That was the joke. He was making a joke about the dead babies in question never getting old. Because they're dead.Father Time said:
On Rape Jokes and Sensitivity
- Thread starter Lonewolfm16
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Rape is a far more personal crime then assault or simple violence. While those things are terrible, they rarely leave the longterm mental scarring that rape does. A rape victim is disempowered in every way imaginable, and tends to leave horrible mental scars, even if there are no physical scars. The reason rape is treated differently from violence is because they are NOT the same.Lonewolfm16 said:
I don't know if you've met anyone close to you who has been raped, but I know several people. I also know people who were physically assaulted by their parents as children, and while that is horrendous and leaves scars as well, they were not as affected as the rape victims, who often felt like they didn't even own their own bodies anymore. That pain will never go away. One of the two girls I'm friends with cuts herself on a regular basis, is a heavy drug user, and relies on other things to numb the pain. My other friend still suffers from post traumatic stress syndrome, and would wake up in the nights screaming, thinking she was being raped again. It's especially painful because he got away with it, and she had to see him on a regular basis. She also became a heavy drug user for a long time. Her later boyfriends were highly abusive, but she wouldn't leave them because she felt she deserved it. You would never know it by looking at her, because she seems so normal and outgoing, but the people who suffer from this don't fit into stereotypes. They don't dress in black and act "emo." They're normal, preppy people to the outside world until you see the pain they're struggling with on a daily basis.
There's a sense of shame that exists with rape that doesn't exist with violence. If you get attacked, you're probably going to be more than happy to tell the police about what happened. Rape victims keep it to themselves, hoping it all just goes away, and rarely report it. There's also a strong rape culture that exists in this country. Rape culture is the idea that the rape was the victims fault, and that she deserved it, asked for it, or is lying about it. This may seem crazy, but my friend witnessed it first hand, as her rapist got off scott free and was at the same school as her. Her councler told my friend that if she reported what happened, she would make sure my friend never entered into a college. The rapist was handsome, popular, and charismatic, being the class president. His friends turned on her as well, calling her a liar, telling her she was either a liar or it was her fault. I even witnessed some of this myself when I met her in college. Victims of violence aren't usually blamed for the crime, but rape victims are.
Rape is a sensetive subject that I don't find funny. I believe these people have the right to tell these jokes because I believe in free speech, but I don't care to listen to it myself. There's a massive difference between rape and violence, and obviously murder victims don't have to live with their trauma.
My opinion:
Comedians who tell rape jokes: Usually (not all ways) not good or witty comedians in the first place, shock humor and crass is easy. Clean wit takes skill.
Women who do nothing but ***** about rape jokes even when its not really rape but the word being used as a synonym for 'devastated, dominated, owned, powned, beaten, defeated, butt-ravaged, and demolished' Have no lives.
Don't ban rape jokes, ban shitty comedians and people who want to ban speech.
"Boo hoo, we should ban something because it hurts muh feelings!"
We should ban you because your pussified sense of self superiority offends me.
"But it's offensive and degrades women!"
No, feminist who want to ban shit and think they're opinion matters because they have political correctness on their side degrades women.
Comedians who tell rape jokes: Usually (not all ways) not good or witty comedians in the first place, shock humor and crass is easy. Clean wit takes skill.
Women who do nothing but ***** about rape jokes even when its not really rape but the word being used as a synonym for 'devastated, dominated, owned, powned, beaten, defeated, butt-ravaged, and demolished' Have no lives.
Don't ban rape jokes, ban shitty comedians and people who want to ban speech.
"Boo hoo, we should ban something because it hurts muh feelings!"
We should ban you because your pussified sense of self superiority offends me.
"But it's offensive and degrades women!"
No, feminist who want to ban shit and think they're opinion matters because they have political correctness on their side degrades women.
Nailed it.Res Plus said:
If anyone has a solution to the "massive problem of low conviction rates" that doesn't involve completely compromising on burden-of-proof, they should speak up and be hailed as the revolutionary genius that they are.
Am I somehow victim blaming?
