On Rape Jokes and Sensitivity

Imp_Emissary

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romxxii said:
The problem with rape is that the act is abhorrent. The problem with the rape jokes that get on the news is that they're not funny. When a rape joke isn't funny, all you're left with is the rapeyness.

George Carlin explains it better:

There we go. By the way, you said it pretty well yourself.
Also, for the people who seem to have forgotten.
Jim already pretty much covered why murder is "accepted", but rape is not.




Basically replace being in video games, with being in jokes.

I think the biggest thing is murder can be shown in a good light, ex: The bad guy gets killed, but ya can't really do that with rape.

Plus, as others have said, there are a lot more people going around saying that the blame of rapes rest with those who have been raped. As Jim put it not too many people say murder victims were being too lively. Also, of course there are many(far too many) people out there who have been raped, and that can't be ignored.

That isn't to say we can't make jokes about it. After all jokes are one of our ways to deal with very serious issues. That said, I think one of the other issues with rape jokes is that most often they aren't funny. Either because they aren't made well enough, or because the punch line is just, "ha ha! Person got raped!".

Side note: To the people saying the whole problem with rape jokes was made up by "The Evil Feminazis!", I got something to ask.

You saying only women/those who support women can be offended by rape jokes, or that only women get raped?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word
 

ArnRand

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arkady said:
A lot of the time it's about power.

From the OP:
" Demetri Martin is a comedian I like. He once had a bit, I can't remember where it was from and its been awhile so I might not remember the whole thing precisely, where he joked that he had the super-power of being invisible to bartenders. He ends the joke by pantomiming stabbing the bartender and saying something to the effect of "Oh! Didn't see that coming, did you?" "

What's the difference between this and a rape joke?

1. In Martin's joke the disempowered attacks the one in power. Rape jokes make fun of those already disempowered, and make the disempowerment worse.

In Martin's situation his 'super-power' is actually disempowering him. He can no longer get the drink he wants. In doing so he taps into a situation most people have had in a bar of trying (and failing) to attract the bar staff's attention. The barman has power over him and his act of violence at the end is a) subverting that power, which is a common ground for humour, and b) outlandish and over the top. Most barmen don't face violence on a day-to-day basis (and those that do get appropriate treatment and response).

Contrast this to rape jokes: a) men still have more power than women in society so rape jokes are reinforcing an ugly abuse of this power and b) rape is alarmingly common still, for many women threats of rape are so commonplace they have to tune them out and she is unlikely to get taken seriously by police and likely to get blamed by society. Rape jokes make this worse! They condone the rape, they have the message that this is an acceptable way to treat people and worst of all: PEOPLE BELIEVE IT!

When a joke basically says "rapez lolz0r" it tells us that rape is funny. The reality of the situation was summed up by a close friend: "I'd rather he'd have just killed me instead." I challenge you to find a mainstream comic doing a joke about other forms of violence that condones violence against the disempowered.

2. Rape jokes can be done properly. Condoning rape isn't funny. It's horrifying. But comedians do it anyway, because our culture tells them it's okay to do so (also horrifying, when you think about it). For example, Sarah Millican in her live shows used to use a sex-starved spinster as her character and had the memorable joke: "I like to annoy rapists. At the last minute I'll shout 'I consent!'" In doing so she subverts the power of the situation, making it clear she's still in control. The "How to Make a Rape Joke" article below contains a few more examples.

(Some good articles:
http://jezebel.com/an-open-letter-to-white-male-comedians-497503334
http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke
http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-lewis/2013/06/we-must-threaten-women-rape-save-comedy-says-internet
)
Great post, helped me formulate my thoughts about this better.

1. It's about the power balance between the subject and the teller of the joke. I think (and other great comics like Stewart Lee think) that the job of the comedian is to balance out the power in society.

2. You probably shouldn't make jokes where rape victims are the butt of them, seeing as you stand a good chance of hurting someone in the audience.
 

