On Rape Jokes and Sensitivity

Scott Rothman

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Mr F. said:
Scott Rothman said:
There isn't inherently wrong with a joke that discusses the topic of rape. The issue is with jokes that are at the expense of victims of rape.

Like, here


Joke that touches on rape and isn't offensive to victims of rape
Dropping in for 30 seconds before going to the pharmacy.

One: Your video made me laugh. (Gonna embed it into your post. You should embed things people)
Two: Because rape is rape, it can never be justified, normalised, and its not ridiculous. See, when I say "What is the difference between a truck load of sand and a truckload of babies? You cannot unload a truckload of sand with a pitch fork" that is ridiculous and fucking stupid. Just ridiculous and just fucking stupid. There will never be a truckload of babies being unloaded with a pitchfork.

You might know someone who knows someone who has been murdered. My dad lost a colleague in Pa Pua New Guinea to a screwdriver during a robbery. You might know someone who has been brutally assaulted, had a friend jumped outside Tesco, he had seven kinds of hell beaten out of him. But that is unlikely.

What is incredibly likely is that you know a rape victim. I mean, bar those specific examples, I know nobody who has been murdered or brutally (As in, hospitalised) assaulted. Yet, from the top of my head, I can name at least 4 rape victims that I knew on a personal level. Oh, wait, five. And, if I had not fought and stuggled, I would be number 6 on that list. Those are just the people that have, on a personal basis, told me about what has happened.

See, that is why Rape is just something you have to be very, very careful about joking about. That vid was fucking hilarious, that is a rape joke done well. But most are not. And you sorta have to remember that chances are you know a rape victim. Chances are you know a FEW rape victims. I do not live in a rough area, never have. Rape permeates our culture, on every level.

Its like...

Would you tell holocaust jokes with a survivor in the room? Would you crack out your "My grandad died in one of the camps, he fell out of a guard tower"? If you say yes, you are either lying or an asshole. Well, its the same with rape. Unless you know, you are CERTAIN, that there aint a survivor in the room, don't tell your fucking joke. Unless it is fucking hilarious (Like the above comedy video)

EDIT:

Watcheroftrends said:
Unfortunately, dressing in a sexual manner attracts attention that can be very bad. *SNIP*
Too busy to find the study, but a tiny minority of rapists cite sexual attraction as being anything important. As in, the people that DO the raping dont do it because "She was well fit" they do it for power. Rape is about power, about the weak being controlled by the strong. The guy that tried to rape me, a close personal friend who I trusted (Like the VAST MAJORITY OF RAPISTS.) wasn't interested in me, he wasn't fucking gay. He knew I was Bi though, he knew I was drunk, he had just had a fight with his girlfriend and he wanted power over me, he wanted to "Test" me (His words.)

So no, its not like walking around with all your money on show.

Its more like being human and having a moment of weakness when there are cunts around. Cunts who are your friends, your family. Cunts who want to have power over something because they feel small. Its not "Idealistic" to assume that women should be able to walk the streets at night, it is not even unrealistic. Most rapes are not committed by strangers. Hell, its not about showing a moment of weakness, it is just about being weaker then someone else or percieved as weaker. The guy who tried to rape me KNEW he had the power, he was popular, all bar one of my friends was one of his OLD friends, if I said anything nobody would believe me. Was it my fault for putting my assets on show?

A friend turned up on my doorstep after his mum kicked him out. I was drunk and let him come in to crash on my floor for the night. We started watching a film, he encouraged me to keep drinking (And he was abstaining and sober at the time.). Is this my fault? Really?

And, on that note, go look into some serial rapists. There was that guy caught in London who was breaking into houses are raping OAP's. That was DEFINITELY because he was sexually attracted to them, right? When men are raped in prisons, that is about sexual power, right? When gay men are raped in Iraq, before being murdered (By the police) in horrific ways, that is about sexual attraction right?

