On Geek Privilege

wulf3n

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Senare said:
Darth_Payn said:
To be fair, I never once understood the phrase "check your privilege", neither the kind of people its intended for (speaker and target both).
Rational wiki has a good page on the concept of privilege in this context. Check it out <a href=http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Privilege>here. The part about "check your privilege" is in one of the first subsections.
If that's representative of the quality of the rest of the site then it's not worth the paper it's printed on.

The idea of "group privilege" is one of the most moronic things I've ever heard. It feels like a parody given the level of hypocrisy having "Rational" in the name of the website, among other things.

Sure everyone holds some privileges another does not, but this notion that there exists a checklist of privileges that a group supposedly has is insulting, doubly so given that they're perpetuated by people who should know better than to stereotype based on arbitrary criteria.
 

PuckFuppet

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Looking at the comments this is apparently leaning towards being more of an explicitly American thing, at least the experience of it that Bob is describing.

Generationally I'm not sure where I stand compared to the rest of you, 1987 onwards, but my experience has been... well the following. In public school, and mostly between the age of 10-16, I was one of a very small group of people who I would describe as nerdy. We played trading card games, gameboys and I was the token tabletop RPG nut. Most people didn't mind us and we mostly didn't mind them, what bullying may have occurred had nothing to do with my hobbies as I was a 270lbs kid and there was plenty more to say about that than there was about something like Pokemon which few of them would have known much about anyway. I developed a decently thick skin and learned to mock back just as hard but some of it may have gotten to me, the one time it got out of hand I kept telling myself that I'll "do something about it" a good few times until eventually I hit the guy and we flailed wildly trying to hit each other for about two minutes before some teachers pulled us apart. They then did a much better job at beating the shit out of us for starting a fight but that is neither here nor there.

"Geeks" or "nerds" weren't marginalised, mostly because I think from a purely cultural point of view no one cared. I didn't feel victimised, mostly because I didn't choose to as I didn't feel the need to actually care what some other kid thought about me. Did I like it? No, but no one does. I don't see how people think that being stuck in a confined space with about a hundred other random people your age with potentially very little in common was ever going to work out to be sunshine and happiness. That was an all boys school run by a combination of underpaid teachers and monks too, hardly a beacon of social reform.

Moving away from the school image for a moment, geek culture here (Ireland) seems to be a completely different beast. It is only racially homogeneous because... Ireland, it is certainly not biased towards one gender or the other. Sure there are a few ignorant twats who would do the "catcall" thing, but you get those in every group. I was at a con just a week ago where I sat down, in a room filled with tabletop/MTG/Halo/whatever else nerds, and at least half the room was female. There were people of all ages, I ran a Dragon Age RPG game with a bunch of 40+ people from Germany, and the con was even getting slightly more racially diverse. But again, Ireland.

I honestly don't see how my school experience was bad, outright at least. I know people who'd fit the "jock" description and came away from school far more damaged than I could rightly imagine.

tl;dr: "Geek privilege" may be broadly the result of a specific experience, exclusive to certain social systems. But it certainly isn't a phrase which encompasses the "geek culture" as a whole.

Scrumpmonkey said:
As a community i think many of us would be VERY quick to distance ourselves from the more 'Euphoric' side of things if you know what i mean.
Could you elaborate?
 

Mysnomer

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Well, I'm only allowed to give constructive criticism on these forums, but I find that I can't. That's like asking for child rearing tips when your baby has major congenital birth defects. The best advice I could have given you would be to not have had the child in the first place. When content is tarnished, guiding criticism will improve the next iteration. When the source of the content, the core worldview of the writer is flawed, no amount of constructive commentary will help them. Especially when it is driven by a powerful motivator like guilt, and when the societal trend is to feed that guilt.


Sure, the last bit spirals off, but the first part is most certainly truth. Don't feel guilty because you're better off.

For a dissection of how stupid privilege can be when you let it become the conversation, look up "InternetAristocrat" on Youtube.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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ultreos2 said:
Think about this for a second. I disagree with Bob's point of view, some may disagree with mine, we still accept that we are all part of this geek and nerd culture.
I don't. I'm a huge nerd. Singular.

