On Gaymers and Cons

[101flyboy]

What's funny is how some straight people not really in the know (aka non-ally straights) have made statements like "what do games have to do with sexuality", or "why make everything about your sexuality", get shown example after example of games promoted with an eye on the straight male crowd, and then still not realize that games are often sexualized and gaming culture is clearly sexualized, all tailored towards straight men. Of course, basic human interaction is too, and it's disingenuous to believe otherwise. It's little things like that which grate on you, because it's so obvious yet many are so blind. Sexuality plays a MAJOR part in all of our lives and social identities, and especially if you're non-heterosexual. I find it amusing they get upset about segregation when they're allowed to go to Gaymercon, and need no permission, and aren't being patronized, because we welcome them to join. And are allowed to associate with the gay community, and need no permission, and we welcome them to do so. It's almost cute. Like, they don't want us to leave them. They don't want to believe we hate them. They want us to be part of their world, but don't see how their world is cold for us. I actually think a lot of every-day straight people take gay rights more harshly, are more sensitive to it, than many gay people and they catch feelings quicker. They wonder why gay is an issue still, or why gay people make it an issue, without realizing while they may not have an issue, a major portion of people still do. They don't really know what's truly going on so they make ignorant statements out of..........ignorance, but out of love too. So I have to try not to be offended because most people here are truly accepting and respectful.

I just want to shake these kind-but-misguided folk and say: We can fight the bullshit in your world (and trust me, I think most of us here are doing that, we're not hiding in fear from the hate) while at the same time having our own world to decompress, and not deal with bullshit for a while! Every second of every day doesn't need to be crusader mode. Everyone needs to relax sometime. And we want you to come with because we value you!

 

[secretsantaone]

1. Words don't 'belong' to anyone.
2. I didn't tell anyone how to feel.
3. Louis CK doesn't use it ironically, he uses it in a different sense.
4. I didn't call anyone a ******.
5. Stop being a ******.

1. In the real world, there are certain words have a connection to individual groups. That's the REAL world. I know, I get it. You're in a privileged position, you don't understand, and you lack empathy and feeling. That's your own problems you'll have to deal with but in the meantime, you'll need to get over yourself and not think you can do whatever you want without consequence.

2. Yes, you have, you said people should be offended by ****** because it's no longer a gay slur in most circumstances. At the very least, stick by your words. If you're going for the insensitive IDGAF route, stand by it.

3. Maybe you should actually, you know, hear it from the man, or actually read recent interviews he's had where he details his usage of the word. He actually respects the word, it's history and it's power, and respects the gay community. You don't. Thus, most are OK with him using the word, and not people like you. Pretty simple.

4. I didn't say you did.

5. Yet now you have.

It's like you enjoy being completely dense and antagonizing. You must be so proud of yourself and your upstanding character.

1. Connections do not imply ownership. Especially when the word has evolved so much already. The word ****** doesn't belong to a bundle of sticks or Swedish people just because it can be connected to them. Definitions are decided by majority, not minority.

2. I never said they should or should not be offended. I'm just saying people may use the word purely because it's offensive rather than because of overt homosexuality. Sorry if this doesn't fit in with your persecution complex.

3. Different sense, different meaning. That's not irony.

4. Then what's the fucking problem?

5. Because you were being a ******. Also DATS DA JOKE.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Snip

It's not that all of my, or the non-hetero non-cisgender communities thoughts are the only right thoughts, but more like, we're the ones who know how we feel about these things more than your average straight person. So if you're wanting to ask questions and observe, that's fine. You may have presumptions or curiosities that we'll answer, and we'll be closer after the fact. If you're wanting to inject your two cents and dictate to us how we're supposed to feel or make it all about you, that's a different thing, and were not going to be OK with that.

Well you're better off assuming the best in people to start with, or else they might well end up resenting you regardless of word-politics. If you actually want to instigate change in someone, surely it's better to leave them plenty of room to retreat? I think this is one of those honey trumping vinegar situations. Because you're not just putting an idea out there, you're also acting as an ambassador for it.