Lonewolfm16

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Ren_Li said:
Lonewolfm16 said:
Why is rape such a massive controversy when it comes to jokes? I mean, yes it is a awful crime, but just look at how people treat equally brutal and horrible crimes. Murder, brutal assault, torture, arson all these are horrible crimes, yet they are all less controversial than rape.
Rape is a thing women have to fear.
Sure, we all know we might be murdered. We might be a victim of a crime. Probably not, but statistically, it's possible. But women know that this is a constant potential thread- not a "yeah sure it might happen but probably not", but a "actually, it probably will happen at some point. If it hasn't already."
And every joke, every off-the-cuff comment, reinforces that fear. And not just that fear, but the way rape is often treated- as if it's the victim's fault, as if she should have dressed differently, not gone out at night, not been drinking, not lived her life as if she felt safe.

This is, of course, ignoring the differences between rape and other crimes, but I'm going to quickly put it into perspective for you; which means outing myself as transsexual (please don't make me regret this, Escapist.) I grew up as female and started transitioning to male shortly after I was legally old enough to do so.

I was sexually abused as a teenager.
I was raped when I was 16.
I ended up in an abusive "relationship"- I was unemployed, I had nowhere to go, and the man I was living with told me I had to have sex with him, or he would kick me out (even though I was contributing financially what I could via benefits.) Just to make it clear to anyone unsure- that's rape.

So that's sexual assault and rape by three different people before I started transitioning to male at the age of 19.
To continue to put it into perspective, almost everyone I told treated my experiences with derision and scorn. When I told my mother about the rape at the age of 16, she told me it was "my fault" for not fighting this six-foot-four, rather heavy man- or for not yelling so that I could be found in the incredibly humiliating situation of being raped. My own mother told me my rape was my own fault.

Ten years later, I am accepted entirely as male and I know nobody who looks at me walking down the street sees a potential rape victim- they just see a man. But that fear has been instilled in me since I was a teenager. And occasionally, I'm still afraid- not of rape, exactly, but specifically as being treated as a "thing", an object, rather than a person. Because that was what my two rapists, and my sexual abuser, reduced me to- an object for them to exert power over and take pleasure in, nothing more.

And that's something all women have to fear, all the time. And that's why rape jokes, and rape comments, aren't okay.
My only real issue with this is it really doesn't match my own experiences. Of course, I am male so might lack some perspective here, but my observations on women I am close to don't quite fit it. Mainly my own family, as I don't spend as much personal time with female friends. My sister is the one in my family most likely to joke about rape, I have never heard her say anything that would indicate she is nervous about it. And her and her friends tend to joke about raping each other quite alot. Of course your whole "constant fear" idea does remind me alot of what people say its like living in neighborhoods filled with gangs and related things. Just replace "rape" with being jumped/beaten/stabbed/robbed. But despite this portrayal of violent gang crime is common and uncontroversial, even though it was a awful and terrifying reality for many people. My central question is why it seems that we treat rape as somewhat special as compared to other crimes, and while your answer does provide some explanation, I still don't quite think it explains it completely. As for your transexuality, there have been a few threads on trans issues and the discussion was very polite and respectful, so I would say that most people on the escapist won't give you any issues.
 

Callate

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Nnnghhnnnghh...

On the one hand, my default stance has always been, and probably always will be: Someone simply being offended by something, in and of itself, is not sufficient reason for that thing not to exist. We don't and shouldn't live in a child-proof world defined by the lowest common denominator.

I also can't help but feel, as a man, that there's a certain subtext in these conversations that all men are a few insensitive jokes away from committing sexual assault, and that's an assumption that doesn't deserve to be floated without challenge. Some men weren't raised properly, to treat others with respect, to understand that what they want isn't the defining feature of their reality, and that's appalling, no question. But I genuinely don't think it's an integral part of the equation; we didn't come into the world with a "y" chromosome and a desire to force others to have sex with us that has to be suppressed by society at all costs.