I honestly think there?s nothing off-bounds when it comes to comedy, as long as you?re not taking the piss out of a specific victim. For example, you can make a joke about Fritzl if it?s in the right context and is genuinely and intentionally satirical, but not if it?s to rip on his daughter for ?being a slut? or something like that. Plus, jokes that are primarily used for shock value tend to be empty and the comedy can be found in nothing other than, ?Ooh, look how edgy I am!? Some people criticise the comedian Jimmy Carr for these, but I personally think he makes a lot of his dark jokes work because of his execution. I mean, I don?t like to play on the whole ?slippery slope? thing, but if we somehow ?ban? rape jokes, what about Holocaust jokes? Muslim jokes? Emos? AIDS? Drug addicts? Dementia? If all comedians simply ?played it safe?, then you?d have critics complaining that they never branch outside of their boundaries ? one of the reasons why some people don?t like the comedian Michael McIntyre, because he?s ?too generic? (I happen to agree, but I don?t find him funny because I don?t find him funny, not because he doesn?t joke about race or rape).
I mean, no, this isn?t exactly the same thing, but I?m black and my friends rip on me all the time because of that. Sometimes, I do get pissed off about it because I kind of got bullied by people that I hung around with who only pretended to be my friends and passed off their racist comments as ?banter?, but also because most of the jokes are tired and repetitive. But one of my friends sent me a clip of Black Mean Girls on YouTube (made by a black guy, too), which was full of racial stereotypes, and I still found it funny. I can laugh at self-deprecating humour sometimes; I?m not entirely humourless. I wouldn?t want to play the victim all the time, and I don?t doubt that numerous rape victims wouldn?t either about some rape jokes. Some just don?t want to be patronised all the time and get on with their lives.
As for dead baby jokes?while I don?t find them offensive, I?ve almost never found them funny. Even the ones that are well-executed, because they always put an image in my head of, well, a dead baby and that nullifies the intended effect of the punchline.
As for the ?worst crime??I don?t really know. It is entirely subjective. You can?t compare rape and murder because they?re such different crimes. I mean, if pushed, I might say ?child sex trafficking? is the worst crime, because it?s more prolonged and can fuck with the delicacy of the child?s physical, mental and sexual development, but even then, just saying that might perpetuate the emotionally-fuelled kneejerk stereotype that victims of child sexual abuse can?t get over what happened to them and make it even harder for them to do so because everyone goes on about how terrible it is and focus more on the retribution of their perpetrator rather than the rehabilitation of the victim (because we know just how much people love to form hate mobs!).
I mean, no, this isn?t exactly the same thing, but I?m black and my friends rip on me all the time because of that. Sometimes, I do get pissed off about it because I kind of got bullied by people that I hung around with who only pretended to be my friends and passed off their racist comments as ?banter?, but also because most of the jokes are tired and repetitive. But one of my friends sent me a clip of Black Mean Girls on YouTube (made by a black guy, too), which was full of racial stereotypes, and I still found it funny. I can laugh at self-deprecating humour sometimes; I?m not entirely humourless. I wouldn?t want to play the victim all the time, and I don?t doubt that numerous rape victims wouldn?t either about some rape jokes. Some just don?t want to be patronised all the time and get on with their lives.
As for dead baby jokes?while I don?t find them offensive, I?ve almost never found them funny. Even the ones that are well-executed, because they always put an image in my head of, well, a dead baby and that nullifies the intended effect of the punchline.
As for the ?worst crime??I don?t really know. It is entirely subjective. You can?t compare rape and murder because they?re such different crimes. I mean, if pushed, I might say ?child sex trafficking? is the worst crime, because it?s more prolonged and can fuck with the delicacy of the child?s physical, mental and sexual development, but even then, just saying that might perpetuate the emotionally-fuelled kneejerk stereotype that victims of child sexual abuse can?t get over what happened to them and make it even harder for them to do so because everyone goes on about how terrible it is and focus more on the retribution of their perpetrator rather than the rehabilitation of the victim (because we know just how much people love to form hate mobs!).
To be fair, I think the conviction rate has more to do with the way courts work. Rape is a crime generally only seen between two people, and a crime that leaves very little evidence, so alot of trials essentially go like this:thaluikhain said:
"Did this man rape you, mrs.x?"
"Yes your honor."
"Did you rape mrs.x, mr.Y?"
"No your honor." And then everything kinda stalls from there. Even if you can prove sex, you can't prove it was non-consensual. The whole thing can be rather difficult without other witnesses or evidence like defensive wounds ect. Its the result of the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Still, I wouldn't want it changed, better to let a guilty man walk free, than to imprison a innocent one.