You can go full-throttle at people if that's your shtick, but I bet people are more often than not walking away thinking that you're the asshole, rather than thinking about their own behaviour. It's an easy out. Whereas something like "Hey, man. I know you don't want to hurt anyone, but your choice of words isn't going down well" allows some room to retreat, and would probably leave them respecting you more too. Which if you want them to try to see things your way... is desirable.

 

[101flyboy]

Snip

It's not that all of my, or the non-hetero non-cisgender communities thoughts are the only right thoughts, but more like, we're the ones who know how we feel about these things more than your average straight person. So if you're wanting to ask questions and observe, that's fine. You may have presumptions or curiosities that we'll answer, and we'll be closer after the fact. If you're wanting to inject your two cents and dictate to us how we're supposed to feel or make it all about you, that's a different thing, and were not going to be OK with that.

Well you're better off assuming the best in people to start with, or else they might well end up resenting you regardless of word-politics. If you actually want to instigate change in someone, surely it's better to leave them plenty of room to retreat? I think this is one of those honey trumping vinegar situations. Because you're not just putting an idea out there, you're also acting as an ambassador for it.

You can go full-throttle at people if that's your shtick, but I bet people are more often than not walking away thinking that you're the asshole, rather than thinking about their own behaviour. It's an easy out. Whereas something like "Hey, man. I know you don't want to hurt anyone, but your choice of words isn't going down well" allows some room to retreat, and would probably leave them respecting you more too. Which if you want them to try to see things your way... is desirable.

Your right. I agree with you. I'm not the best advocate. Definitely not. I'm blunt. I'm more of a "put everything on the table" type. I throw everything on the table and let people decide where they stand. Which is not the best strategy when it comes to discussions where you're trying to educate someone because they'll feel pressured. At the same time, it will make people listen. However, I'm not soft enough to be an advocate. I'm a little too jaded. I'm at the point in my life where I have expectations of people and if they don't meet them then it's like, oh well.

I only speak for myself in debates. I don't speak for the community. I do know how the community tends to think on these issues since I'm in the LGBTQ community. But ultimately it's a mix of listening to them, and knowing what's in my heart. I always listen to what the other party has to say, and I don't make assumptions. I just get tired after a while of the same BS that I don't think should be continuing in 2013. That's something I need to work on, because I know that some people just don't understand or have habits they've developed and don't intent to be hateful. Respecting an individual's views and how they came to them. If a person is open to change I'm all for educating them and enlightening them.

 

[101flyboy]

1. Words don't 'belong' to anyone.
2. I didn't tell anyone how to feel.
3. Louis CK doesn't use it ironically, he uses it in a different sense.
4. I didn't call anyone a ******.
5. Stop being a ******.

1. In the real world, there are certain words have a connection to individual groups. That's the REAL world. I know, I get it. You're in a privileged position, you don't understand, and you lack empathy and feeling. That's your own problems you'll have to deal with but in the meantime, you'll need to get over yourself and not think you can do whatever you want without consequence.

2. Yes, you have, you said people should be offended by ****** because it's no longer a gay slur in most circumstances. At the very least, stick by your words. If you're going for the insensitive IDGAF route, stand by it.

3. Maybe you should actually, you know, hear it from the man, or actually read recent interviews he's had where he details his usage of the word. He actually respects the word, it's history and it's power, and respects the gay community. You don't. Thus, most are OK with him using the word, and not people like you. Pretty simple.

4. I didn't say you did.

5. Yet now you have.

It's like you enjoy being completely dense and antagonizing. You must be so proud of yourself and your upstanding character.

1. Connections do not imply ownership. Especially when the word has evolved so much already. The word ****** doesn't belong to a bundle of sticks or Swedish people just because it can be connected to them. Definitions are decided by majority, not minority.

2. I never said they should or should not be offended. I'm just saying people may use the word purely because it's offensive rather than because of overt homosexuality. Sorry if this doesn't fit in with your persecution complex.

3. Different sense, different meaning. That's not irony.

4. Then what's the fucking problem?

5. Because you were being a ******. Also DATS DA JOKE.

1. Ownership? No. Does it mean you should, at the very least, understand WHY people are sensitive towards the word, and why ****** cuts deep for many, gay and straight? Yes. That's a respect issue. You either have respect for the word and respect for those who have a legitimate reason to be sensitive towards the word or you do not.

