On Geek Privilege

[Kargathia]

I have always despited a good portions of sports calling them testosterone-fueled battle surrogates

I fail to see how sports being testosterone-fueled battle surrogates is a derisive description. I mean, I got my nerd credentials in order and all, but I definitely do enjoy punching people in the face on a regular basis. Preferably without Assault & Battery charges.

But... back on topic.

Nerd "culture" as a thing is quite frankly completely detached from its original inspiration: socially inept loners fascinated by something more niche than alcohol consumption and sexual intercourse.
Which is not a bad thing (I do love the glasses), but it does mean that it should be treated as such.

It's a social group and subculture. No more, no less. What happens "in" it is given shape by individuals who identify as such. Those individuals are also personally responsible if they act like twits, and give the whole group a bad name.
One should occasionally ask himself: "is this dickmove not a dickmove, solely because I identify with subculture ?". Rather overwhelmingly often, the answer is going to be a "No".

That said, cross-subculture interaction is always going to be tiresome. eg. Gamers inevitably make equally preposterous assumptions about Middle Aged Grownups (or whatever the hell I should call them) as said Grownups do whenever the latest flavour of GTA is derided as a beacon and academy for all behaviour vile and abhorrent in the next generation.
Same goes for pretty much any other combination of subcultures. Apathy breeds ignorance, ignorance breeds misconceptions, misconceptions breed abuse.

 

[KazeAizen]

Also, Bob, the deplorable behavior you described is not done by true nerds and geeks. They're done by douchebags.

The two are not mutually exclusive. It's tempting to want to denounce the worst parts of a community/movement/whatever as "not true" members, but it's just not true all the time.

Believe me, I should know, I'm a feminist. I radically disagree with the minority who actually do have a problem with men and make the rest of us look bad, but no amount of me saying they're "not real feminists" will make that true.

There's an ugly side to pretty much every community.

And sadly, speaking in nerd terms here, they level up faster than the good ones in a way. They are more vocal than the good members and thus they get more attention than the good members. Therefore the negatives are seen more than the positives. The ugly side cheats and gets that lvl 100 Charizard with psychic, fireblast and what have you while we have to find a way with dealing with it without cheating. Which is not impossible but its dang dang hard. If there could be these mass "positive" movements on the internet. Like all at once to just shut down the misogynists and all those bad seeds or at least deal them a crippling blow somehow. However that's impossible.

 

[grigjd3]

I get really tired of the idea of "nerd culture". I studied as a physicist and I've worked as post-docs in science before landing a job at a strong if niche tech-company. I would never deny that I am extremely privileged. My wife and I live in a large nice house. We have good cars. We're in terrific financial shape. I go to a job where people respect me, my efforts are recognized and the work is rewarding. None of this has anything to do with Steve Urkel or Big Bang Theory. Those are crap television shows pandering to some ridiculous views of those who've never been on the inside of technology and science.

I like Dungeons and Dragons, video games, many board games, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars and many other so called nerd things. Simultaneously, I don't care for comic books, My Little Pony or 90% of anything made by Joss Whedan. Yes, Firefly, The Avengers and the Sing Along were good but I find the rest uninteresting. Of course, that I posses some of these interests means that there is some assumption that I belong with everyone else who likes anything in this categorization. This seems to ignore that I also like beer, football, cars, stereo equipment and many other things not associated with "nerd culture".

I've gone through this rant because the problems with "nerd culture" have absolutely nothing to do with anything that is associated with being a nerd. The problem resides with people who think they possess perfect knowledge of what is good and assume that everyone else should be interested in what they are interested in. "If you don't see why Babylon V is awesome and Star Trek is lame, then you just don't get it."

The sad nerd who expresses his self-perceived superiority over others for his perfect knowledge of every book in Vampire: The Masquerade is no different than the sad jock who refuses to stop living like he did when playing high school football. By refusing to move forward with their lives, both individuals have failed to become more than they previously were. They've both stagnated and become rotten. I don't want any association with either of these people. I do want to associate with people who grow and learn and can teach me things. That doesn't make me a nerd. It makes me successful. If anyone thinks that being a nerd entitles them to poor behavior, then I find that sad, moreover pitiable. I feel sorry for such a person.

