On RPG Elements

LTK_70

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Horrible weapons becoming more effective over time is kind of the exact reverse of a difficulty curve.
This so much. I generally don't mind RPG elements in games that aren't RPGs if they're executed right. But if there's one thing that annoys me to no end it's endgame overpowering. Whether it's Mass Effect or Fallout 3 or Bioshock or maybe, just maybe STALKER; Whenever you reach the level cap or maxed skill level, be it early on or at the end, the challenge just stops. If you put at least one minute of thought in your skill point investment rather than just clicking auto-assign every time, you probably played your cards well enough to be damn invincible later on. Same goes for upgradable guns. And if there are no skill points or upgrades involved, then at least the trading system will give you carte blanche. There comes a point in every game with an RPG-style trading system where the amount of money you can spend cannot exceed the amount of money you receive. From some point on in Bioshock, I had to throw away money with every five corpses I looted. To fix this, the traders often screw you over by giving you about ten percent of your items' value when the game starts, which is exactly that inverted difficulty curve again. STALKER is a prime example of this.

Excuse the rant, it's something I needed to get off my chest. To give a beacon of shining hope for RPG elements: Deus Ex did it perfectly. Learn from it.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
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Jul 18, 2009
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ssgt splatter said:
Wow. The Australian Goverment is really anti-fun aren't they.
They probably think that with all the kangaroos and koala bears running around, the Australian public has more than enough fun.
 

vxicepickxv

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Sep 28, 2008
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I'm sure that VPN tunnels will pick up out in Australia when they start the crackdown. For those of you who are uniformed VPN stands for Virtual Private Network, and the tunnels are basically a neutral computer from some point outside of the local internet servers which allows one to connect to any web site, by connecting from the second computer. The only problem with a VPN is that they are generally watching you, and looking for weaknesses in your computer, or if you order things with a credit card, your information for the card.

As for the RPG elements in a non RPG, I can go as far back as River City Ransom for the NES. I'm not really as sure about shooters, although most of the ones I play nowadays do have at least some RPG elements. I spend most of my time playing Fallout 3, which is a first person RPG with some shooter elements.
 

LTK_70

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About the internet filter: The European Union had a proposal like that too. But instead of just restricting access to some websites they don't want you to see, they want to block off the internet altogether, and have internet providers offer you specific websites in packages at a cost, as if you were paying for cable tv. I don't need to tell you how bad that would be. Fortunately, the motion never passed, although I did hear something internet-filtering related happening in France...
 

NeuroShock

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warrenEBB said:
Awesome article (wish it was longer).
this point: "Horrible weapons becoming more effective over time is kind of the exact reverse of a difficulty curve."
really hit me in the face. Has anyone EVER made a game where it gets harder to control the weapons over time? Where you basically level down?
I don't know about leveling down, but weapons getting less effective over time sounds like in Fallout 3 or Far Cry 2 where your weapons degraded over time and did less damage/jammed more frequently/etc. Of course, this was rendered useless by the fact that in both games it took you maybe 10 minutes to find a shiny new replacement.
 

bobc_escapist

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I really hope you DO write about why HD is a fad, and why it's possibly ruining the games industry with cancerous overheads and one-upsmanship.
 

esperandote

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Parasite eve was the first important game i played, it had lots of RPG elements and it's one of my favorite game to the day. health points, magic points/magic boosts, active time, enemies with the previous, weapon upgrading, etc. RE4 please, your far away from it yahtzee.
 

warrenEBB

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NeuroShock: true. Though there were times in Fallout3 where i ran out of ammo, or just got bogged down with crap and it really didn't feel fun. I hope the idea just needs more finesse. (more characters surrounding you, patting you on the back, reinforcing the fact that you aren't MEANT to be a super hero?)

but maybe the idea is just not a good one.
I was just discussing with a friend who plays far more RPGs than me, and he said:
"I think the main purpose of leveling up is to give you tiny rewards for everything you do. The actual customization/upgrade is secondary to the feeling of "I'm doing good things".

