On Kinect and PlayStation Move

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JohnSmith

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Jan 19, 2009
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Just one thought I had for kinect, that might be relevant to making games more immersive; what if an option was added to FPS such that about 10-20 degrees of camera freedom was controlled by you moving your head given the tech specs of kinect it should be able to accomplish it admirably. That way auto-aim and the lack of precision in console games become relics of the past at the same time. Also properly used gesture and voice support could make for a very immersive sci-fi RTS simply make the interface as if you are the general in the war room manipulating units and such on reactive holographic table (like the RUSE trailer all though cooler). Aside from those two ideas though I can see what you mean about motion control being less immersive.
 

kosamae

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Sep 12, 2008
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There's one thing that I think most people are missing with Playstation Move that I'm looking forward too - shooters.
The biggest flaw with console shooters, at the moment, is aiming with the right analog stick. If game developers can effectively use Move to track where I'm actually aiming (probably with a tiny bit of jitter correction), I honestly think it could revolutionize how we play shooters on a console.
They key is immersion. Motion controls used properly can enhance immersion, used improperly they kill it.
I, for one, am really looking forward to playing RE5 with Move.
 

solidstatemind

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Nov 9, 2008
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Well-thought-out and well-written. And I'm not just saying that because I have refractive error in my right eye, so 'stereoscopic 3D' means jack-shit to me: the analogy of the dismay of classic movie critics who bemoan the sacrifice of content and quality for cheap parlor tricks is very legitimate.
 

MGlBlaze

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Oct 28, 2009
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I agree about the whole motion controls thing. Even with outdated graphics, just having to do small movements is several orders of magnitude more immersive than current graphics with motion controls. All well and good for a bit of fun, but for a serious experience it's a deal breaker. I can think of many of my Wii games (And I'm sure many others can as well) that would be so much better if it could just have a normal controller.
The Wii is the only system this generation that has failed to get my heart pounding from some kind of suspense. And I don't even like the 360 all that much.

As for the 3DS, the jury's out on this one if you ask me. I'll just wait and see.
 

GonzoGamer

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Apr 9, 2008
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I think the whole draw for the motion control is that it's supposed to be a more intuitive alternative for non-gamers who are bamboozled by the xbox/ps controllers with their dozen buttons and multiple sticks. These are people who's last game was probably played with one stick and one button.
The stupid thing is that they're coming out with this stuff two years after Nintendo already saturated that market.

AND
I love that word: Tosspot. What is a tosspot anyway? Is it what I think it is: a pot that one would toss-off/ejaculate into?
 

Gormers1

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Apr 9, 2008
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Trying to make games immersive always == making controls as 1-to-1/responsive as possible?
 

AncientYoungSon

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Jun 17, 2009
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The only silver lining to this entire motion-control nonsense is this: everyone I know who bought a Wii doesn't use it anymore. All of the casual/non-gamers who bought the thing because it was popular to own are letting it gather dust right now (Wii Dust).

What percentage of these people would go out and buy a Wii2? When the Wii2 ads start showing up, most of these people are going to glance at the dust-covered Wii sitting on their home entertainment center and I don't think they'll be terribly keen on going out to buy another one.
 

gardyna

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Jun 7, 2010
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the thing wich makes morion controls so popular is that they are simple and anyone can potentialy pick up and play (the point of console gaming) any motion control game without having to use a tutorial stage. I see his point on the shortest time between thought and action but for newer gamers it sometimes goes like this: thought --> remembering which button does the action --> pushing the button --> action so for newer gamers i think that motion controls are a great way to get easily into the hobby

p.s. from my standpoint i think the Move i better than natal (the new name is just silly) becouse it has something to grab onto so there is the potential to imitate something and for that reason it could be pretty hard to do anything but extremely casual/gimmicky games where you are basicaly clutching at thin air or flailing around like you got insect crawling around on your body with natal (natal isn´t a much better name than kinect is it huh?)
 

Pebkio

The Purple Mage
Nov 9, 2009
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I think the biggest problem I have with motion controls is that they remove a lot of ways to have input with a game.

NES controllers had 4 directions (not limited by the hardware) and 2 buttons to interract with the enviroment (usually jump and attack... or attack and use item).

A typical next-gen console controller has 360 directions (maybe more and not limited by hardware) and 12 buttons for more specific intereaction (Halo: Shoot, shoot a different way, pick up a weapon/activate car or turret or console, use special item,, pick up a second weapon, switch weapon, throw grenade, use light, crouch, zoom, hit something, jump, etc, etc...).