 

[Raikas]

I was on board through the part pointing out that comparing geekdom to some actually marginalized group status is beyond unpleasant, but part of the point of that - at least as I see it - is that "geek", in the consumer group sense is exactly that - a consumer group. So the notion of geek privilege as something separate from say, the class privilege that a subgroup based on consumption must have is still a little iffy for me.

Although maybe it was a roundabout way of pointing out the class issue? Not the impression I came away with though.

 

[Guestyman]

When I say our subculture has a problem with women, minorities or just bad behaviour in general, I'm not accusing you of being like that. I'm not blaming you for the people who are. All I'm saying is that your subcultures are problematic, my subcultures are problematic, and only when we acknowledge this can we even begin to try to address it.

Only when we try to address it will we begin actually trying to address it. At the moment all that gets done is to try and pass around blame.

Saying "x" sub-culture has a problem does nothing but antagonize those within that culture who aren't a part of the problem, distracting from the issue at hand.

Most people are aware that there are certain problematic people that identify as part of their group, and do all they can within the constraints of the law to stop it, so when people are constantly pointing it out thinking that they're enlightening people, of course the response is going to be defensive.

I make no apologies for in addition to trying to solve problems, continuing to point them out until they're solved so people don't feel free to sweep them under the rug. If people realise that they're actually going to have to keep dealing with the issue until it is solved, and they're sick of dealing with the issue, it might motivate them to solve it.

 

[wulf3n]

I make no apologies for in addition to trying to solve problems, continuing to point them out until they're solved so people don't feel free to sweep them under the rug. If people realise that they're actually going to have to keep dealing with the issue until it is solved, and they're sick of dealing with the issue, it might motivate them to solve it.

The problem here is few are actually trying to "sweep the problem under the rug" they just don't like having what they identify to be their culture blamed for actions that aren't inherent to that culture. And every time the issue is brought up in that way actual attempts at resolving the issue grind to a halt so we can bicker on the finer points of what "geek culture" is.

 

[Something Amyss]

Also, Bob, the deplorable behavior you described is not done by true nerds and geeks. They're done by douchebags. WORLD of difference.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Therefore, there's not really a world of difference.

 

[wulf3n]

Also, Bob, the deplorable behavior you described is not done by true nerds and geeks. They're done by douchebags. WORLD of difference.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Therefore, there's not really a world of difference.

The question is whether or not behaviour in question is a result of the culture.

Just because there are nerds/geeks who are douche bags does not mean the culture itself cultivates douche bags. To say the culture has a problem is to imply it's the culture that encourages these behaviours.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Bob seems to gloss over the period in our lives where being a nerd hurts us, when we're in school. The psychological (and occasionally physical) scars that nerds leave school with can continue on for decades afterwards. This is what makes nerds feel marginalized. Having Bob tell them, "Hey, relax, the movies coming out right now totally cater to you!" doesn't make up for the wedgies, beatings, and relentless taunting.

I think Bob's objection is not that nerds haven't been traumatised, but that some people's solution to that seems to be to use their new-found privilege against others in exclusionary and insulting ways.

In what way does insulting women who are interested in nerdy things a solution to the trauma you went through? Parts of "geek culture" seem to embrace revenge-fantasy against people who had nothing to do with the trauma involved. If you suffered from trauma, seek counselling, or deal with it in whatever way works for you. As long as that's not taking it out on other people.

Honest question:

What would make up for all the beatings and taunting for you?

Well, it would begin with 2 words: I'm sorry.

Yeah, yeah, simplistic, I know, but it's the larger point. To make that point, I'd like to go over something from work. I do biweekly payroll for about a hundred people. It's detailed work in a short time frame so I ask not to be disturbed. Somehow by boss never hears this and just walks into my office without knocking and expects me to drop what I'm doing and deal with his issue, no matter how minor. I've addressed this with him, and it never sticks, so I developed a very bad mood about it, which got me a reprimand from that same boss for having that bad mood. Think about this: I got crap for being angry, by the man making me angry, for things I have told him make me angry and asked him to stop. Some people just have their head up their ass so far they can't comprehend how they're treating others, and that that can come back to them.

