online gaming sexism stories

[Smeatza]

You, and other people seem to be reaching the same conclusion.

We're going to need to chalk this up to a miscommunication on my part, because I do not believe that at all.

Fair enough.

It is, but I am well within my rights to judge whether their judgement is fair or not.

Fair is kind of irrelevant, because creepy is such a subjective term. What if I find a guy annoying? How you can you say whether that is "fair" or not? What I find annoying is totally down to my own preferences. If someone finds you off-putting, that's really up to them.

Alright then, call 'em creepy, but like you say it's a subjective term so I'll still disagree with you.
However the terms misogynist and sexist are not subjective and therefore are completely inappropriate in the circumstances I describe.

I have seen many instances both in this thread and on the linked website, where people have been labeled creepy, misogynist and, yes demonised for such innocent behaviour. If you disagree that message is innocent/non threatening then we are at an impasse.

That is a cherry picked example, though. There are PLENTY of examples going the other way. I still maintain that it is not fair to characterize the entire website as a "witch hunt". If it is, they're finding plenty of genuine witches.

*Balberoth Disagrees With This Post*

Like I've stated many times, I'm not defending harassment. It's not a cherry picked example because most of the posts on that web site are, like you say, harassment, and therefore not applicable to what I'm describing.
Yeah they do find plenty of witches, but as you can see from the example I provided, some innocents get caught in the fray, and I think that qualifies me to call it a figurative witch hunt. It's not a subjective term but it has quite a loose meaning.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The threat is coming from the potentially violence, not the insult. They are separate. Furthermore, motivations for violence tends to be a lot narrower then it is from an insult. While I can understand the atmosphere you speak of, I have to disagree as you lump in two things to the same category. A threat of violence and a fear of violence is something well worth stopping, universally.

Eh, we're into the discussion of whether or not words have power now, and I'm not sure that's a road either of us wants to go down. Suffice to say I've seen enough people kill themselves due to verbal abuse that I'm in the "they certainly do" camp. They might not be as immediate as a punch to the face, but they're plenty damaging to the spirit.

That it happens to a woman doesn't make it suddenly any worse. It is still bad, still needs to be stopped.

It is notable in the case of women because the harrassment is so systemic and commonplace with them. Naturally I am not a proponent of it when the target is male.

How about basic moderation, liberal use of block/ignore/mute/report functions and a report/repeal system that is fair and functional. Rather then censor people, have their actions and words be seen, and then judged if appropriate for the community they are in. Best part about all of this, it is not only protecting all parts of the demographic but it applies nicely to cover all bases based on individual guidelines set up by the individual games. I would rather take and deal with assholes for being assholes first, and then see what is left of the racist and sexist variety. My guess, not really any at all. If you get rid of the ones who harass regardless of gender, would there be the same atmosphere you mentioned before? If you get rid of the ones threatening violence regardless of sexual orientation, would there be the same atmosphere? Once you untie the two aspects and deal with the true threat, I have to imagine things improving kinda universally.

Do appreciate I said "censure" and not "censor". There's a fairly fundamental difference there.

I think there are probably a few more genuine "sexists" out there than you appear to believe though, or at the very least misogynists. Particularly of the "how dare these frosty bitches reject my advances" stripe.

If you look back at my post, you will see I had added a bit after my initial post. I tend to edit after posting to make sure I don't make spelling errors too badly and to make sure I didn't miss something. I assume, as I had to copy and paste that last part after I had already quoted you, that you do the same.

I did see that, long after the fact. My bad.

*Balberoth May or May Not Disagree With This Post*

 

[BloatedGuppy]

However the terms misogynist and sexist are not subjective and therefore are completely inappropriate in the circumstances I describe.

Yes, I would most certainly agree with that.

Like I've stated many times, I'm not defending harassment. It's not a cherry picked example because most of the posts on that web site are, like you say, harassment, and therefore not applicable to what I'm describing.

Yeah they do find plenty of witches, but as you can see from the example I provided, some innocents get caught in the fray, and I think that qualifies me to call it a figurative witch hunt. It's not a subjective term but it has quite a loose meaning.