Also, leveling up weapons & stats is mostly a way for a player to FEEL like they are better at the game when they ARE NOT actually better at it. (Especially with RPGS, because you can't really "get better" at menu selecting)."
which kind of made me despair. hmm. HMMM. I feel like you should still be able to find rare/cool weapons, you should just have shrapnel in your shoulder that makes it harder to aim. as an example. hmm. Maybe I was thinking more of a proper FPS difficulty curve than proper rpg integration? hmm.
 

nomzod

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ThePeiceOfEden said:
Some RPG elements in shooters fit. Like in Ratchet and Clank
Insomniac (the company that brought us the achievement system) gets sidelined again. The upgrade system in Ratchet and Clank is awesome! When my hot lava gun kills enough robot chickens and suddenly starts spewing flaming hot meteors (with Poison!) We've got a Painkiller situation on our hands.

(and yes, R&C has a gun which shoots shuriken and lightning)
 

Wolcik

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I like RPGs but since mainstream shooter games've taken some of that then there aren't so many good ones coming out right now :( by mixing games we don't always make happy both genre fans - sometimes not even one side is pleased...

If there was a bear then I'd rather kill it Chuck Norris style XD

Where's money in banning games? Unless there is, my country won't ban them XD
 

awesomeClaw

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What if they censor/Ban EVERYTHING! violent flash games. porn, sides where people can express there honest opinion.EVERYTHING! The mere thought creeps me out to no end.
 

Uncompetative

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For starters, it's selling the game short. In today's age adult gamers have busy professional lives and child gamers are all hopped up on Ritalin and sugary breakfast cereals, so first impressions are important. And the first impression will be a game full of poorly-balanced guns made from glue and sand, with aim waver like there are hummingbirds worrying at your fingers. Horrible weapons becoming more effective over time is kind of the exact reverse of a difficulty curve.
Agreed. Except it doesn't have to be this way. A multiplayer FPS can have "classes", so you start at each spawn with your newly selected bod, who not only happens to have a sniper rifle, but the skills to use it - and a nice frondy costume to boot:



You can pick up weapons from dead bods, but a sniper shouldn't expect to do all that well with a pair of sub-machine guns. No John Woo. Yet, if he were to stick with them, the more positive kills he got (that is, enemy kills that are entirely his and not helped by an assist which he then survives for 5 seconds for the "kudos" to register) the more his hidden RPG stats would auto-allocate. Also, if he came to prefer the sub-machine gun over the sniper rifle he would be slightly less acquainted with that weapon were he to go back to it. So, a bod would be best sticking with the weapon from their own class that they had been "trained in" and they would not be instantaneously expert with an unfamiliar weapon or vehicle.

Yes, they would get better with their spawn weapon the longer they used it, but only provided that they used it well. Miss enough times and their skill would nudge back down, eventually slightly below where it was when they came in "green". The original Halo gave your Marines a kind of RPG stat so that the longer you kept them in combat, alive, the better at sniping they got, etc. The game would just have to throw more enemies at you to re-balance this, so in getting more skilled you are asking the game for a more unnerving challenge. Difficulty then needn't be selected at the outset of a game - just give it to them on Normal, drop quietly down to Easy if they die at a particular checkpoint or between completed objectives 10 times in a row, just so they don't quit the game in frustration forever and never buy the sequel; also, ramp the difficulty up to Heroic as they demonstrate their in-game skill, by hardly dying once (leave Legendary for a second playthrough unlock once all levels of the game have been beaten on Heroic - don't do the damned irritating thing of making you reattempt from the beginning of the level/game to adjust the difficulty when you have no idea how hard the developer has pitched it).

For main course, it forces you to invest in weapons that may become obsolete. Resident Evil 4 pulled a very mean dick move - after spending the first chapter blowing sackfuls of zombie farmers' stolen pocket money on upgrades for the shotgun, rifle and pistol, suddenly the merchant remembers he has some better models you can trade in for, which have to be upgraded from scratch. So you either write off the upgrades as a loss or stick stubbornly to the inferior models, and then who's the Luddite?
Surely, this Merchant could redeem the value of these upgrades? It is unfair to criticise a game mechanic based upon a poor implementation.

And for pudding, different weapons are used at different times. Upgrading RPG-style only makes sense if you've got several methods for dealing with the same problem - that's when you choose what sort of character you are. That's role playing. But in a shooter, if you're faced with snipers and have been plugging all your points into shotguns and pistols, then you get to eat shit on toast.
This can be easily solved with some lateral thinking. The problem with a Campaign-based FPS having RPG elements would be as you described, yet I am starting to feel a bit lonely playing these one-man army games and would like to have some NPCs to fight alongside me and maybe order out to flank the enemy, take stupid risks, etc. Now, it occurred to me that games could have you Hot-Swap between each line-of-sight member of your team (as in Battlefield: Modern Combat), which were each specialist classes with their own independently tracked RPG stats and character customisation - one of the best things about Oblivion was the character creator, I don't understand why the FPS genre doesn't support this.