The Wiimote (and now Playstation Move). Has 360 degreee movement (not limited by the harware but adversly affected), and up to 8 ways to interract with the enviroment (Buttons A-B-1-2-Z-C, point, and use item). The use item thing is the biggest feature, because you can use the item in many different ways, but it's still just "use item".

Kinect... has maybe 4 directions (limited by hardware) and perhaps 4 ways to interract with the game (use item, pick up item, open door, and attack). Yes yes, your avatar goes into whatever goofy shape you're in; so let's just make games based on all the goofy shapes you can be in, I can just feel the innovation in my gut.

The controls might be interesting for a computer that you hook up to the big screen though... Okay, yeah, Kinect is actually innovtion for computer input that replaces the mouse and they're just beta testing it on the Xbox. Kinect would be the first step towards that computer you saw in Minority Report.

However, unless you can make a kinect controller be able to reliably cover an entire warehouse... and then maybe a bunch of people in the warehouse... then have the game projected over everyone and everything... and give that game substance... and... holy crap! That's a holodeck.
 

foxtrot3100

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Mar 8, 2010
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I have to disagree with Yahtzee. I think there are two kinds of immersion: Matrix-head-plug and star trek holo-deck, where your own physical body is placed in a simulated world. Imagine being Link, a jedi, or [insert favorite sword wielding character] and fighting their archenemies with your own hands. This is the direction motion controls are heading.

Now, granted, in the end the matrix-type immersion will win out b/c you're avatar will not be limited by your physical limits (or physics themselves). But beyond actually connecting your brain and eyes with wires to the game, I don't see anyway to further that kind of immersion. That kind of technology is in the works, but it is sluggish at best.
 

Pebkio

The Purple Mage
Nov 9, 2009
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So... the two different systems lead to two different ways of playing?

Motion Controls lead to the holodeck?
...while...
Button Controls lead to direct input?

Taken to those extremes, you can tell which one of those will be for hardcore gamers and which is for casual gamers. I've always said that I don't like games that get too realistic.

Holodeck:
My body cannot jump six miles into the air and land on an air-ship. Even if I could, I probably woulnd't be able to pull off a six-button special combo to bring the whole thing down with a sword. Also, my control of magic would be imprecise and wouldn't feel like I'm actually reaching into my soul and pulling out a lightning bolt.

It can also be used to train your body.

Matrix:
Everything is translated to input censors in your brain... which is exactly how it's already done in real life. But a computer can tell your brain that you can direct electricity through your hand or that you can fly. Also... the computer can give you the exact time of day when you think about it and can also have you think about the time when needed. If you're particularly lazy... it can also MAKE you feel like not playing the game anymore and maybe go to sleep for work tomorrow.

This leads open to being able to train your mind so that you're less lazy, feel the need to eat better and excercise... etc...

---

I vote for more of a matrixy form of gaming.
 

MrNelg

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Nov 20, 2009
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I actually found the Wii motion control thing more immersive than the regular control pad, but I did find that I got worn out more quickly, and I ended up playing not as much as I used to. I do believe that when we're all old and Gray and we do finally have the whole "VR" thing working, that motion control will be viewed as having been a complete failure but a step in the right direction.
 

Rakor

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Mar 9, 2010
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well, if the wii shows that the controller based motion stuff works
the move is pretty much the same thing....but with hd graphics

who knows if they'll do it right, i'm still not buying a ps3 till i need a cheap blu ray player
 

ph0b0s123

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Jul 7, 2010
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I actually think that controls for computer games have been going backwards for a while now. That is because the world is now ruled by consoles and console owners are forced to use joypads to play certain types of games which joypads are not suited to. Unfortunately that type of game is the most popular type, FPS.

This is not a dig at joypads or consoles. Joypads as a general controller are very good and can do a great job for most games types, driving games, plane games etc. But for FPS and RTS games they are shocking as controllers. They are nowhere close to the accuracy of a mouse. And yes people can use them to a high level for aiming, but until someone wins a game championship using a joypad in an FPS vs others using mice, I won't be convinced joypads are better.

So why bring this up. Well I think Microsoft and Sony would have been better served trying to workout how to bring mouse like accuracy into their controllers rather than spending so much on in accurate and laggy motion controllers. I don't understand console makers hatred of the mouse. They allow you to use other controllers that fit the game you are playing, like wheel controllers for driving games. Why not a mouse controller for FPS. I know one reason was that they wanted to differentiate consoles from PC's. Well that was a good argument when consoles just played games and did not play movies or allow you to surf the internet. I make no bones about the consoles having won as far as popularity vs PC. So why not take the one thing PC's are better at, before it dies as a gaming platform.