See, when feminists, like myself, go on about "Rape Culture" its helpful when people like you appear and sorta prove our points. Nothing you have said has any basis in any known study, nothing you have said has any basis in anything other than victim blaming.
Yes, Rape is about power not physical attraction. A woman could be walking down the street naked and it still wouldn't be her fault if she was raped.

And the important distinction about the joke above is that while it does discuss the topic of rape it doesn't belittle the experience or any victims of rape.
 

Smeatza

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thaluikhain said:
Eddie the head said:
nightwolf667 said:
If you see a group of six women standing in a circle, there's a good bet that one of those women has been raped and also a good bet that another of them will be. It's a sobering statistic, especially for women who face the threat of rape from just walking down the street or going out jogging alone (not even at night!).
Umm. No. It's a one in six chance for each one of those woman. Not there are six women so one has been raped, that's not how statistics work.
My maths says it's about a 1 in 3 chance of at least one, assuming they are taken at random.
You could argue it all day but statistics mean nothing to the individual so trying to break them down to an individual level is useless.

OT: Any joke is going to be offensive to someone somewhere.
And there is no tactful way to tell if that person is present until after the joke is told.
So you can either live your life consciously monitoring and censoring your words to prevent offense.
Or you can learn from experience and apologise as you go.
Both are morally acceptable.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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First off, i took what he said as "Im kicking your arse, just stop trying to block or fight back as your gonna lose anyway. Just stop fighting back and lose". It wasn't a rape joke. Its just because the opponent was a woman, if the opponent was a male, know one would be moaning. An the thing with rape jokes etc is men are the loser. WAIT KEEP READING. For instance, when i worked at a nightclub a woman would grab mens groin and make a comment....men would laugh it off. But, that is sexual assault. Me and everyone just accept it and laugh it off as a joke and a laugh. But if it was a man groping woman, thats arrest and prison. Now im not saying either is acceptable. Anyone groping anyone is wrong. Just that it seems its seen as playful if a woman does it to a guy, than if a man does it to a woman.

As a man. Like many male gamers on this site. We all have mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives and female friends. No man would want a woman raped or abused in any way verbal or physical because we would hate it if that happened to our friends and family. Men and woman are not equal when it comes to rape or abuse. But i also think its not right to scream rape when its a comment that could be taken out of context. Im trying to be understanding and take the middle ground, but two of my friends were raped and i would batter those that did it to death if i could, or hand them by their balls....whatever is worse. Scum of the earth.
 

ShiningAmber

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Are you saying that people who have been raped or know someone that has been raped sometimes don't find jokes about rape funny?

I wonder why.

I'm a survivor. And your joke is not worth the painful reminder of the worst day of my life.
 

Mr F.

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Scott Rothman said:
Mr F. said:
Scott Rothman said:
There isn't inherently wrong with a joke that discusses the topic of rape. The issue is with jokes that are at the expense of victims of rape.

Like, here


Joke that touches on rape and isn't offensive to victims of rape
Dropping in for 30 seconds before going to the pharmacy.

One: Your video made me laugh. (Gonna embed it into your post. You should embed things people)
Two: Because rape is rape, it can never be justified, normalised, and its not ridiculous. See, when I say "What is the difference between a truck load of sand and a truckload of babies? You cannot unload a truckload of sand with a pitch fork" that is ridiculous and fucking stupid. Just ridiculous and just fucking stupid. There will never be a truckload of babies being unloaded with a pitchfork.

You might know someone who knows someone who has been murdered. My dad lost a colleague in Pa Pua New Guinea to a screwdriver during a robbery. You might know someone who has been brutally assaulted, had a friend jumped outside Tesco, he had seven kinds of hell beaten out of him. But that is unlikely.

What is incredibly likely is that you know a rape victim. I mean, bar those specific examples, I know nobody who has been murdered or brutally (As in, hospitalised) assaulted. Yet, from the top of my head, I can name at least 4 rape victims that I knew on a personal level. Oh, wait, five. And, if I had not fought and stuggled, I would be number 6 on that list. Those are just the people that have, on a personal basis, told me about what has happened.