So, playing a Campaign with just 3 NPC allies would be a bit like a mix of Full Spectrum Warrior and Halo 3 Co-op with your mates controlled by AI that knew how to take cover, make sensible pathfinding courses under-fire (not necessarily straight from A to B), suppress targets as you moved and only move when you did the same for them (unless next to a truck about to explode). None of them would be as good as you so in any given situation you would determine which of them you needed to be and Swap into their head to use their skills and equipment at the position they happened to then be in. Some form of target-identification would be required from you to mark a finite set of locations to cover, but this would be as fast as looking at them and giving a heads-up to your team with click of the thumbstick to keep it arcade-y.

By effectively being 4 different classes on one mission, you escape the trap of a single RPG stat-evolved role.
 

The Great JT

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I'm all in favor of keeping RPG out of my action beat-em-up, especially since most of the time you're not gonna get Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, but it can be well implemented. But then again, if you're gonna make an action game with RPG elements, why not just make an action-RPG?
 

Kilo24

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RPG elements nominally give developers an easy way to reward players for playing, to improve the character over time so that the game feels different, to reduce frustration by letting players improve not directly through storyline progression to get past difficult parts (and enabling grinding sometimes), and to diversify characters by making them play differently based on the development choices made.

If you notice the majority of games today with RPG elements, they don't. Rather than giving a choice between rock, paper and scissors (and letting you choose only one to keep upgraded throughout the game) they give you a choice between rock, pointy rock and big rock. Either way's a trap and it shows that they've missed the point.

Normally they let you upgrade skill with weapons; frequently this is done in a way that makes the game worse because it discourages you from trying the other weapons. To legitimately improve character diversity, any choices should be a viable tool in accomplishing mission objectives - to do that well, the game needs to be deep enough to let you try multiple approaches. Most games aren't.

Another use for RPG elements is in having a large vague experience/money bar that you can expect to fill through a common set of activities like combat. When they want (or get enough exp to level up) they can spend this on abilities to improve their character, so they're always working towards a goal regardless of whether they're going forward in the storyline. This way, a developer has an easy method to reward any number of activities (like disarming mines or picking locks in Knights of the Old Republic.) Prototype did this well, giving clear and obvious new abilities to people who saved up for them. Other games castrate the point by automatically leveling up enemies to your level so you're actually punished for playing the game, but that's another rant.

Other than that, RPG elements are a fad like regenerating health or spiffy physics engines or lives in platformers or game over screens. Most developers include them because they expect them to be in a good game, not because they've deeply thought about their merits and drawbacks.
 

Skratt

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RPG elements in FPS games are pointless and retarded. Strait up do not add anything at all to a shooter. This has been demonstrated by the vast number of Quake, Team Fortress, Counter-Strike, and many of the various shooters that still gather players, if only in small crowds.

And yet, people seem to love, no they seem to NEED them. I often wonder if our Ritalin filled society has somehow gone off the deep end with our OCD tendencies that tedium and grinding have replaced fun and teamwork (skill) in order for many to enjoy a game.

When did the carrot of simple enjoyment of the game get replaced with a veritable cornucopia of cookies and reach-arounds that many gamers now feel they need just to call a game decent?
 

Aardvark

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If you're going to make some kind of FPS/RPG hybrid that will take the gaming world by storm, cure cancer and reverse global warming, you've got to build your FPS around your RPG. The RPG has to be intertwined with the story, otherwise it is going to feel tacked on and useless. Put some reason for Joe Silent to be wandering around, slowly getting better at shooting whatever is trying to punch him in the cock today. Being dropped into a game as an ex-marine badass, who already has several diplomas and doctorates in destroying the shit out of things, then finding out that since your last adventure, you forgot how to hit the broadside of a barn from within the barn annoys the shit out of me.

I'm all for the Government's proposed internet legislation. As long as they use it to protect me from Bears. Bears are godless killing machines that are out to destroy Christmas.
 

CK76

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Works better in some genres than others. I do agree on RE5 spending all that money to upgrade something, then getting a new version that starts off worse, but upgrading it to be better was rarely a fun choice to make.