I disagree. Murder ends every single possibility and ends every single thing about life. And if most rape victims truly believed death to be a better alternative than rape there would be almost no living rape victims. Also, torture has all the same effects as rape with a bonus of far more physical pain and damage. Rape is nowhere near murder, and torture is far worse than rape.RT said:
But why is rape more controversial than what was going on on-screen at the time? Namely, two people horrifically beating and maiming one another. Both are fictional, yet one caused a controversy and the other, well, the other didn't at all. And if its because rape victims can be upset by hearing references to rape, why can't victims of violence, whether it be something like domestic abuse, or gang violence or a mugging etc etc, be equally upset by video games portraying violence?afroebob said:
There are a couple of main reasons why jokes about rape come under greater criticism than other offensive jokes.
Firstly, there is an inference made on the joker about how they feel about a subject when they joke. In most jokes about murder, violence, theft, up ethnic cleansing, it can usually be safely assumed that they're not OK with it. However, with rape (and the kind of jokes that end up making the news), that's not always clear. Remember that guy a while back - "wouldn't it be funny if you were just raped here?" It's kinda difficult to take some implicit condemnation from that, and when combined with the phenomenon that many don't condemn rape when the situation is described to them, and it's easy to see that the joke can make people step back and go - wait, how does this person really feel? Same goes for a lot of racist jokes - a good joke goes 'look at this great injustice, let's mock it', a bad joke goes 'haha black people'.
Secondly, in any given audience that has more than a few women, it becomes increasingly likely that you're speaking to a rape victim. Think about that for a second - when you're indulging in your hilarious rape humour at the pub, or a vehement defence of our right to make rape jokes on the internet, it's highly likely that you're telling this to a rape victim, and that these jokes (often being aggressive) can be triggers for them. Further, think about the demographics. Rape victims are mostly women (although the stats for men are probably under-represented, especially prison rape which has a similar situation, people think male prison rape is hilarious for...some reason?) and rapists are almost always men. In these comedy situations, it's almost always men making the jokes - now this isn't to say all of the men are evil rapists, but rather that we just don't think about it. We just go 'hehe rape is a controversial thing', whilst for women it's a real threat, something they consider frequently.
Firstly, there is an inference made on the joker about how they feel about a subject when they joke. In most jokes about murder, violence, theft, up ethnic cleansing, it can usually be safely assumed that they're not OK with it. However, with rape (and the kind of jokes that end up making the news), that's not always clear. Remember that guy a while back - "wouldn't it be funny if you were just raped here?" It's kinda difficult to take some implicit condemnation from that, and when combined with the phenomenon that many don't condemn rape when the situation is described to them, and it's easy to see that the joke can make people step back and go - wait, how does this person really feel? Same goes for a lot of racist jokes - a good joke goes 'look at this great injustice, let's mock it', a bad joke goes 'haha black people'.
Secondly, in any given audience that has more than a few women, it becomes increasingly likely that you're speaking to a rape victim. Think about that for a second - when you're indulging in your hilarious rape humour at the pub, or a vehement defence of our right to make rape jokes on the internet, it's highly likely that you're telling this to a rape victim, and that these jokes (often being aggressive) can be triggers for them. Further, think about the demographics. Rape victims are mostly women (although the stats for men are probably under-represented, especially prison rape which has a similar situation, people think male prison rape is hilarious for...some reason?) and rapists are almost always men. In these comedy situations, it's almost always men making the jokes - now this isn't to say all of the men are evil rapists, but rather that we just don't think about it. We just go 'hehe rape is a controversial thing', whilst for women it's a real threat, something they consider frequently.
Rape is a thing women have to fear.Lonewolfm16 said:
Sure, we all know we might be murdered. We might be a victim of a crime. Probably not, but statistically, it's possible. But women know that this is a constant potential thread- not a "yeah sure it might happen but probably not", but a "actually, it probably will happen at some point. If it hasn't already."
And every joke, every off-the-cuff comment, reinforces that fear. And not just that fear, but the way rape is often treated- as if it's the victim's fault, as if she should have dressed differently, not gone out at night, not been drinking, not lived her life as if she felt safe.
This is, of course, ignoring the differences between rape and other crimes, but I'm going to quickly put it into perspective for you; which means outing myself as transsexual (please don't make me regret this, Escapist.) I grew up as female and started transitioning to male shortly after I was legally old enough to do so.
I was sexually abused as a teenager.
I was raped when I was 16.