Transfer this to the topic at hand, and well, look at the position. Even ignoring anyone thick enough to have been a bully now expecting acceptance from a victim, or someone that turned a blind eye to bullying, we still have a lot of people that don't seem to feel those traumatized even have a right to be mad, or scared, or whatever. WE have to "get over it" or "seek counseling" because, what's the alternative? Show compassion? Be understanding as the healing goes on? Act in some way shape or form that we have the right to the emotions we have, even if they aren't convenient for you? Nah, fuck that shit, I only want to care about myself and expect everyone to act how I expect them to act no matter how they feel.

AS I said about, mixing the new crowd with the old guard was going to be rough, but we took the wrong path to make it happen. Instead of building bridges and trying to mend some very broken people, things ran very quickly to vilification, which has confused the crap out of me because I don't see how making someone the bad guy is going to make them more friendly to you. Hell, the attitude of "your wants, your feelings, your concerns: all are worthless in the name of my wants and feelings" is very dehumanizing, only entrenching the anger already there. I've reached the point where, I can say it isn't vengeance for childhood. I'm legitimately mad at people that act like my emotions are there to please them, and am now starting to wonder if this is all still about the bullies versus the bullied, but people just expecting certain behaviors, attitudes and values from people (regardless of how they actually act) on one side, and people that resent having such things dictated to them (with no consideration to themselves) on the other.

 

[Guestyman]

Also, Bob, the deplorable behavior you described is not done by true nerds and geeks. They're done by douchebags. WORLD of difference.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Therefore, there's not really a world of difference.

The question is whether or not behaviour in question is a result of the culture.

Just because there are nerds/geeks who are douche bags does not mean the culture itself cultivates douche bags. To say the culture has a problem is to imply it's the culture that encourages these behaviours.

I'm going to come out and say it then. I think that the problem with Geek Culture, such as it is, is not that there are douchebags in it, but that it fosters douchebag behaviour. I've never been one to criticise a culture simply because there are bad people in it. I would never get any rest that way because there is NO culture that doesn't have bad people in it.

When I say Gaming culture has a problem with women and minorities I mean that it allows douchebaggery to flourish unchallenged, that pointing it out engenders a knee jerk response to derail and sweep the issue under the carpet, and that this is one of the prime reasons that douchebaggery is such a huge problem in our community. The culture has a problem in that when it sees people being marginalised and harassed its immediate response is not to help the marginalised and harassed people, but to instantly try and find a way to make it either not a real problem, or if they can't accomplish that, to at least make it not *their* problem. What I referred to before as the cowardice of silent complicity.

 

[wulf3n]

I'm going to come out and say it then. I think that the problem with Geek Culture, such as it is, is not that there are douchebags in it, but that it fosters douchebag behaviour. I've never been one to criticise a culture simply because there are bad people in it. I would never get any rest that way because there is NO culture that doesn't have bad people in it.

When I say Gaming culture has a problem with women and minorities I mean that it allows douchebaggery to flourish unchallenged, that pointing it out engenders a knee jerk response to derail and sweep the issue under the carpet, and that this is one of the prime reasons that douchebaggery is such a huge problem in our community. The culture has a problem in that when it sees people being marginalised and harassed its immediate response is not to help the marginalised and harassed people, but to instantly try and find a way to make it either not a real problem, or if they can't accomplish that, to at least make it not *their* problem. What I referred to before as the cowardice of silent complicity.

Everyones experience is different and all that, but I see the complete opposite. It's rare for me to see an instance of douchebaggery that isn't called out and ostracized. And this is while playing predominantly CoD4 and BF3.

The notion of people trying to hide from the "issue" is something that to me appears to be perpetuated by gaming journalism alone.

 

[Guestyman]

Everyones experience is different and all that, but I see the complete opposite. It's rare for me to see an instance of douchebaggery that isn't called out and ostracized. And this is while playing predominantly CoD4 and BF3.

The notion of people trying to hide from the "issue" is something that to me appears to be perpetuated by gaming journalism alone.