I think we've chased this down as far as we can take it. Ultimately, I do think it is the responsibility of guys (or girls) to own their own behavior when it comes to having their advances rejected. People are going to find you undesirable, it's a fact of life. However, just because someone asks you out on a date, that person is not necessarily a sexist brute, and viewing all men through a haze of paranoia and suspicion isn't doing anyone any favors. Is that fair?

 

[Smeatza]

I wouldn't go that far, the term "witch hunt" implies that only innocents are being "caught" (after all, they didn't catch any "real" witches) and that clearly isn't the case here.

Maybe to you, I know that at least in my countries media (the UK) it's been used with varying meanings.
Our Prime Minister used the term with a different meaning to Phillip Schofield recently. Look up the names and you'll find it.

I think we've chased this down as far as we can take it. Ultimately, I do think it is the responsibility of guys (or girls) to own their own behavior when it comes to having their advances rejected. People are going to find you undesirable, it's a fact of life. However, just because someone asks you out on a date, that person is not necessarily a sexist brute, and viewing all men through a haze of paranoia and suspicion isn't doing anyone any favors. Is that fair?

Certainly, I've enjoyed our discussion.

 

[Aeonknight]

Can't say I've seen much of any real instance of sexism. most of them pretty much don't use voice communication, and even the ones that do don't get harassed that much (at least from the games I was there for.)

Hell by now the "make me a sandwich" phrase almost seems like a in-joke between guys than an actual insult to the gender it's supposed to be berating. Would not surprise me at all if it was still actually thrown around though... sadly.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'd like to add that I spend a fair bit of time playing games with my girlfriend, and it's great fun, if more people want to do that then it might pay to be a little more careful when trash-talking, as even if what you say isn't strictly sexist it might still put women and girls off the hobby, which can hardly be a good thing.

My girlfriend's online time in MMOs has been surprisingly harassment light over the years, although she was put off her first ever WoW guild when she was introduced to the guild tank, Jewkiller. Her great-grandpa died in Auschwitz.

Frankly the level of trash talking online is enough to put ME off the hobby, sometimes, never mind her.

 

[runic knight]

The threat is coming from the potentially violence, not the insult. They are separate. Furthermore, motivations for violence tends to be a lot narrower then it is from an insult. While I can understand the atmosphere you speak of, I have to disagree as you lump in two things to the same category. A threat of violence and a fear of violence is something well worth stopping, universally.

Eh, we're into the discussion of whether or not words have power now, and I'm not sure that's a road either of us wants to go down. Suffice to say I've seen enough people kill themselves due to verbal abuse that I'm in the "they certainly do" camp. They might not be as immediate as a punch to the face, but they're plenty damaging to the spirit.

they are. But I have seen words with no mention of race, sex or sexual orientation do the same. It is intent to cause harm with words that is what is causing the bad feelings. Loser. Freak. Worthless. It is not racial slurs that cause people to commit suicide, it is a combination of emotional and mental situations and problems. People antagonizing will never help, but it is not because they antagonize while using someone's race that pushes them past the point of no return.

It is notable in the case of women because the harrassment is so systemic and commonplace with them. Naturally I am not a proponent of it when the target is male.

That is good. Would not just "get rid of harassment" then be the way to address things rather then "stop sexism"?

As a side not, I have a sort of thought pertaining to why women are more targeted by that sort of behavior then men. Relates to basic data about the number of straight males to females, and the over-saturation of male players in many games in general. Bit more below.

Do appreciate I said "censure" and not "censor". There's a fairly fundamental difference there.

I think there are probably a few more genuine "sexists" out there than you appear to believe though, or at the very least misogynists. Particularly of the "how dare these frosty bitches reject my advances" stripe.