2. That's totally true. There is a reason why the word is offensive AND has been connected to homosexuality in history. Because homosexuality is considered offensive. That's the connection that gay people feel daily when the word is used to put someone down. Not when it's used in jest, or as a joke with friends.

3. I'll put it pretty simple: Louis CK believes that being gay is not at all a bad thing. He uses the word ****** as a way to display that people get offended by the word ******, although being a ****** aka gay isn't a negative thing, however due to homophobia people TAKE it offensively. He's manipulating persons' view on both the word and homosexuality.

4/5. I have no problem outside of you trying to make jokes yet failing miserably. Keep it to the comedians.

 

[secretsantaone]

1. Words don't 'belong' to anyone.
2. I didn't tell anyone how to feel.
3. Louis CK doesn't use it ironically, he uses it in a different sense.
4. I didn't call anyone a ******.
5. Stop being a ******.

1. In the real world, there are certain words have a connection to individual groups. That's the REAL world. I know, I get it. You're in a privileged position, you don't understand, and you lack empathy and feeling. That's your own problems you'll have to deal with but in the meantime, you'll need to get over yourself and not think you can do whatever you want without consequence.

2. Yes, you have, you said people should be offended by ****** because it's no longer a gay slur in most circumstances. At the very least, stick by your words. If you're going for the insensitive IDGAF route, stand by it.

3. Maybe you should actually, you know, hear it from the man, or actually read recent interviews he's had where he details his usage of the word. He actually respects the word, it's history and it's power, and respects the gay community. You don't. Thus, most are OK with him using the word, and not people like you. Pretty simple.

4. I didn't say you did.

5. Yet now you have.

It's like you enjoy being completely dense and antagonizing. You must be so proud of yourself and your upstanding character.

1. Connections do not imply ownership. Especially when the word has evolved so much already. The word ****** doesn't belong to a bundle of sticks or Swedish people just because it can be connected to them. Definitions are decided by majority, not minority.

2. I never said they should or should not be offended. I'm just saying people may use the word purely because it's offensive rather than because of overt homosexuality. Sorry if this doesn't fit in with your persecution complex.

3. Different sense, different meaning. That's not irony.

4. Then what's the fucking problem?

5. Because you were being a ******. Also DATS DA JOKE.

1. Ownership? No. Does it mean you should, at the very least, understand WHY people are sensitive towards the word, and why ****** cuts deep for many, gay and straight? Yes. That's a respect issue. You either have respect for the word and respect for those who have a legitimate reason to be sensitive towards the word or you do not.

2. That's totally true. There is a reason why the word is offensive AND has been connected to homosexuality in history. Because homosexuality is considered offensive. That's the connection that gay people feel daily when the word is used to put someone down. Not when it's used in jest, or as a joke with friends.

3. I'll put it pretty simple: Louis CK believes that being gay is not at all a bad thing. He uses the word ****** as a way to display that people get offended by the word ******, although being a ****** aka gay isn't a negative thing, however due to homophobia people TAKE it offensively. He's manipulating persons' view on both the word and homosexuality.

4/5. I have no problem outside of you trying to make jokes yet failing miserably. Keep it to the comedians.

1. Of course I understand why gay people are sensitive about the word ******, as it can be used ass a slur to refer to them. However, I'm not going to stop using a word because a group of people can take it out of context and get offended by it.

2. Deal with it. Though the origins come from gay=bad and that's where the negative connotations derive, it can be used as a general put down without referring to gay people any more. Same theory with "bastard".

3. Louis CK originally never thought the word ****** referred to gay people at all, that was the point. He says that ****** has two distinct meanings in two different contexts.

4/5. Then why are you bitching?

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Snip

It's not that all of my, or the non-hetero non-cisgender communities thoughts are the only right thoughts, but more like, we're the ones who know how we feel about these things more than your average straight person. So if you're wanting to ask questions and observe, that's fine. You may have presumptions or curiosities that we'll answer, and we'll be closer after the fact. If you're wanting to inject your two cents and dictate to us how we're supposed to feel or make it all about you, that's a different thing, and were not going to be OK with that.