And before you ask I am not a fan of then having to us a keyboard for movement etc either. So a controller with an analogue thumb stick for movement and some kind or trackball or track pad for aiming would be the ideal. Or some better idea. Something that give the same functionality as the mouse and Logitech G13 combo I use for FPS and I believe is the ultimate why of controlling these games. BTW, I do own and Xbox 360 controller that I use for games like Assassins Creed etc.
 

Norman Rafferty

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Mar 18, 2009
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Okay, forgive me if someone's already posted on the topic, but there's a contradiction in the logic:

"Motion controls, meanwhile, are thought → large movement → however long it takes for the console to register that movement → action. It's not immersive, it's going in completely the opposite direction to being immersive."

If I understand this statement correctly, it would appear that your primary objection to a motion controller is that since there's a delay from when the motion is made to when the game registers the motion, the delay will prevent immersion.

This logic ignores the elephant in the room that the current controller ITSELF is ANTI-immersive. Your standard controller with X, Y, A, B, Circle, Triangle, etc. buttons and its two analog sticks and whatnot is a bewildering array of strangeness that doesn't follow intuitively. I still don't know why they don't label the buttons something that makes sense, like North-South-East-West, so I could freakin' FIND them. I'm a twenty-year veteran of video gaming, and I kept getting killed in Brutal Legend because I couldn't tell the Y button from the A button fast enough. A player loses all sense of immersion in Heavy Rain when they have to look away from the screen and down at the controller to figure out which one is the square button.

Whereas in Zelda: Twilight Princess, the motion for drawing the sword was simply to flick the Wiimote. To swing the sword later, another flick of the Wiimote. The action felt like swinging a sword at someone. It was easy to remember, and it was fun. And most of all, it was more immersive than any button press or trigger-flick.

The Wiimote does one thing better than all of its rivals -- the shooter. You yourself have said that the console-shooter can't stand up to the PC-shooter because it lacks a mouse. The Wiimote lets you point directly at your widescreen TV and plant a bullet exactly where you want it. And by definition, pointing at the screen is more immersive than pushing a little plastic puck somewhere near the screen.

The issue here is with the logic. You're arguing that motion controls are anti-immersive because your sense of immersion breaks when you want to blame the controller's lag time for your failure to accomplish something in the game. That is a valid complaint. But it's no different than a sticky button on a controller -- bad equipment is simply bad equipment. When a motion control is spot on, it's far more intuitive than "Press Y to not die". Raising a sword to block a bullet feels more real when you're raising something to block.

Granted, the current crop of motion-controlled games are far, far too gimmicky. Then again, the video game market right now is dripping with gimmickry, as the still-enduring "quick time event" is still present. (Motion-controller or button-controller, it didn't matter to Ninja Blade -- even if you pushed right, the dodge was always to the left.) As the Wii is maturing, there's a lot more shooters coming out, and the wiimote-with-analog numchuk is simply more intuitive than shooting by moving a little airplane flight stick.

The motion-controller is seen as the future because the current controller is complicated to the point of baroque ridiculousness, where only a hardcore gamer can be bothered to memorize every button. What we really need are games that work with the motion controls, instead of gimmicks that just happen to use motion controls. Oh, and more responsive motion controls wouldn't hurt, either.
 

Pebkio

The Purple Mage
Nov 9, 2009
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Norman... not playing a game since the NES and being a 20 year gamer are two very different things. We've had near a decade of Xbox controllers where the Y is the top button and the A is the bottom button. So either you're lying about being a veteran or you're an idiot with brain damage. I haven't played any playstation game for months now and I can tell you that the X button is the bottom one and the Triangle button is the top one... O to the right and Square to the left. That's been there for THREE consoles... they don't mix them up every few years. And even IF they did, you get the buttons down after two games.

Your argument for the Wiimote is based on you being an idiot.

And you don't figure out a game by what the lable of the button is anyway! You get it down pretty early in the game, and after a combined time of 5 hours, it's muscle memmory unless you only play for 5 minutes every week.

The argument against motion sensors being unimmersive is biological. To the brain, all movement is one quick electrical pulse sent to a muscle... not a quick message to a muscle that creates a movement which creates another signal for another movement, that's not a direct flow of electrical pulse. You can make the same argument against button controls... but a small twitch is more easily interpreted as just another medium for the pulse than an entirely seperate flailing of your arms.