On the other hand, there really was a level of insensitivity shown in the "trash talk" that's somewhat staggering. There are a lot of people out there who have actually been victims of sexual assault, and there's a real risk that this kind of thing can be triggering. I'm not saying that means "rape jokes" should necessarily be off limits, but I am saying the additional controversy such comments are likely to engender means that the joke teller should be, if not careful, at least thoughtful. Is this funnier because it's about rape? Is it asking the audience to find rape itself funny? Is it just using the topic for "shock value" and expecting the audience to laugh to show they are, basically, an aggressor rather than a victim?

And in this case, reading about it, part of me has to wonder if the presenter would have made the same joke if his opponent was male.

I think there's a bottom line for all jokes that applies doubly to jokes about something like rape. That is: are you amusing anyone other than yourself by telling it? (Taking into account the "I'm laughing to show I'm not weak" note above?) If not... maybe you should keep your mouth shut.
 

Redd the Sock

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An article I read touches on it:

http://www.gamingexcellence.com/features/e3-2013-killer-instinct-and-rape-culture-in-gaming

tl;dr

The difficulty in prosecuting rape leads to a somewhat subliminal programing to fear it at all times. Few seriously act with the intent to prevent being killed by an ax murderer, and we wouldn't get blamed for it if we did. Rape sadly falls into that crime people know they can get away with through reasonable doubt (my word against yours, mindset of victim at the time impossible to prove) that we kind of overcompensate in preventiveness, and in so, create a culture of fear with very little tolerance. As such, while making humorous death threats get brushed off as you probably won't go through with them, a rape joke gets projected into "if he jokes about it, he'll probably do it." This isn't correct, but it's hard to cut through that fear without coming off as insensitive.

Of course, the microsoft presentation was very poorly timed. So many groups that want to take gamer culture, turn it upside down and shake out all the immature bits couldn't help but jump on something they could point to and go "look, rape apologists". It wasn't that the comment was inappropriate for the E3 show floor (which it was) but the comment could not have had any appropriate context behind it and is just representative of the immature, sexist gamer culture we need to destroy. Heck, the "joke" wasn't even really jokey. It was more just a comment which could have an inappropriate context applied to it. Rape joke makes it sound like the guy did stand up and started telling dirty jokes.
 

Uhura

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@Lonwolfm16

My central question is why it seems that we treat rape as somewhat special as compared to other crimes
- A lot of people still don't understand what rape is and what consent is.
- Rape is massively underreported.
- Rapists rarely get convicted.
- Victims are often not taken seriously.
- Victims are often blamed to some degree for their rape.

This is how Australia handles a serial rapist:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/adrian-bayley-parole-jill-meagher

Adrian Bayley, who has admitted raping and murdering ABC employee Jill Meagher, has previously been found guilty of more than 20 rape offences and was on parole for attacking five prostitutes at the time of Meagher's death, it has been revealed in court on Tuesday.
It just is different.
 

Ren_Li

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Lonewolfm16 said:
Snip because this is getting pretty long.
Honestly, it's great when women feel no fear about it. Perhaps "all women" was a bad way to put it- although, it's possible that you're simply not aware of the fear. (I'm not saying that is the case- I don't know your sister, or her friends, so while I know some women would hide the fear- after all, letting fear of a thing control you only increases the fear- some women truly are so assured of their safety for whatever reason to really not feel fear.)
But almost every woman will, at some point, have some experience of rape. Not necessarily of being raped, but of knowing a rape victim. The sheer number of women who experience it is so large (and so under-reported) that it makes sense for the majority to fear it- maybe not an overwhelming fear, but still, a constant little niggle.

Another point on the example you use- two people who are very comfortable about their safety with each other, and the boundaries in place, are more likely to be okay with such jokes being made. That doesn't just go for rape jokes- my closest social circle includes (amusingly), two bisexual people, and two sort-of homosexual people (one of whom is gender dysphoric, that is they don't identify as their birth gender but aren't transsexual for personal reasons, as well as a fully-transitioned transsexual), in two couples. And yes, we fling around gay jokes, lesbian jokes, bisexual jokes, and occasionally even jokes about gender transitioning. We would never fling such jokes around in other company, however.
Rape jokes are much the same. You have to know that all the people in the room are comfortable with it before you can sling them- comfortable both with the idea of rape being used as jokes, and with the teller and the recipient's roles. And that can radically shift when you don't know the people involved. Offensive jokes on race, on sexuality, on gender, are all very much best kept in their place- where it's not offensive, where it's not threatening, and where someone who may find it so can't overhear. And rape jokes are the same.