I don't like the "culture" and I do not like being co-opted as part of something I am not interested in being a part of. There are plenty of nerds out there doing their own nerdy thing, without belonging to it as any kind of social group. Why is it that you feel the need to make me belong to your culture?

I'm a bit odd, I guess, because I feel this way about culture in general. Culture is mostly a destructive, discriminating force, that has started wars and cost countless lives. Which is why I hesitate at most cultural ideas and memes.
 

Baghram

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Am I the only one that read all of this without even understanding what he is talking about? Generally I'm quick on the uptake but this time the entire article just made me go: 'What the fuck am I reading? What does he want to point out, what does he want to solve and how does he want to solve it?'

And I'm still wondering exactly that. Let's see if I got this right. Geek guys got marginalised decades ago so now they use that marginalisation to play the victim and justify bad behaviour of their own and this needs to stop?

Well, duh. Yes it needs to stop, because that's obviously not okay. Did that need 3 pages of a lot of high strung words to be said?

What am I missing here?
 

Aardvaarkman

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ccdohl said:
I don't know if I can take someone seriously when they are inspired by a column that conjures up a concept like Gay Male Privilege. I mean, are you out of your mind?
It seems pretty reasonable to me. There are plenty of gay men who do exhibit tendencies of social privilege, that they are able to break social boundaries while others are not.

I mean, I'm no expert, but my guess is that gay guys are probably a little bit annoyed at straight women in their bars because the gay guys are not at the bar to meet female friends, and those ladies are taking up space that could be taken up by attractive men.
I've been to plenty of gay bars as a straight man, along with straight women, gay women and gay guys, and it's never been a problem. It's kind of insulting to suggest that "they" can't stand diversity in their social gatherings.

Turn it on its head. Would men in "straight bars" be justified in complaining about the presence of gay men or lesbians infringing on their space? If anything, other straight men being in a bar is often seen as competition.

... or the women who want to show up and be welcomed anywhere and everywhere?
What the hell? That sounds a lot like a chip on your shoulder, and could be viewed even less charitably than that. How dare these women want to go to places to have fun?

And part of enjoying the geek stuff has always been that it was not mainstream.
That sounds more like hipsters than geeks to me.

As someone with non-mainstream tastes, I would have loved more people being into the same thing. I didn't get off on the exclusivity of it at all.

Those people don't necessarily have a love for the team itself, but for winning, so they jump on the bandwagon, which really annoys the fans who were following the team when they were losing.
That sounds just as superficial as the bandwagon-jumpers.

Or again, hipsters who are upset that the band they liked when it was obscure, suddenly becomes cool. If you really like the music/sport/hobby, then why is it a bad thing when other people do to? What are you trying to achieve by wanting it to be exclusive?
 

Aardvaarkman

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Big_Willie_Styles said:
Bob seems to gloss over the period in our lives where being a nerd hurts us, when we're in school. The psychological (and occasionally physical) scars that nerds leave school with can continue on for decades afterwards. This is what makes nerds feel marginalized. Having Bob tell them, "Hey, relax, the movies coming out right now totally cater to you!" doesn't make up for the wedgies, beatings, and relentless taunting.
I think Bob's objection is not that nerds haven't been traumatised, but that some people's solution to that seems to be to use their new-found privilege against others in exclusionary and insulting ways.

In what way does insulting women who are interested in nerdy things a solution to the trauma you went through? Parts of "geek culture" seem to embrace revenge-fantasy against people who had nothing to do with the trauma involved. If you suffered from trauma, seek counselling, or deal with it in whatever way works for you. As long as that's not taking it out on other people.

Honest question:

What would make up for all the beatings and taunting for you?
 

Gary Thompson

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Scrumpmonkey said:
Look, Bob. I was never bullied in high-school, I've always had friends and aside from moving into the world of 'adult friends' i.e. people you like to see but can only see occasionally because of work/relationships/home/obligations, I've never really felt that much of an outsider. In fact it's only in the last couple of years it's really really hit me there are people who DON'T share my admittedly middle class set of experiences.

I don't have that idea that i am some-how an outsider. I've always had like-minded people to talk to. These ideas of the "Shared Geek experience", "Persecution mindset" and "Nice guy culture" are pretty alien to me. To put it differently; nerds have always been accepted for a large sub-section of my generation. We didn't feel like nerds because it was never really brought up.