You also get some disjointed abomination of "immersion" where your arm flailings match something on TV... but you aren't walking anywhere. You aren't really interracting with anything in the game and flailing around your living room only makes that more apparent.

Edit: Oh yeah! There is a different label system for buttons... IT'S CALLED COLORS. If you're too dense to memorize the position of shapes, they gave you COLORS to memorize instead. Granted the red O and the pink Square on PS controllers might confuse your hardwired brain. I'd insult you more but people look down on badgering the mentally disabled.
 

theklng

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May 1, 2008
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MikeTheElf said:
Games are meant to be gimmicky. They're built around capturing your attention at least long enough for one to buy it, to feed the parties involved with its production and sale. Immersion is just a bonus that everyone feels entitled to. To use an allegory: food works the same way; one can sustain oneself on food that doesn't taste good, but once one tastes more enticing food, one expects more out of all future foods. Everyone was content when 8-bit games were on the market, just as everyone was content pumping quarters into arcade machines for hours or days.

Entertainment has always been a contest as to what can hold one's attention; this results in a battle to see who can produce the nicest gimmick, game or service. This means that when one company does something that is the slightest bit profitable, all companies in the field will do the same; CDs supplanted cartridges, DVDs CDs, Blurays are apparently next. People are attracted to the shiniest object, and the Wii outsold both PS3 and 360. Motion control was naturally the next step. No one cares about innovation; they all want money.
i beg to differ.

while some may consider games mere entertainment that are ultimately gimmicky, you are forgetting that those same gimmicks lessen the attention captive period for a person. a gimmick is essentially a superfluous element intended to attract immediate attention, but failing to keep interest once discovered. examples of such would be diamonds reflecting light or racing stripes on a car.

gimmicks don't make games interesting; the rules of play and game mechanics do that. a golden controller won't make the game you play any more fun (though perhaps you will get a feeling of material accomplishment owning one).
 

MikeTheElf

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Aug 22, 2008
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theklng said:
MikeTheElf said:
Games are meant to be gimmicky. They're built around capturing your attention at least long enough for one to buy it, to feed the parties involved with its production and sale. Immersion is just a bonus that everyone feels entitled to. To use an allegory: food works the same way; one can sustain oneself on food that doesn't taste good, but once one tastes more enticing food, one expects more out of all future foods. Everyone was content when 8-bit games were on the market, just as everyone was content pumping quarters into arcade machines for hours or days.

Entertainment has always been a contest as to what can hold one's attention; this results in a battle to see who can produce the nicest gimmick, game or service. This means that when one company does something that is the slightest bit profitable, all companies in the field will do the same; CDs supplanted cartridges, DVDs CDs, Blurays are apparently next. People are attracted to the shiniest object, and the Wii outsold both PS3 and 360. Motion control was naturally the next step. No one cares about innovation; they all want money.
i beg to differ.

while some may consider games mere entertainment that are ultimately gimmicky, you are forgetting that those same gimmicks lessen the attention captive period for a person. a gimmick is essentially a superfluous element intended to attract immediate attention, but failing to keep interest once discovered. examples of such would be diamonds reflecting light or racing stripes on a car.

gimmicks don't make games interesting; the rules of play and game mechanics do that. a golden controller won't make the game you play any more fun (though perhaps you will get a feeling of material accomplishment owning one).
1- Once the game is purchased, the developer has succeeded; a game does not need to hold attention for the developer to succeed; it needs to hold attention for the game to be considered 'good.'

2- Gimmicks make the games interesting enough from a graphical or interface standpoint. For example: 3D makes people think that the game is inherently more shiny graphics-wise. Lots of people are only concerned with the lustre of their polygons, and many more won't admit that having good graphics is one of their priorities for a game. The fact of the matter is people are drawn to shinier objects, thus interest is drawn when something newer and shinier comes out. This is why HDTV is big, and this is why consoles use disc-based games as opposed to cartridge-based ones.

3- The controller actually can influence the ammount of enjoyment one gets from a game. I enjoy certain controllers over others, and certain button layouts to others. For example: I prefer PS3 controllers over 360, because of the joystick placement, and because the PS3 controller feels more comfortable. I dislike the GameCube controller for the same reason; I just don't find it comfortable. Some of the Wiimote attachments also feel more natural; MarioKart is much more enjoyable with the Wiimote wheel attachment. The controller takes care of the extrinsic factors which affect gameplay, enhancing the gaming experience, and in some instances increasing my level of enjoyment.