Aaaand that (damn I am rambling) is the third point- it is offensive, in that it's objectifying and personal. Rape is about control, it's about turning a person- almost always a woman- into a "thing". That is very different to other crimes, where the person is, generally speaking, still a person. Rape is something which strips a person of that "person-hood"- in fact, in many cases, it's primary function is dehumanisation, not pleasure. Other people have commented on the nature of the crime, and that's part of what it boils down to- it's a crime that tells the victim that they are not a person, their body is a possession for someone else to do with as they please.

Which sort of brings me on to the final point, and a rambly way I've come to it as well. Although any sufficiently traumatic event can do so, rape is one of the most commonly quoted causes of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder- which can destroy a person's ability to function in society and is very difficult to overcome. Being burgled, being mugged, generally does not do that. The victim remains a "victim" for a very long time- long after the financial damage of theft is sorted out, long after the physical damage of an attack is healed, most rape victims will still very much feel a "victim". Some never get over it. Rape is not only a very common crime, but it's effects on an individual can be massively destructive.

Honestly, I'm not sure the Escapist is the best way to get coherent explanations on how terrible a crime rape is, how pervasive the fear of it is, or how large and long-term the damage it does is. If you're truly interested, there's very well thought out articles out there if you're willing to find them- and I guarantee they ramble a LOT less than I did. Hopefully my points are at least somewhat coherent, though.
 

Belated

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I'm with Jimmy Carr on this: The audience decides what's socially acceptable. If your audience knows you, and you know your audience, you know what kinds of things they're expecting you to say and what you can get away with. And if the audience laughs, it's acceptable by their standards. But if they don't, then it's not.

So in other words, I consider rape jokes okay depending on the context.

Furthermore, "taste" is a matter of opinion and so is what's offensive. No one person has the right or authority to say for sure what is and isn't offensive. Because of this, we can never say that certain jokes are "wrong" and others aren't, because offense isn't universal, nor is it consistent. Therefore, either everything is okay to joke about, or nothing is. You can't get rid of some jokes that offend some people, but keep other jokes around. If you cater to the demands of some offended people, you have to cater to all of the demands of all offended. Now I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a world with all the jokes, than a world with no jokes.

Daniel Tosh got in trouble for a rape joke, but he shouldn't have. People coming to his shows should know nothing is sacred. Louis C.K. has told jokes about rape, and he's still hilarious. There seems to be this misconception that rape jokes "normalize rape", but that's as bullshit as the idea that Dead or Alive can turn you into a chauvinist. If you support women's rights, a bouncing pair of boobs won't change your opinions. And if you think rape is wrong, a rape joke isn't going to change your opinions either. In fact, I would dare say that rape jokes actually reaffirm the severity of rape.

What?

Yes. Because people in a big stand-up audience always react in that "Ooooh." tone when hearing a rape joke. Not necessarily a disapproving one, but one that acknowledges how terrible the joke is regardless. They understand how naughty the comedian is being, and that's where part of the humor comes from. They wouldn't react like that if they didn't think rape was serious. Their collective reaction, therefore, reaffirms to everybody watching that rape is a big deal. Rape jokes don't "normalize" rape, they confirm everybody's consensus that rape is still horrible.

There are jokes that offend me or make me feel sad. Believe me when I say that I am not just another privileged white dude; I've been through some shit. But when I hear the jokes that bother me, I just deal with it and wait for the next ones. I don't get upset and boycott one of my favorite comedians just because he breached a subject I don't like. The only thing I've really had a hard time forgiving one of my favorite performers for, was that time Jim Sterling made an episode specifically dedicated to telling people like me what a horrible, unnatural, disgusting monster I am for what I can't help being attracted to [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6361-Monster-Boobs-And-Plastic-Children]. Because apparently it's okay to shame people for their harmless fetishes as long as you're doing it in the name of "fighting sexism".
 