I ended up in an abusive "relationship"- I was unemployed, I had nowhere to go, and the man I was living with told me I had to have sex with him, or he would kick me out (even though I was contributing financially what I could via benefits.) Just to make it clear to anyone unsure- that's rape.
So that's sexual assault and rape by three different people before I started transitioning to male at the age of 19.
To continue to put it into perspective, almost everyone I told treated my experiences with derision and scorn. When I told my mother about the rape at the age of 16, she told me it was "my fault" for not fighting this six-foot-four, rather heavy man- or for not yelling so that I could be found in the incredibly humiliating situation of being raped. My own mother told me my rape was my own fault.
Ten years later, I am accepted entirely as male and I know nobody who looks at me walking down the street sees a potential rape victim- they just see a man. But that fear has been instilled in me since I was a teenager. And occasionally, I'm still afraid- not of rape, exactly, but specifically as being treated as a "thing", an object, rather than a person. Because that was what my two rapists, and my sexual abuser, reduced me to- an object for them to exert power over and take pleasure in, nothing more.
And that's something all women have to fear, all the time. And that's why rape jokes, and rape comments, aren't okay.
There we go. By the way, you said it pretty well yourself.romxxii said:
Also, for the people who seem to have forgotten.
Jim already pretty much covered why murder is "accepted", but rape is not.
Basically replace being in video games, with being in jokes.
I think the biggest thing is murder can be shown in a good light, ex: The bad guy gets killed, but ya can't really do that with rape.
Plus, as others have said, there are a lot more people going around saying that the blame of rapes rest with those who have been raped. As Jim put it not too many people say murder victims were being too lively. Also, of course there are many(far too many) people out there who have been raped, and that can't be ignored.
That isn't to say we can't make jokes about it. After all jokes are one of our ways to deal with very serious issues. That said, I think one of the other issues with rape jokes is that most often they aren't funny. Either because they aren't made well enough, or because the punch line is just, "ha ha! Person got raped!".
Side note: To the people saying the whole problem with rape jokes was made up by "The Evil Feminazis!", I got something to ask.
You saying only women/those who support women can be offended by rape jokes, or that only women get raped?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word
Great post, helped me formulate my thoughts about this better.arkady said:
1. It's about the power balance between the subject and the teller of the joke. I think (and other great comics like Stewart Lee think) that the job of the comedian is to balance out the power in society.
2. You probably shouldn't make jokes where rape victims are the butt of them, seeing as you stand a good chance of hurting someone in the audience.
My only real issue with this is it really doesn't match my own experiences. Of course, I am male so might lack some perspective here, but my observations on women I am close to don't quite fit it. Mainly my own family, as I don't spend as much personal time with female friends. My sister is the one in my family most likely to joke about rape, I have never heard her say anything that would indicate she is nervous about it. And her and her friends tend to joke about raping each other quite alot. Of course your whole "constant fear" idea does remind me alot of what people say its like living in neighborhoods filled with gangs and related things. Just replace "rape" with being jumped/beaten/stabbed/robbed. But despite this portrayal of violent gang crime is common and uncontroversial, even though it was a awful and terrifying reality for many people. My central question is why it seems that we treat rape as somewhat special as compared to other crimes, and while your answer does provide some explanation, I still don't quite think it explains it completely. As for your transexuality, there have been a few threads on trans issues and the discussion was very polite and respectful, so I would say that most people on the escapist won't give you any issues.Ren_Li said:
Nnnghhnnnghh...
On the one hand, my default stance has always been, and probably always will be: Someone simply being offended by something, in and of itself, is not sufficient reason for that thing not to exist. We don't and shouldn't live in a child-proof world defined by the lowest common denominator.
I also can't help but feel, as a man, that there's a certain subtext in these conversations that all men are a few insensitive jokes away from committing sexual assault, and that's an assumption that doesn't deserve to be floated without challenge. Some men weren't raised properly, to treat others with respect, to understand that what they want isn't the defining feature of their reality, and that's appalling, no question. But I genuinely don't think it's an integral part of the equation; we didn't come into the world with a "y" chromosome and a desire to force others to have sex with us that has to be suppressed by society at all costs.