Well you're better off assuming the best in people to start with, or else they might well end up resenting you regardless of word-politics. If you actually want to instigate change in someone, surely it's better to leave them plenty of room to retreat? I think this is one of those honey trumping vinegar situations. Because you're not just putting an idea out there, you're also acting as an ambassador for it.

You can go full-throttle at people if that's your shtick, but I bet people are more often than not walking away thinking that you're the asshole, rather than thinking about their own behaviour. It's an easy out. Whereas something like "Hey, man. I know you don't want to hurt anyone, but your choice of words isn't going down well" allows some room to retreat, and would probably leave them respecting you more too. Which if you want them to try to see things your way... is desirable.

Your right. I agree with you. I'm not the best advocate. Definitely not. I'm blunt. I'm more of a "put everything on the table" type. I throw everything on the table and let people decide where they stand. Which is not the best strategy when it comes to discussions where you're trying to educate someone because they'll feel pressured. At the same time, it will make people listen. However, I'm not soft enough to be an advocate. I'm a little too jaded. I'm at the point in my life where I have expectations of people and if they don't meet them then it's like, oh well.

I only speak for myself in debates. I don't speak for the community. I do know how the community tends to think on these issues since I'm in the LGBTQ community. But ultimately it's a mix of listening to them, and knowing what's in my heart. I always listen to what the other party has to say, and I don't make assumptions. I just get tired after a while of the same BS that I don't think should be continuing in 2013. That's something I need to work on, because I know that some people just don't understand or have habits they've developed and don't intent to be hateful. Respecting an individual's views and how they came to them. If a person is open to change I'm all for educating them and enlightening them.

I don't think it's really about being "soft" so much as it's about having tact... which is sorta what you're asking to get from other people, when you think about it.

It being 2013 is irrelevent. Think of all the bullshit, tyranny and mass-delusions of the last 100 years and then ask yourself if it would make any kind of sense if we had just dropped all of that over night. Very little time has passed really.

 

[101flyboy]

1. Of course I understand why gay people are sensitive about the word ******, as it can be used ass a slur to refer to them. However, I'm not going to stop using a word because a group of people can take it out of context and get offended by it.

2. Deal with it. Though the origins come from gay=bad and that's where the negative connotations derive, it can be used as a general put down without referring to gay people any more. Same theory with "bastard".

3. Louis CK originally never thought the word ****** referred to gay people at all, that was the point. He says that ****** has two distinct meanings in two different contexts.

4/5. Then why are you bitching?

1. I never said you should stop using the word. I said you should think twice about using it liberally, or simply using it regardless of context, because at the end of the day, that does NOT represent respect of the word and respect of gay people. That's it. Gay men use ******. Bisexual men use ******. Extremely pro-gay straights use ******. The word ****** in itself is just a word, but it's not a word that exists in a vacuum, and that needs to be respected.

2. No, I don't have to deal with it. Don't ever tell me or anyone else who actually has to SUFFER from the shit that you so callously ignore to simply deal with it. Not going to happen. If you want to be defiant, go right on ahead. You'll be called out every time.

The reason why ****** is used as a general put down is BECAUSE of homophobia. And because being a ****** is considered a negative. That should be enough for you to realize why you should have a bit more respect for the word.

3. "My feelings about ?******? are starting to change. I did this long bit about the word ?******? in my last special, and about how to me it?s always just meant ?annoying.? I grew up with a different meaning to it. So I?m not talking about gay when I call people ******. But I know I can?t ignore the way that it makes gay people feel. It?s not really responsible to just pretend other people aren?t offended. I?m not worried about offending people, but I don?t want to offend them for no fucking reason. Just because I?m being lazy. So I?ve cut down on ?******? a little bit."

Louis CK is truly gay accepting. Are you? I'm not seeing it. So he can use the word and he gets the context, he uses the word appropriately, and you just don't care. And you not caring is effectively a big middle finger to the gay community. So, that's what we give you in return.

4. Your lack of respect is the problem. The fact you think you're funny or somehow taking a stand against sensitivity and being PC. All you are doing is exposing how apathetic, completely removed from reality, and uncaring you are.