Daria.Morgendorffer

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If a joke is funny, I will laugh.

Okay, if the UID doesn't make it obvious, I'm female. I'm also considered "short", and I am skinny.

Yes, I live in reasonable (but not crippling) fear of getting raped. My car is NEVER without at least half a tank of gas in it. I NEVER travel anywhere without my camping knife, despite the fact that it could be considered a concealed weapon and I could be arrested for it. I NEVER park next to a van, and I get the hell away from anyone cat-calling me FROM a van.

Do I think women who do not do these things "deserve" to be raped? Of course not, but I grew up in the ghetto, so I'm more paranoid than most. Nobody deserves it, and I hate the fact that women are overly gaslighted into thinking they were not brutalized.

Rape is an awful thing, and I hate the fact that I need to clarify that fact (I get particularly skeeved out at rape fantasies; I honestly have no idea why anyone would participate in such a thing knowing so much could go wrong). But I'm also not one of those feminists that twitches at the word "rape". I'd rather have open and honest discussions about it than sticking my fingers in my ears until "rape" is no longer the topic of discussion.

That said: if a joke is funny, I will laugh.

I've seen the Jim Norton/Lindy West debate on the subject, and I have to say that I came down, ultimately, on the side of Jim Norton. Because, as he quoted Matt and Trey, either it's all OK or none of it is OK. Lindy West tried to insist that making a rape joke might be inconsiderate of someone's feelings in that audience, but it's not the comedian's responsibility to make sure he/she doesn't bounce someone's trigger. (If you pay real close attention to that debate, by the way, West herself made a rape joke, and Norton either missed it or was too respectful to call her out on it. I myself would have not been so kind.)

Bottom line is that she claimed she wasn't trying to control speech, but she really was. Because if you have to take into account the feelings of everyone for every reason, there will be nothing to joke about ever. Oh, and comedy is not supposed to serve as your "safe space" for your debate on the subject. If you don't like the comic, fine. You're within your right to call him a "dick" for it. But it's not his responsibility to cater to every feeling you have.

PS: I have not been raped, but I have been in long-term emotionally abusive relationships that were also scarring and humiliating. I laugh about that too. It helps me cope.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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thaluikhain said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
If someone believes in equality I don't think they can be unknowingly perpetuating a system that is unequal when it is a subject of discussion often and they have plenty of opportunity to examine their actions.
I disagree with that. Even the best intentioned person can make a mistake, it's going to happen sooner or later. That's a big part of lots of social activism, that people accept mistakes and acknowledge them.
Zachary Amaranth said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
I don't think I can define it properly being as tired as I am. For now, apply common sense. If someone believes in equality I don't think they can be unknowingly perpetuating a system that is unequal when it is a subject of discussion often and they have plenty of opportunity to examine their actions.
If someone supports equality they can totally UNKNOWINGLY perpetuate a system that is unequal. That's what unknowing is all about. Further, people tend not to self-analyse, so it's quite possible to not put much thought into this. That's why you have so many people here claim to be "equalists" then tell women to stop bitching in the next breath. They never think about it, so they never reach cognitive disonnance. Or they justify it. There's a lot of people who try and justify why, while they oppose racism, it's okay to try and prevent a black person from getting a home on the block or dating their child.

Humans are complicated and often operate on a level that belies thought or logic.
Ok, I will stop attempting to generalise. The final point I fall back to is that I don't think casual or comedic use of sexism and racism perpetuates sexism and racism, both in cases where it is satire of intolerant mindsets, and where an intolerant phrase is used to mean something else. Generally what I see people saying is that just because the words "mankind", "fag" and "nigga" are used at all, it is perpetuating their respective prejudices whether or not the speaker is using them for that purpose. But the three words have advanced beyond their initial prejudice to the point where I think they are mainly used for their context-dependant alternate meanings, or used ironically or in parody, and I don't see this as a problem.
 

Ishal

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I think joking about something as abhorrent as rape is just picking low fruit for the shock value of it. Comedians often do it, and I don't find it too funny.