On the other hand, there really was a level of insensitivity shown in the "trash talk" that's somewhat staggering. There are a lot of people out there who have actually been victims of sexual assault, and there's a real risk that this kind of thing can be triggering. I'm not saying that means "rape jokes" should necessarily be off limits, but I am saying the additional controversy such comments are likely to engender means that the joke teller should be, if not careful, at least thoughtful. Is this funnier because it's about rape? Is it asking the audience to find rape itself funny? Is it just using the topic for "shock value" and expecting the audience to laugh to show they are, basically, an aggressor rather than a victim?
And in this case, reading about it, part of me has to wonder if the presenter would have made the same joke if his opponent was male.
I think there's a bottom line for all jokes that applies doubly to jokes about something like rape. That is: are you amusing anyone other than yourself by telling it? (Taking into account the "I'm laughing to show I'm not weak" note above?) If not... maybe you should keep your mouth shut.
On the one hand, my default stance has always been, and probably always will be: Someone simply being offended by something, in and of itself, is not sufficient reason for that thing not to exist. We don't and shouldn't live in a child-proof world defined by the lowest common denominator.
I also can't help but feel, as a man, that there's a certain subtext in these conversations that all men are a few insensitive jokes away from committing sexual assault, and that's an assumption that doesn't deserve to be floated without challenge. Some men weren't raised properly, to treat others with respect, to understand that what they want isn't the defining feature of their reality, and that's appalling, no question. But I genuinely don't think it's an integral part of the equation; we didn't come into the world with a "y" chromosome and a desire to force others to have sex with us that has to be suppressed by society at all costs.
On the other hand, there really was a level of insensitivity shown in the "trash talk" that's somewhat staggering. There are a lot of people out there who have actually been victims of sexual assault, and there's a real risk that this kind of thing can be triggering. I'm not saying that means "rape jokes" should necessarily be off limits, but I am saying the additional controversy such comments are likely to engender means that the joke teller should be, if not careful, at least thoughtful. Is this funnier because it's about rape? Is it asking the audience to find rape itself funny? Is it just using the topic for "shock value" and expecting the audience to laugh to show they are, basically, an aggressor rather than a victim?
And in this case, reading about it, part of me has to wonder if the presenter would have made the same joke if his opponent was male.
I think there's a bottom line for all jokes that applies doubly to jokes about something like rape. That is: are you amusing anyone other than yourself by telling it? (Taking into account the "I'm laughing to show I'm not weak" note above?) If not... maybe you should keep your mouth shut.
An article I read touches on it:
http://www.gamingexcellence.com/features/e3-2013-killer-instinct-and-rape-culture-in-gaming
tl;dr
The difficulty in prosecuting rape leads to a somewhat subliminal programing to fear it at all times. Few seriously act with the intent to prevent being killed by an ax murderer, and we wouldn't get blamed for it if we did. Rape sadly falls into that crime people know they can get away with through reasonable doubt (my word against yours, mindset of victim at the time impossible to prove) that we kind of overcompensate in preventiveness, and in so, create a culture of fear with very little tolerance. As such, while making humorous death threats get brushed off as you probably won't go through with them, a rape joke gets projected into "if he jokes about it, he'll probably do it." This isn't correct, but it's hard to cut through that fear without coming off as insensitive.
Of course, the microsoft presentation was very poorly timed. So many groups that want to take gamer culture, turn it upside down and shake out all the immature bits couldn't help but jump on something they could point to and go "look, rape apologists". It wasn't that the comment was inappropriate for the E3 show floor (which it was) but the comment could not have had any appropriate context behind it and is just representative of the immature, sexist gamer culture we need to destroy. Heck, the "joke" wasn't even really jokey. It was more just a comment which could have an inappropriate context applied to it. Rape joke makes it sound like the guy did stand up and started telling dirty jokes.
http://www.gamingexcellence.com/features/e3-2013-killer-instinct-and-rape-culture-in-gaming
tl;dr
The difficulty in prosecuting rape leads to a somewhat subliminal programing to fear it at all times. Few seriously act with the intent to prevent being killed by an ax murderer, and we wouldn't get blamed for it if we did. Rape sadly falls into that crime people know they can get away with through reasonable doubt (my word against yours, mindset of victim at the time impossible to prove) that we kind of overcompensate in preventiveness, and in so, create a culture of fear with very little tolerance. As such, while making humorous death threats get brushed off as you probably won't go through with them, a rape joke gets projected into "if he jokes about it, he'll probably do it." This isn't correct, but it's hard to cut through that fear without coming off as insensitive.