As you said, everyone's experience is different, and as such I honestly don't mean any offence or condescension when I say this, (and I hope you don't take it as such because you seem to be a pretty cool/intelligent person) but that runs counter to the lived experience of a lot of people, myself included.

 

[Kuredan]

I always find it interesting that when people say "check your privilege, that the fault is almost implicitly pinned on the "privileged" party. It's never "check their disadvantage" which to me seems a heck of a lot more useful; when we do this we see the problem and can then solve it. Enough with demonizing people for factors outside their control, whether it's where they are born or their socio-ecomic status or even their gender and ethnicity. Focus instead on the inequalities for those not born to these "privileged" positions and figure out a way to elevate them, give them the same opportunities. The solution isn't to tear those in "privilege" down, it's to build those who are disadvantaged up until there is no privilege and we all have an equal shot. The robbing of Peter to pay Paul doesn't actually foster growth in either the material or ephemeral sense and it's a sentiment that's as naive as say... someone who doesn't realize their privilege.

I firmly believe that these "ist" responses in geek culture, while totally wrong, are a product of the misanthropy that caused people to become geeks in the first place. For many of us, our discovering of geek culture was a result of failing to fit into "normal" culture. We looked for alternatives and found like-minded individuals interested in esoteric hobbies. Many of us had faced bullying and ostracism and had found a place to call our own or indeed a place to share our interests. As our culture began to broaden and intersect with "normal" culture, we began to attract more "normal" people to our weird little club. Rather than being welcoming, in opposition to the "unwelcoming" we received, our culture lashed out to these changes with elitism, snobbery, and downright mean-spirited malignancy. It's the wrong way to go; we shouldn't be treating others as we have been treated, but it's a very human thing to do. A little bit of power, a little bit of privilege and we all become the jerks who harassed us out for a chance at revenge. My solution: let's just be excellent to each other. It's all good, we're one big party: the more the merrier.

 

[mecegirl]

When I first started to interact with other geeks on the internet back in middle school things were a lot different. It didn't take long for me to find out that I shouldn't mention my gender or race at all. So long as people on mainstream sites thought that I was a dude I wouldn't get random racist or sexist comments sent my way. Things have gotten a lot better since then, but back then I just didn't feel like dealing with it. I already had to deal with being an outsider because of my hobbies in real life. I wasn't "Black" enough because I liked geeky things. I was too "Black" because I have a darker skin tone. And since my current figure hadn't developed yet I wasn't "feminine" enough. So when I see people using the bulling they received for being a geek as an excuse I have no sympathy. None. It gives them no excuse to be bullies themselves. I'm not the girl who ignored you in school so why should I have to deal with the resentment?

I found majority female spaces on the internet and was able to enjoy my hobbies without having to hide who I am. I stuck to places like Livejournal and Fanfiction.net. A lot of the girls I met had similar experiences as mine and didn't feel that it was worth bothering with mainstream spaces. It's probably why geeky spaces are still self segregated now. Being older has helped me navigate male dominated spaces better, and overall a lot of the overt sexism and racism has been weeded out. But back then I simply needed escapism, a space where I wouldn't be judged for superficial shit. And mainstream geekdom was, and in some ways still, not that space.

 

[Odoylerules360]

Anyone who says "Patriarchy" unironically has their head up their a$$ and/or v@&%#a.

MODS: I apologize, but excessively "safe" spaces give bad ideas the chance to flourish when they really ought to be squashed.

Less succintly: Many of the ideas, theories, whatevers in both Bob's piece and 'Gay Male Privilege' can only come about in intellectual echochambers, often created by stifling dissent, because dissent tends to be offensive. Disregarding something because it's offensive prevents you from seeing any of its underlying meaning.

 

[Funyahns]

This conversation seems pointless. I don't get to act a certain way towards certain people because of what I am. I get to treat them a certain way because of mutual feelings for one another. I know girls at work I can smack on the ass who like that sort of thing in a fun way. Doesn't mean that everyone else can do the same thing to them, that is a certain level of friendship that we have built over time. Not well he is a nerd so he is safe, or he is gay so its a joke. No its because they know me and I know them. Actual relationships with people not some phony idea based off of what you saw on television.