Maybe it's more of an extension of not having the same cultural touch-stones as the US does (or as horrible state school system). There is a very British tradition of eccentricity and the lording of the maverick that dates back to the Victorians. Maybe it's also a extension of the traditional class system where a good education and intelligence were seen as evidence of being of higher status or that technically minded people have been lauded as an extension of British greatness for decades.

Hell the 1980s saw a massive boom in the bedroom coder and cheap personal, programmable computers. Even at that time being 15 and coding a videogame was actually something pretty cool to do. British culture just isn't as afraid of intelligence as classic American culture was.
I will attest that in my experiences in American high school were not very well conducive to "know it all" types (me being one of them) and eccentricities.

People will laugh with you, but they wont really like you for it (unless they were the pot heads, who were my friends, because they were kinda weird and entertaining), it's mostly we had to either act like we didn't care or be disruptive.

Do people in the UK really like eccentric people? I know British TV has quite a few eccentric characters, which was why I always liked it.
 

Baghram

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DANGER- MUST SILENCE said:
Baghram said:
Well, duh. Yes it needs to stop, because that's obviously not okay. Did that need 3 pages of a lot of high strung words to be said?
Yes. Judging by the reaction here, it needs way more than 3 pages. It needs more like 1000.

What am I missing here?
What you're missing is that nearly every time there is a case of geek groups bullying someone who lacks privilege, members of the geek community invariably build a shildburhs around the bully and insist not only are they not a bully, but that they can't be a bully and that anyone who finds fault with them must be the actual bully. We can't have discussions about when members of the geek community act less than morally because every time we try, someone tries to derail it with appeals false victimhood. I mean, Sarkeesian anyone? People are still making up lies to discredit her without bothering to address any of her actual ideas.

And that's why Bob needed 3 pages. Because the message isn't getting through.
But do you think this article will change those people's minds? I think this is dying out on it's own without us having to actively deal with it because 'geeks' simply aren't as marginalised anymore. So they can't or have no reason to play the victim. Just let the 'geek groups' that persist in this sort of behaviour die out on their own.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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ccdohl said:
Okay you're right. Nobody's feelings are justified except women who feel that they are unwelcome in places or subcultures.
Eh, what? Who exactly are you talking about?

You really aren't making a lot of sense here. Literally, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

I didn't mention anything about the justification of people's feelings, and I'm not sure who these women are that you seem to have a problem with.
 

Phanixis

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I wasn't even aware there was such a thing as "Geek Privilege" or that Geeks as a group ever demanded special treatment, especially as I would be hard pressed to consider Geeks some sort of homogeneous group with common needs and demands. They are just people that are considered somewhat strange or weird because of social skills, hobbies, interest, etc. I think treating them as a minority group is a mistake, as they are really just a random collection of people. Then again, I find the whole dividing people into black/white/male/female/gay/straight/christian/atheist/etc and fussing over who gets what privileges and who is screwing who repulsive and contemptible to begin with, so I am hardly eager to invent another minority group.

Besides, almost everything discussed here seems to deal with Hollywood's dramatized depiction of geeks, which is likely to be about as accurate as their depiction of anything else. The problem Bob is pointing out is likely just the poor characterization of geeky characters by writers, and not the attitudes of some non-existent geek minority group.
 

Dexter S. Bateman

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The fact that the 'geek world' still almost collectively hyperventilates whenever any sort of female or feminist issues raised in relation to geek culture demonstrates why such an article is relevant and, frankly, needed. It's not just about the outright loonies harassing Anita Sarkeesian - it's about all the ones who spread the rumours, and went out of their way to discredit her in an ad hominem fashion; it's about the fact that for some reason there's a huge number of geeks who feel threatened when people want to take away or merely criticise their 'right' to ogle booth babes; it's the diseased and viral notions of the nice guy/friend zone that plague these communities and fora; it's the fact that women criticising geek culture for being male-centric are made out to desire nothing more than the complete reformation of geek culture into a Sex and the City knockoff where Samantha wears glasses; it's the peddling of sexist stereotypes as memes and punchlines unto themselves. And all of that is just a part of when dealing with geek culture's attitudes toward women. The culture's even more prohibitive towards the concerns of other minorities, primarily for the reason that they're not even able to get on the wider agenda most of the time.
 

wulf3n

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Scrumpmonkey said:
in the UK nobody batted an eyelid, people dressing in women's clothing for comic effect was just plain old good fun whereas in the USA and especially Australia it caused a bit of a stir.
I don't think it's that big of a deal in Australia, just google Dame Edna Everage [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dame_Edna_Everage] an Australian Icon.
 