Of course, the microsoft presentation was very poorly timed. So many groups that want to take gamer culture, turn it upside down and shake out all the immature bits couldn't help but jump on something they could point to and go "look, rape apologists". It wasn't that the comment was inappropriate for the E3 show floor (which it was) but the comment could not have had any appropriate context behind it and is just representative of the immature, sexist gamer culture we need to destroy. Heck, the "joke" wasn't even really jokey. It was more just a comment which could have an inappropriate context applied to it. Rape joke makes it sound like the guy did stand up and started telling dirty jokes.
@Lonwolfm16
- Rape is massively underreported.
- Rapists rarely get convicted.
- Victims are often not taken seriously.
- Victims are often blamed to some degree for their rape.
This is how Australia handles a serial rapist:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/adrian-bayley-parole-jill-meagher
- A lot of people still don't understand what rape is and what consent is.
- Rape is massively underreported.
- Rapists rarely get convicted.
- Victims are often not taken seriously.
- Victims are often blamed to some degree for their rape.
This is how Australia handles a serial rapist:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/adrian-bayley-parole-jill-meagher
It just is different.
Honestly, it's great when women feel no fear about it. Perhaps "all women" was a bad way to put it- although, it's possible that you're simply not aware of the fear. (I'm not saying that is the case- I don't know your sister, or her friends, so while I know some women would hide the fear- after all, letting fear of a thing control you only increases the fear- some women truly are so assured of their safety for whatever reason to really not feel fear.)Lonewolfm16 said:
But almost every woman will, at some point, have some experience of rape. Not necessarily of being raped, but of knowing a rape victim. The sheer number of women who experience it is so large (and so under-reported) that it makes sense for the majority to fear it- maybe not an overwhelming fear, but still, a constant little niggle.
Another point on the example you use- two people who are very comfortable about their safety with each other, and the boundaries in place, are more likely to be okay with such jokes being made. That doesn't just go for rape jokes- my closest social circle includes (amusingly), two bisexual people, and two sort-of homosexual people (one of whom is gender dysphoric, that is they don't identify as their birth gender but aren't transsexual for personal reasons, as well as a fully-transitioned transsexual), in two couples. And yes, we fling around gay jokes, lesbian jokes, bisexual jokes, and occasionally even jokes about gender transitioning. We would never fling such jokes around in other company, however.
Rape jokes are much the same. You have to know that all the people in the room are comfortable with it before you can sling them- comfortable both with the idea of rape being used as jokes, and with the teller and the recipient's roles. And that can radically shift when you don't know the people involved. Offensive jokes on race, on sexuality, on gender, are all very much best kept in their place- where it's not offensive, where it's not threatening, and where someone who may find it so can't overhear. And rape jokes are the same.
Aaaand that (damn I am rambling) is the third point- it is offensive, in that it's objectifying and personal. Rape is about control, it's about turning a person- almost always a woman- into a "thing". That is very different to other crimes, where the person is, generally speaking, still a person. Rape is something which strips a person of that "person-hood"- in fact, in many cases, it's primary function is dehumanisation, not pleasure. Other people have commented on the nature of the crime, and that's part of what it boils down to- it's a crime that tells the victim that they are not a person, their body is a possession for someone else to do with as they please.
Which sort of brings me on to the final point, and a rambly way I've come to it as well. Although any sufficiently traumatic event can do so, rape is one of the most commonly quoted causes of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder- which can destroy a person's ability to function in society and is very difficult to overcome. Being burgled, being mugged, generally does not do that. The victim remains a "victim" for a very long time- long after the financial damage of theft is sorted out, long after the physical damage of an attack is healed, most rape victims will still very much feel a "victim". Some never get over it. Rape is not only a very common crime, but it's effects on an individual can be massively destructive.
Honestly, I'm not sure the Escapist is the best way to get coherent explanations on how terrible a crime rape is, how pervasive the fear of it is, or how large and long-term the damage it does is. If you're truly interested, there's very well thought out articles out there if you're willing to find them- and I guarantee they ramble a LOT less than I did. Hopefully my points are at least somewhat coherent, though.
I'm with Jimmy Carr on this: The audience decides what's socially acceptable. If your audience knows you, and you know your audience, you know what kinds of things they're expecting you to say and what you can get away with. And if the audience laughs, it's acceptable by their standards. But if they don't, then it's not.
So in other words, I consider rape jokes okay depending on the context.