 

[101flyboy]

I don't think it's really about being "soft" so much as it's about having tact... which is sorta what you're asking to get from other people, when you think about it.[/qupte]You're right. There is a way to get your point across in a concise, effective way without shouting down others or being disrespectful. I sometimes slip up and I have to work on it.

It being 2013 is irrelevent. Think of all the bullshit, tyranny and mass-delusions of the last 100 years and then ask yourself if it would make any kind of sense if we had just dropped all of that over night. Very little time has passed really.

Good point. Social Change is a very slow, arduous process. You have to be tough, and have thick skin, keep your eyes on the prize and stay positive through all the negativity.

 

[secretsantaone]

1. I never said you should stop using the word. I said you should think twice about using it liberally, or simply using it regardless of context, because at the end of the day, that does NOT represent respect of the word and respect of gay people. That's it. Gay men use ******. Bisexual men use ******. Extremely pro-gay straights use ******. The word ****** in itself is just a word, but it's not a word that exists in a vacuum, and that needs to be respected.

2. No, I don't have to deal with it. Don't ever tell me or anyone else who actually has to SUFFER from the shit that you so callously ignore to simply deal with it. Not going to happen. If you want to be defiant, go right on ahead. You'll be called out every time.

The reason why ****** is used as a general put down is BECAUSE of homophobia. And because being a ****** is considered a negative. That should be enough for you to realize why you should have a bit more respect for the word.

3. "My feelings about ?******? are starting to change. I did this long bit about the word ?******? in my last special, and about how to me it?s always just meant ?annoying.? I grew up with a different meaning to it. So I?m not talking about gay when I call people ******. But I know I can?t ignore the way that it makes gay people feel. It?s not really responsible to just pretend other people aren?t offended. I?m not worried about offending people, but I don?t want to offend them for no fucking reason. Just because I?m being lazy. So I?ve cut down on ?******? a little bit."

Louis CK is truly gay accepting. Are you? I'm not seeing it. So he can use the word and he gets the context, he uses the word appropriately, and you just don't care. And you not caring is effectively a big middle finger to the gay community. So, that's what we give you in return.

4. Your lack of respect is the problem. The fact you think you're funny or somehow taking a stand against sensitivity and being PC. All you are doing is exposing how apathetic, completely removed from reality, and uncaring you are.

Jesus christ, this persecution complex.

I've already said that I realise it can be taken as a slur in some contexts that I'd avoid and you're STILL saying that I'm somehow anti-gay? How exactly? A perceived lack of respect?

Respect is earned, the fact that you like dicks isn't really a reason to suddenly respect you. I treat people as individuals, not just as a part of a gay conglomerate.

Doesn't matter if you don't like dealing with it, you're going to have to. The word isn't going anywhere any time soon, so you can either deal with it or get perpetually offended. Your choice.

"Bastard" derives it's connotations from the old idea that a child outside of wedlock is cursed, however when we use bastard as an insult now we don't mean that they're literally a bastard (and I wouldn't imagine bastards would get offended by the term if they heard it), it's just a general pejorative term. This is what's happening to the word ******.

I wonder if you're just as offended by the word "cocksucker"? I mean, when it's directed at a man, the literal meaning is homosexuality.

 

[positiveParadox]

I have a great idea! Let's devote 23 pages of comments to straight men (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.398724-Poll-SCIENCE-DEMANDS-ANSWER-Who-do-you-have-sexytimes-with?page=1) talking about what gay people do/do not need! That can only get the very best of results. The lack of understanding of gay people overall in this thread is disturbing to say the least.

 

[trlkly]

All of those questions are legit. Why do women need their own bathrooms? Because they like a feeling of privacy, and fear being looked at by men. Why do monks need their own monastery? Because part of their faith is about being deliberately separated from the rest of the world in order to concentrate on their religion. Why do gay people need their own con? I can come up with a few answers, but I notice the comic writers didn't.

Of course people are going to keep asking if you don't give them the answers. Trying shame them is just going to backfire. Why assume any of the questions are not sincere?