If any person, male or female, tells me they are offended by something I say or said, I tend to stop saying those things. I don't tell them to get a thicker skin or grow up or whatever. I don't see anything to gain from being all bent out of shape over it and being confrontational. If someone has the courage to come up to me and single me out, telling me exactly what I said that offended them, then that will be the end of it.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Fox12 said:
Rape is a far more personal crime then assault or simple violence. While those things are terrible, they rarely leave the longterm mental scarring that rape does. A rape victim is disempowered in every way imaginable, and tends to leave horrible mental scars, even if there are no physical scars. The reason rape is treated differently from violence is because they are NOT the same.

I don't know if you've met anyone close to you who has been raped, but I know several people. I also know people who were physically assaulted by their parents as children, and while that is horrendous and leaves scars as well, they were not as affected as the rape victims, who often felt like they didn't even own their own bodies anymore. That pain will never go away. One of the two girls I'm friends with cuts herself on a regular basis, is a heavy drug user, and relies on other things to numb the pain. My other friend still suffers from post traumatic stress syndrome, and would wake up in the nights screaming, thinking she was being raped again. It's especially painful because he got away with it, and she had to see him on a regular basis. She also became a heavy drug user for a long time. Her later boyfriends were highly abusive, but she wouldn't leave them because she felt she deserved it. You would never know it by looking at her, because she seems so normal and outgoing, but the people who suffer from this don't fit into stereotypes. They don't dress in black and act "emo." They're normal, preppy people to the outside world until you see the pain they're struggling with on a daily basis.

There's a sense of shame that exists with rape that doesn't exist with violence. If you get attacked, you're probably going to be more than happy to tell the police about what happened. Rape victims keep it to themselves, hoping it all just goes away, and rarely report it. There's also a strong rape culture that exists in this country. Rape culture is the idea that the rape was the victims fault, and that she deserved it, asked for it, or is lying about it. This may seem crazy, but my friend witnessed it first hand, as her rapist got off scott free and was at the same school as her. Her councilor told my friend that if she reported what happened, she would make sure my friend never entered into a college. The rapist was handsome, popular, and charismatic, being the class president. His friends turned on her as well, calling her a liar, telling her she was either a liar or it was her fault. I even witnessed some of this myself when I met her in college. Victims of violence aren't usually blamed for the crime, but rape victims are.
Well said, touched on most everything I dropped by the thread to discuss. Rape is an extraordinarily dehumanizing crime. Many...not all, but many...rape victims are left shattered by their experience, and the road to recovery is long and painful, and often belabored by recrimination and second guessing by a society they look to for support. Women get everything from their sexual history to their choice of attire dragged out into the limelight, men get their masculinity questioned and/or undermined, assuming they aren't getting laughed at for failing to overpower their attacker like a proper dude.

One doesn't need to look much further than the very recent Steubenville to see what kind of circus ensues from a rape accusation, to what degree the victim is demonized, and what extraordinary lengths need to be gone to in order to make a conviction stick.

That doesn't mean you can't make jokes about it. Gallows humor and whistling past the graveyard are ways in which humans learn to rationalize and make sense of unpleasant truths. Like all jokes about highly sensitive material, however, I would suggest you leave the timing, choice of audience, and execution of such jokes to professionals. You don't HAVE to...I assume we all live in free countries...but if you make a stupid rape joke in front of a rape survivor and they go into PTSD overdrive, that's on you. Don't make Holocaust jokes in front of Holocaust survivors, don't make dead baby jokes in front of grieving mothers, and don't make rape jokes in front of rape survivors. Don't know who the rape survivors are? Maybe you should reconsider your joke.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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BloatedGuppy said:
if you make a stupid rape joke in front of a rape survivor and they go into PTSD overdrive, that's on you.
Talk about victim blaming. If a rape survivor has PTSD, don't you think they should be getting treatment for it? What you just said is akin to saying "if your car backfires and there's a veteran with PTSD in the area who has an episode and attacks you, that's on you."