Furthermore, "taste" is a matter of opinion and so is what's offensive. No one person has the right or authority to say for sure what is and isn't offensive. Because of this, we can never say that certain jokes are "wrong" and others aren't, because offense isn't universal, nor is it consistent. Therefore, either everything is okay to joke about, or nothing is. You can't get rid of some jokes that offend some people, but keep other jokes around. If you cater to the demands of some offended people, you have to cater to all of the demands of all offended. Now I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a world with all the jokes, than a world with no jokes.
Daniel Tosh got in trouble for a rape joke, but he shouldn't have. People coming to his shows should know nothing is sacred. Louis C.K. has told jokes about rape, and he's still hilarious. There seems to be this misconception that rape jokes "normalize rape", but that's as bullshit as the idea that Dead or Alive can turn you into a chauvinist. If you support women's rights, a bouncing pair of boobs won't change your opinions. And if you think rape is wrong, a rape joke isn't going to change your opinions either. In fact, I would dare say that rape jokes actually reaffirm the severity of rape.
What?
Yes. Because people in a big stand-up audience always react in that "Ooooh." tone when hearing a rape joke. Not necessarily a disapproving one, but one that acknowledges how terrible the joke is regardless. They understand how naughty the comedian is being, and that's where part of the humor comes from. They wouldn't react like that if they didn't think rape was serious. Their collective reaction, therefore, reaffirms to everybody watching that rape is a big deal. Rape jokes don't "normalize" rape, they confirm everybody's consensus that rape is still horrible.
There are jokes that offend me or make me feel sad. Believe me when I say that I am not just another privileged white dude; I've been through some shit. But when I hear the jokes that bother me, I just deal with it and wait for the next ones. I don't get upset and boycott one of my favorite comedians just because he breached a subject I don't like. The only thing I've really had a hard time forgiving one of my favorite performers for, was that time Jim Sterling made an episode specifically dedicated to telling people like me what a horrible, unnatural, disgusting monster I am for what I can't help being attracted to [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6361-Monster-Boobs-And-Plastic-Children]. Because apparently it's okay to shame people for their harmless fetishes as long as you're doing it in the name of "fighting sexism".
So in other words, I consider rape jokes okay depending on the context.
Furthermore, "taste" is a matter of opinion and so is what's offensive. No one person has the right or authority to say for sure what is and isn't offensive. Because of this, we can never say that certain jokes are "wrong" and others aren't, because offense isn't universal, nor is it consistent. Therefore, either everything is okay to joke about, or nothing is. You can't get rid of some jokes that offend some people, but keep other jokes around. If you cater to the demands of some offended people, you have to cater to all of the demands of all offended. Now I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a world with all the jokes, than a world with no jokes.
Daniel Tosh got in trouble for a rape joke, but he shouldn't have. People coming to his shows should know nothing is sacred. Louis C.K. has told jokes about rape, and he's still hilarious. There seems to be this misconception that rape jokes "normalize rape", but that's as bullshit as the idea that Dead or Alive can turn you into a chauvinist. If you support women's rights, a bouncing pair of boobs won't change your opinions. And if you think rape is wrong, a rape joke isn't going to change your opinions either. In fact, I would dare say that rape jokes actually reaffirm the severity of rape.
What?
Yes. Because people in a big stand-up audience always react in that "Ooooh." tone when hearing a rape joke. Not necessarily a disapproving one, but one that acknowledges how terrible the joke is regardless. They understand how naughty the comedian is being, and that's where part of the humor comes from. They wouldn't react like that if they didn't think rape was serious. Their collective reaction, therefore, reaffirms to everybody watching that rape is a big deal. Rape jokes don't "normalize" rape, they confirm everybody's consensus that rape is still horrible.
There are jokes that offend me or make me feel sad. Believe me when I say that I am not just another privileged white dude; I've been through some shit. But when I hear the jokes that bother me, I just deal with it and wait for the next ones. I don't get upset and boycott one of my favorite comedians just because he breached a subject I don't like. The only thing I've really had a hard time forgiving one of my favorite performers for, was that time Jim Sterling made an episode specifically dedicated to telling people like me what a horrible, unnatural, disgusting monster I am for what I can't help being attracted to [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6361-Monster-Boobs-And-Plastic-Children]. Because apparently it's okay to shame people for their harmless fetishes as long as you're doing it in the name of "fighting sexism".