 

[trlkly]

1. I never said you should stop using the word. I said you should think twice about using it liberally, or simply using it regardless of context, because at the end of the day, that does NOT represent respect of the word and respect of gay people. That's it. Gay men use ******. Bisexual men use ******. Extremely pro-gay straights use ******. The word ****** in itself is just a word, but it's not a word that exists in a vacuum, and that needs to be respected.

2. No, I don't have to deal with it. Don't ever tell me or anyone else who actually has to SUFFER from the shit that you so callously ignore to simply deal with it. Not going to happen. If you want to be defiant, go right on ahead. You'll be called out every time.

The reason why ****** is used as a general put down is BECAUSE of homophobia. And because being a ****** is considered a negative. That should be enough for you to realize why you should have a bit more respect for the word.

3. "My feelings about ?******? are starting to change. I did this long bit about the word ?******? in my last special, and about how to me it?s always just meant ?annoying.? I grew up with a different meaning to it. So I?m not talking about gay when I call people ******. But I know I can?t ignore the way that it makes gay people feel. It?s not really responsible to just pretend other people aren?t offended. I?m not worried about offending people, but I don?t want to offend them for no fucking reason. Just because I?m being lazy. So I?ve cut down on ?******? a little bit."

Louis CK is truly gay accepting. Are you? I'm not seeing it. So he can use the word and he gets the context, he uses the word appropriately, and you just don't care. And you not caring is effectively a big middle finger to the gay community. So, that's what we give you in return.

4. Your lack of respect is the problem. The fact you think you're funny or somehow taking a stand against sensitivity and being PC. All you are doing is exposing how apathetic, completely removed from reality, and uncaring you are.

Jesus christ, this persecution complex.

I've already said that I realise it can be taken as a slur in some contexts that I'd avoid and you're STILL saying that I'm somehow anti-gay? How exactly? A perceived lack of respect?

Respect is earned, the fact that you like dicks isn't really a reason to suddenly respect you. I treat people as individuals, not just as a part of a gay conglomerate.

Doesn't matter if you don't like dealing with it, you're going to have to. The word isn't going anywhere any time soon, so you can either deal with it or get perpetually offended. Your choice.

"Bastard" derives it's connotations from the old idea that a child outside of wedlock is cursed, however when we use bastard as an insult now we don't mean that they're literally a bastard (and I wouldn't imagine bastards would get offended by the term if they heard it), it's just a general pejorative term. This is what's happening to the word ******.

I wonder if you're just as offended by the word "cocksucker"? I mean, when it's directed at a man, the literal meaning is homosexuality.

No, we have a third option. We can treat people who use the term with derision and scorn until they shape up or crack under the pressure and reveal their homophobic selves.

The thing is, you don't just use "******" the way you claim. You used it, publicly, on this message board, in an attempt to defend yourself. You knew people would take it wrong, but you not only don't care, but accuse them of having a persecution complex.

Yes, the word "bastard" has evolved, but only after centuries of being used to mean illegitimate son. ****** has not so evolved--as evidenced by the fact that you have to be careful about saying it around the wrong group of people. Yeah, we all saw that South Park episode. That was just wishful thinking. No one uses the term to just mean "annoying asshole." It's just not been around that long for the meaning to have mutated like that.

It doesn't help that there's no real reason to use the word ****** in conversation, anyways. It's not like, say, the word "gay" which has adopted the meaning once used by words such as "lame," or "retarded" which has the extra meaning of stupid. It has no other meaning but being one of derision or to troll people. It's just like "******" in that regard.

The chances that you've picked up that word as a part of your vocabulary through non-homophobic means is extremely small. It is on you to prove that you use it somehow without homophobic intent, not on us to prove that it's homophobic when it is an inherently homophobic word. No one uses "******" just to mean annoying.

It's like saying we can say Jap or ***** or even ****** without people thinking badly of us. It doesn't happen. There isn't a context where people won't think it is homophobic.

Well, other than using it to mean cigarette--something that, despite using British spellings, you never brought up, so I don't think I have to worry about that being your meaning.

And, yes, "cocksucker" is just as offensive, if not moreso. how in the world did you grow up in such a homophobic place not to know that? Did you grow up with those 11-year-old trolls in Halo?

 

[secretsantaone]

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