 

[Mysnomer]

What you're missing is that nearly every time there is a case of geek groups bullying someone who lacks privilege, members of the geek community invariably build a shildburhs around the bully and insist not only are they not a bully, but that they can't be a bully and that anyone who finds fault with them must be the actual bully. We can't have discussions about when members of the geek community act less than morally because every time we try, someone tries to derail it with appeals false victimhood. I mean, Sarkeesian anyone? People are still making up lies to discredit her without bothering to address any of her actual ideas.

Yes, all those made up lies, like video evidence from her own presentations. Instead they should be addressing her ground-breaking thesis behind TvWiVG: Mario and Zelda are nostalgic retreads that stick to a formula. Video games (which don't influence the real world when it comes to violence) influence the real world when it comes to women. Female characters can't be stereotypically weak, but if they are strong and fight their way to a solution they are just male leads with breasts. Women shouldn't be singled out, this is about equality; but it's a failure of the developers to give male and females the same experience when you can select your gender.

Look, if you want to take a stand, pick a foundation that won't crumble underneath you, like Sarkeesian. As for "addressing her ideas," there are lengthy videos more well researched than anything she has ever produced. She has only accomplished something if her plan was a Code Geass-esque gambit to draw attention to the rational cream rising to the top to combat her malarkey. A vaccine against hyperbole and using polarized groups to artificially skip the rational discourse part of putting an idea forward.

Finally, we must remember the great Isaac Newton: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Would the backlash against Sarkeesian be as strong if she had not been canonized by websites like our very own Escapist? Reaction is strong because the disappointment with her actual output is proportional to how she was built up.

Throw in the towel, she's not worth defending.

To say that "geek culture" is in any meaningful way suffering under the boot-heels of the mainstream "bullies" is to ignore Hollywood, TV and the publishing industry alternately bending over backwards to revive and invigorate every sliver of nerd-adjacent intellectual property and finding new ways to assure (white, male, middle-to-upper-class) nerds how awesome and meaningful they and theirs are considered.

I know, right? Isn't it great to be fed bull**** by marketing suits telling you how awesome you are? I should be satisfied by this pseudo-approval from society at large. Guess what, Bob, if you want to support Social Justice and Critical Race theory, then why aren't you raging against Hollywood and the "Mainstream" for appropriating Geek Culture and trying to sell it back to us in MLP t-shirts from Hot Topic? Oh, I'm sorry, is my analogy drawing parallels between racial issues and subculture issues offensive because we haven't had "real" suffering? There's a lot of double standards in this column. I guess this post should be condemned as an insensitive work of racism because I dared to compare the plight of a group supposedly composed of mostly whites to black people. Your praise of Nukem High for heavy-handed social messages is hypocritical when Revenge of the Nerds could easily be framed as "Bullying creates a situation in which someone is treated as inferior for belonging to a certain group, similar to racism." And I'm sure if it served your point, you would have framed it that way.

Honestly, I think the harm of appropriation is pretty much BS. Do marketers excise and package aspects of populations and then sell these stereotypes? Yes, but it's hardly some grand scheme to sabotage or diminish said people, it's business. The only problem comes when the world at large fails to think logically about making sweeping generalization based on the offensive stereotype harmless caricature that adorns their cereal box (or whatever). Corporate suits and soulless moneygrubbers are synonymous at this point, there's no surprises here. Does this actively harm the "appropriated" individuals? Only if people believe them, and in a world where you cannot be silenced, where access to the floor is not restricted by age, gender, wealth, or education*, I find it hard to swallow that the negative impact of appropriation cannot be overcome by providing examples of humanity in all colors and sub-cultures. Vilifying the suit is meaningless, he still rakes money in hand-over-fist, and won't change his ways. Vilifying the people he markets to won't create true change either, it just fosters guilt and an inequality in the other direction.

*The disabled may have some grounds for complaint b/c special equipment is needed that they might not be able to access at a public library (though I'm sure a good librarian would help out blind or those without fingers to type)