See, that is why Rape is just something you have to be very, very careful about joking about. That vid was fucking hilarious, that is a rape joke done well. But most are not. And you sorta have to remember that chances are you know a rape victim. Chances are you know a FEW rape victims. I do not live in a rough area, never have. Rape permeates our culture, on every level.

Its like...

Would you tell holocaust jokes with a survivor in the room? Would you crack out your "My grandad died in one of the camps, he fell out of a guard tower"? If you say yes, you are either lying or an asshole. Well, its the same with rape. Unless you know, you are CERTAIN, that there aint a survivor in the room, don't tell your fucking joke. Unless it is fucking hilarious (Like the above comedy video)

EDIT:

Watcheroftrends said:
Unfortunately, dressing in a sexual manner attracts attention that can be very bad. *SNIP*
Too busy to find the study, but a tiny minority of rapists cite sexual attraction as being anything important. As in, the people that DO the raping dont do it because "She was well fit" they do it for power. Rape is about power, about the weak being controlled by the strong. The guy that tried to rape me, a close personal friend who I trusted (Like the VAST MAJORITY OF RAPISTS.) wasn't interested in me, he wasn't fucking gay. He knew I was Bi though, he knew I was drunk, he had just had a fight with his girlfriend and he wanted power over me, he wanted to "Test" me (His words.)

So no, its not like walking around with all your money on show.

Its more like being human and having a moment of weakness when there are cunts around. Cunts who are your friends, your family. Cunts who want to have power over something because they feel small. Its not "Idealistic" to assume that women should be able to walk the streets at night, it is not even unrealistic. Most rapes are not committed by strangers. Hell, its not about showing a moment of weakness, it is just about being weaker then someone else or percieved as weaker. The guy who tried to rape me KNEW he had the power, he was popular, all bar one of my friends was one of his OLD friends, if I said anything nobody would believe me. Was it my fault for putting my assets on show?

A friend turned up on my doorstep after his mum kicked him out. I was drunk and let him come in to crash on my floor for the night. We started watching a film, he encouraged me to keep drinking (And he was abstaining and sober at the time.). Is this my fault? Really?

And, on that note, go look into some serial rapists. There was that guy caught in London who was breaking into houses are raping OAP's. That was DEFINITELY because he was sexually attracted to them, right? When men are raped in prisons, that is about sexual power, right? When gay men are raped in Iraq, before being murdered (By the police) in horrific ways, that is about sexual attraction right?

See, when feminists, like myself, go on about "Rape Culture" its helpful when people like you appear and sorta prove our points. Nothing you have said has any basis in any known study, nothing you have said has any basis in anything other than victim blaming.
Yes, Rape is about power not physical attraction. A woman could be walking down the street naked and it still wouldn't be her fault if she was raped.

And the important distinction about the joke above is that while it does discuss the topic of rape it doesn't belittle the experience or any victims of rape.
Its a good joke because it was sensitive and rather jokily taking the piss out of the fact he does not look threatening and yet is seen as a threat. Its understanding and stupid and rather amusing. Its actually a good example of a joke about an incredibly sensitive subject.

Up above someone said something about rights, how its the "Right" of a comedian to tell whatever joke they like, just like it is the "Right" of someone to get offended. This is not about rights. I have the right to stand on a street corner and state that anyone who gets raped deserves it for whatever reason.

Doesn't stop me from being a massive **** for doing so.

Its nice to find another person who agrees with me, although rape apologists are thin on the ground these days. Most of my mates are behind my views and understand just how hard it is to report rape, how hard it is to get someone charged for it and all the rest. I do agree with a female friend of mine though, that there needs to be a separate charge for drunken sex between two drunken parties for I can see that it is wrong that a man can be charged for drunken sex. Yet I can also see that its stupid to give men ANOTHER get out clause.

Its a very touchy subject because it is a very personal subject. It is very hard for any of us to not know a victim of sexual assault or rape, most survivors do not broadcast it.