Guestyman

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Can I just say I'm sick of people who are part of subcultures that have highly visible problematic elements in their ranks just saying "Oh well they're not 'Real' X" and then assuming the problem is solved by neatly cleaving the problematic areas of your subculture away?

Yes I will admit that the neat little category of "Real X" you JUST created to exclude the people I'm talking about, by definition does not contain the people I'm talking about. That doesn't actually change anything for the better except that it might give you a flimsy pretext for ignoring the real problems in your own community.

When I make posts on my private Facebook wall calling out Gamer culture on their problems with women and minorities I do so openly as a gamer myself. And yet invariably I get swamped with defensive posts from intelligent, sensitive friends who I genuinely respect dismissing the problems as "Just the call of duty crowd" who "Aren't real gamers" As if third person shooters aren't THE most dominant genre in gaming at the moment, as if releasing one without online multiplayer isn't economic suicide to a developer, as if misogyny, racism, and homophobia NEVER occur outside of these spheres. Not the case.

Atheists: The reddit-lurking fedora-wearing dudebros are a thing. An irritating thing that we need to fix if we are EVER to be taken seriously.

Christians: Likewise, you don't get to pretend that a VAST amount of homophobia and misogyny still present in today's society can be laid at the feet of those who use YOUR religion to justify it.

Gay male culture: Misogyny, gynophobia, biphobia. You know what I'm talking about.

Feminists: TERFS are a real problem. They do exist, they are "Real" feminists, and their existence is one of the main reasons I don't identify with your movement.

There's an old saying of shaky attribution about evil triumphing when good men do nothing that hardly bares repeating, but I will anyway because I believe the cowardice of silent complicity is quite literally the biggest reason we have bad stuff in the world today. The attitude of "Those people aren't my problem" is a cause for so many societal ills from rape culture to poverty and in this day and age.

It's what allows every discussion about how our screwed up attitudes to gender relations and sexuality have created an epidemic of sexual assault to be derailed by some idiot talking about false accusations.
It's what allows gay men to sit around talking about how not being sexually attracted to a woman makes it somehow okay to call them bitches and sluts.
It's what allows the Australian Christian Lobby to claim to speak for the vast majority of Christians who don't share their views.
It's what allows online gaming to be a hotbed of anti-gay slurs and rape threats.

When you see these people and say "They're not a 'real' part of my subculture and therefore I don't have to deal with them" you let them flourish. You are seeing a vegetable patch overrun by weeds and instead of picking them out, you are giving them their own little corner of the patch in which to flourish.

I'm not asking for much, just drop the avoidance. Stop looking at a situation where other people are being victimised and immediately wondering if I'm being fair to YOU.

When I say our subculture has a problem with women, minorities or just bad behaviour in general, I'm not accusing you of being like that. I'm not blaming you for the people who are. All I'm saying is that your subcultures are problematic, my subcultures are problematic, and only when we acknowledge this can we even begin to try to address it.
 

wulf3n

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Guestyman said:
When I say our subculture has a problem with women, minorities or just bad behaviour in general, I'm not accusing you of being like that. I'm not blaming you for the people who are. All I'm saying is that your subcultures are problematic, my subcultures are problematic, and only when we acknowledge this can we even begin to try to address it.
Only when we try to address it will we begin actually trying to address it. At the moment all that gets done is to try and pass around blame.

Saying "x" sub-culture has a problem does nothing but antagonize those within that culture who aren't a part of the problem, distracting from the issue at hand.

Most people are aware that there are certain problematic people that identify as part of their group, and do all they can within the constraints of the law to stop it, so when people are constantly pointing it out thinking that they're enlightening people, of course the response is going to be defensive.