifling an idea. But at the end of the day, none of that matters. These people feel uncomfortable, whether it is by other people's actions, lack of action, or not. They are afraid, they don't feel safe, so they are creating a place where they do feel safe. That's all that really matters. As far as I know, they aren't saying, "hey, so those OTHER gaming conventions are full of bigoted homophobic dicks!" They're just saying, "eh, we don't feel completely catered to here, or like we can be ourselves here." Whether or not bullying happens or not? This is how these people feel about "regular" cons. It is no-one's fault, not in the slightest. This is about giving people more choice; like I said, about being more explicitly inclusive. There's a difference between acknowledging a minority exists and making sure they feel like they actually belong, eh?