I get the feeling all of that was off topic. I dunno, I am filled with rage thanks to the other guy I quoted. "Rape Culture" is a thing, that posted is living proof of that. People need to understand that you and I are not saying all rape jokes are bad instantly, or that people are being oversensitive OR under-sensitive, just that it has to be genuinely amusing and rape should not be the punchline.

The whole "Well, he will get what he deserves in prison" *nudgenudgewinkwinksaynomore* is just another level of the issue.

tldr; I dunno why I wrote this, we are in agreement. Rape is about power, if a joke reinforces victim blaming or tries to minimise the damage, it is not worth telling. The reason why it is treated differently from other violent crimes is, if anything, due to the prevalence of the issue and the fact that it is so very personal to so many people.
 

Lovely Mixture

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Everyone is bound to get offended at something.

People should be held accountable for their words, but those who listen should understand that humor means a lot to others. You might not like the humor, but for some people that humor helps them get by. The opposite is true, that humor might be disturbing to people who don't want reminders of the past.

It's up to either side to give respect.

I'm Jewish, I make fun of the Holocaust and crack Jewish jokes all time. Now I had no experience in the Holocaust, but my grandpa did and he made jokes about it till he died. Is that comparable to rape? Maybe, maybe not. But the point is that I'm actually more offended when someone says "you can't joke about that" than when someone makes a joke about it.
 

Froggy Slayer

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RT said:
Father Time said:
RT said:
Rape is the worst. Crime. Ever. Yes, worse than murder: at least killing somebody is fair: disgracing, shaming them and traumatizing their minds as well as their bodies is just inhuman, everybody that has raped should be quartered while being fully conscious.
You're suggesting that people have their limbs be torn off by horses and that's not inhuman?
No, I suggest rapists having their limbs be torn off is not inhuman. Rapists, not people.
God damn it man, stop trying to be edgy and listen to me.

Trying to typify rapists as inhuman monsters is a stupid fucking thing to do because it means that people don't expect that they really exist. They are real human beings, with real flaws and real attributes and who can potentially be anyone that you know.

And as an idealist, I have to believe that there is no one who is beyond rehabilitation.
 

Scott Rothman

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Mr F. said:
SNIP

Its a good joke because it was sensitive and rather jokily taking the piss out of the fact he does not look threatening and yet is seen as a threat. Its understanding and stupid and rather amusing. Its actually a good example of a joke about an incredibly sensitive subject.

Up above someone said something about rights, how its the "Right" of a comedian to tell whatever joke they like, just like it is the "Right" of someone to get offended. This is not about rights. I have the right to stand on a street corner and state that anyone who gets raped deserves it for whatever reason.

Doesn't stop me from being a massive **** for doing so.

Its nice to find another person who agrees with me, although rape apologists are thin on the ground these days. Most of my mates are behind my views and understand just how hard it is to report rape, how hard it is to get someone charged for it and all the rest. I do agree with a female friend of mine though, that there needs to be a separate charge for drunken sex between two drunken parties for I can see that it is wrong that a man can be charged for drunken sex. Yet I can also see that its stupid to give men ANOTHER get out clause.

Its a very touchy subject because it is a very personal subject. It is very hard for any of us to not know a victim of sexual assault or rape, most survivors do not broadcast it.

I get the feeling all of that was off topic. I dunno, I am filled with rage thanks to the other guy I quoted. "Rape Culture" is a thing, that posted is living proof of that. People need to understand that you and I are not saying all rape jokes are bad instantly, or that people are being oversensitive OR under-sensitive, just that it has to be genuinely amusing and rape should not be the punchline.

The whole "Well, he will get what he deserves in prison" *nudgenudgewinkwinksaynomore* is just another level of the issue.

tldr; I dunno why I wrote this, we are in agreement. Rape is about power, if a joke reinforces victim blaming or tries to minimise the damage, it is not worth telling. The reason why it is treated differently from other violent crimes is, if anything, due to the prevalence of the issue and the fact that it is so very personal to so many people.