I mean yes, it's a dick move if you crack a rape joke to someone who you know is a survivor, but I really don't see how anyone is responsible for the actions of people suffering from PTSD, any more than they would be if the person had bipolar disorder or depression. Or schizophrenia, for that matter.
 

Phearo

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ThreeName said:
You guys didn't get the joke :(
Father Time said:
Well no. It would be a dick move to tell it to her knowing her baby died, but telling it my friends who are not parents, they may not mind.
B-but, I was quoting Smash Mouth! You don't like Walking in the Sun?

Zachary Amaranth said:
I hear what you're saying, but I fear you might as well be walking on the sun.
See, this guy gets it.
 

ThreeName

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Phearo said:
B-but, I was quoting Smash Mouth! You don't like Walking in the Sun?
Apologies, I don't really listen to... that. I think it was in a Weird Al song though.

Comment rescinded!
 

BloatedGuppy

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Owyn_Merrilin said:
Talk about victim blaming. If a rape survivor has PTSD, don't you think they should be getting treatment for it? What you just said is akin to saying "if your car backfires and there's a veteran with PTSD in the area who has an episode and attacks you, that's on you."

I mean yes, it's a dick move if you crack a rape joke to someone who you know is a survivor, but I really don't see how anyone is responsible for the actions of people suffering from PTSD, any more than they would be if the person had bipolar disorder or depression. Or schizophrenia, for that matter.
How on earth is that "victim blaming"? Oh wait, what is this falderal about "getting attacked"? Who said anything about "getting attacked"? There's misconstruing what people say and then there's just...this. You've created a scenario in which a whimsical joke maker is brutally assaulted by someone with PTSD, and then ascribed it to me. Well done. That's an easy one to topple, isn't it? Don't get straw on the floor.

Car backfiring =/= making a joke you know perfectly well is extremely sensitive/provocative. It's a ludicrous analogy. If rape humor just comes tumbling out of your mouth completely unbidden in the same fashion that a car randomly backfires I suggest speaking to a doctor.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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May 22, 2010
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BloatedGuppy said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
Talk about victim blaming. If a rape survivor has PTSD, don't you think they should be getting treatment for it? What you just said is akin to saying "if your car backfires and there's a veteran with PTSD in the area who has an episode and attacks you, that's on you."

I mean yes, it's a dick move if you crack a rape joke to someone who you know is a survivor, but I really don't see how anyone is responsible for the actions of people suffering from PTSD, any more than they would be if the person had bipolar disorder or depression. Or schizophrenia, for that matter.
How on earth is that "victim blaming"? Oh wait, what is this falderal about "getting attacked"? Who said anything about "getting attacked"? There's misconstruing what people say and then there's just...this. You've created a scenario in which a whimsical joke maker is brutally assaulted by someone with PTSD, and then ascribed it to me. Well done. That's an easy one to topple, isn't it? Don't get straw on the floor.

Car backfiring =/= making a joke you know perfectly well is extremely sensitive/provocative. It's a ludicrous analogy. If rape humor just comes tumbling out of your mouth completely unbidden in the same fashion that a car randomly backfires I suggest speaking to a doctor.
It's actually a pretty good analogy, since if your car is backfiring, you need to take it to a mechanic. They aren't supposed to do that. So there's a definite choice there as to whether to get your car fixed or not, and in the meantime you run the risk of triggering an episode in any vets with PTSD in the area. Just like you can choose to crack a rape joke, but you run the risk of triggering the PTSD of any rape survivors who might be listening. PTSD is a serious mental health condition, and I urge anyone suffering from it to see a psychiatrist so they can better integrate themselves into normal life. Even if it doesn't cause you to actually attack someone, if it's serious enough to be called "PTSD Overdrive," it's serious enough to see a doctor about. If what someone says bothers you, I'd suggest avoiding that person. If what they say puts you into a flashback, I'd suggest a psychiatrist to get help managing your trauma.

Edit: By the way, "PTSD overdrive" was your phrase, not mine. If I wasn't supposed to take it as flashback triggered violence, what was I supposed to take it as? Even if it's "just" a panic attack, that's a serious enough problem to suggest that the person doing it needs help.