Comedians CAN say anything they want. Anyone can say pretty much whatever they want. They just shouldn't be surprised when someone calls them out on their bullshit.
 

darlarosa

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I'm just going to throw this out there most people who tell rape jokes have never experienced or had someone close to them experience a flashback (I can't remember the actual term). What most people don't know is that assault/rape survivors often suffer from flashbacks or can't deal with certain things, and while a joke may soften the blow or uncomfortablity for some it can do more damage to others. There are simply times when you don't say things, and in public around a bunch of strangers just don't. You don't know who is a sexual assault or rape survivor. You don't know who has experienced the loss of a child or a young family member. I'm not going to say don't make those jokes at all, but show some discretion, and don't act like because something is a joke your immune from repercussions and people assuming the worst about you.

Just be considerate it's not that hard.
 

LetalisK

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Azure23 said:
Look, would you make a joke about human trafficking? Or about a soldier getting his legs blown off by a grenade?
Yes, I would. And in the latter case, it's usually the victim making the jokes in my experience. However, this doesn't mean I flip the bird at someone and say "Fuck you, I'll say whatever I want!" If I'm in company where a joke could be offensive that should be tempered out of common courtesy. The key is to know your audience.
 

Aramis Night

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arkady said:
Given the sensitive and divisive nature of this topic, I'm pleasantly surprised this thread is still pretty level headed and reasonable. Everyone talk kudos for that.

afroebob said:
"I do agree however that putting rape jokes above things like murder and what not is really fucking stupid, no matter what the situation.
I'm going to quote again the words of a real life victim: "I'd rather he'd have just killed me."

The taboo on rape jokes over murder (and other severe crimes) is not to do with the relative severity.

We could all argue whether a murder or a rape is worse until we're blue, and not get anywhere because some rapes are worse than others, some murders are worse than others and it, frankly, goes into territory where most of couldn't really comprehend it without having been there ourselves.

It's to do with trivialisation.

We are pretty much agreed that - worse than murder or not - a rape is horrible act. But a woman who has been raped is likely to be told it's not a big deal, or even that it's her fault. The police are unlikely to put in a serious investigation - and that's just the obvious stuff. (Read the @everydaysexism twitter feed to see some alarmingly common responses...)

Murder/violent crime, on the other hand, usually triggers full investigations. It's always taken seriously. Conviction rates are much higher.

That's why we can joke about murder - because it's not seen as trivial, and that dissonance can be used to create humour. Rape jokes are often just laughing at those who have already been victimised.

EDIT: Fix bracket error which made the quote format come out wrong.
I think that the attempt for a call to its seriousness as a problem, is actually what has caused rape to be taken less seriously. I think the biggest mistake feminists made was pulling out the 1 in 4 stat(1 in 4 women will be raped). When you paint an issue as being that common, it tends to trivialize it in the minds of people and even normalizes it. And then of course on the other hand there are those of us who have looked into the incredibly dubious stats source and took notice of the terrible methodology used to come to its conclusion and that knowledge also tends to make people less willing to take it and its advocates seriously despite believing that rape is of course wrong and evil.

The whole idea of magically knowing anything about the quantity of unreported rapes is also something that has always amazed me when people claim to have any kind of estimate. If they are unreported, how could you possibly have any kind of stat on those? Its the same dodgy logic that anti-rape advocacy has used to try to say that only 2% of rape claims are false. Meanwhile the majority of the 300+ inmates that the innocence project has proven to be innocent have been from rape cases. And they are a small underfunded outfit.

I just wish that the ones pushing to tell us all that rape happens to almost everyone would quit raping the truth. People are more willing to take on a problem if they feel that fixing it is a more possible scenario, rather than trying to convince us that everyone is a victim or responsible for victimizing others. At that point people just kind of throw up their hands and accept it as normal, when it isn't.

Besides, it would be nice to be able to go outside and be able to have a normal interaction with a woman without her looking at me like i'm some kind of predator. I just don't see how adding to everyone's fear of one another is helpful. Sorry for the tangent. Its just that we tend to trivialize what is common. And perception of this being a very common crime is part of the problem. It is far more common a crime than it should be, but not every guy is out raping every woman either.