I don't make any idea about the true numbers as we have no real data there. I don't think labeling anyone who insults a female and she gets offended as "sexist" is the answer though. Yes, there are plenty of assholes out there who are upset their egos are bruised when their advances are denied, I don't deny it. I just don't think that alone makes them sexist or misogynist. Again, I would love to get some real evaluations and indepth study into the mindset of the people like that. I'd wager that most of the people like that are entitled in general, regardless of gender, and it is just what they seek that has their responses coming off as more misogynist. General population is straight, so for a relationship, they would naturally seek women more often then men. With the numbers out there, you'd get more of them seeking women and, as a result of their behavior, more women reporting being harassed. Though for how they react to men, I wouldn't be surprised if these harassers aren't the same sort of asshats who milk guild banks for extra spending cash or feel entitled to ninja-ing the best loot or to camp spawns. Different actions, though if there was some underlying connecting theme, it would make sense, would it not? Similar to how much of rape is reported to be connected to an underlying theme of power rather then actually sexual attraction, could this not be a less extreme version of the same sort of motivation?

I did see that, long after the fact. My bad.

it's cool, it happens lol.

 

[Silvershadowfire]

I myself haven't been on the receiving end of sexism in particular, except one case where in the MMORPG I play (Aion) someone followed me around in the main city for a while asking if I had a boyfriend.

That being said there are ways and means even on the Internet of being respectful and polite. Posting 'show me your boobs' is NOT appropriate.

As a suggestion to all those socially awkward nerds out there, if you're interested in a girl the best way to get to know them is to actually, oh, get to know them. Talk to them online, ask polite questions that have nothing to do with bust size and hair colour.

To me, calling someone a '******' or 'homo' is as much sexual harassment as calling someone a 'whore', '*****' or any other derogatory term. I am aware that a lot of the time that language just pops out; it's become part of the culture, and the person using it half the time probably isn't meaning it as anything but a means to get out their own anger and frustration.

That still doesn't make it right. We can't allow 'levels' of harassment online to be acceptable, and splitting hairs as to if that harassment is sexual or not is missing the point. ALL harassment is wrong, so ALL harassment is unacceptable, so ALL harassment must stop.

Argument(in the original use of the term) and debate is good. Trolling and harassment is bad. And that, IMHO is the long and short of it.

 

[Smooth Operator]

What the bloody balls... you people still believe it's only sexism when thrown towards women?
And that all conversations you might dislike are automatically sexist?

Well dear flipping heck do we have some damn big foundations to build before this topic is even discussed.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

they are. But I have seen words with no mention of race, sex or sexual orientation do the same. It is intent to cause harm with words that is what is causing the bad feelings. Loser. Freak. Worthless. It is not racial slurs that cause people to commit suicide, it is a combination of emotional and mental situations and problems. People antagonizing will never help, but it is not because they antagonize while using someone's race that pushes them past the point of no return.

Racial or gender or sexuality based slurs are particularly problematic. If someone calls me a fat loser, I can think "Well, I'll go lose weight and get a better job and show you!". If someone says my clothes suck, I can buy nicer clothes. If someone mocks my athletic ability, I can practice and get better. If I'm a woman, I'd have to go to pretty extraordinary lengths to get a dick, at which point I'd be a part of an even more abused demographic.

We do differentiate between types of harassment. If I say "I hate Jack because Jack is stupid", you might think I'm an asshole, but it's really not that remarkable. If I say "I hate Jack because Jack is black" eyebrows are getting raised.

That is good. Would not just "get rid of harassment" then be the way to address things rather then "stop sexism"?

I think by working on sexism, racism, etc people are trying to stop harassment, they're just working from the top down.

I don't make any idea about the true numbers as we have no real data there. I don't think labeling anyone who insults a female and she gets offended as "sexist" is the answer though. Yes, there are plenty of assholes out there who are upset their egos are bruised when their advances are denied, I don't deny it. I just don't think that alone makes them sexist or misogynist. Again, I would love to get some real evaluations and indepth study into the mindset of the people like that. I'd wager that most of the people like that are entitled in general, regardless of gender, and it is just what they seek that has their responses coming off as more misogynist. General population is straight, so for a relationship, they would naturally seek women more often then men. With the numbers out there, you'd get more of them seeking women and, as a result of their behavior, more women reporting being harassed. Though for how they react to men, I wouldn't be surprised if these harassers aren't the same sort of asshats who milk guild banks for extra spending cash or feel entitled to ninja-ing the best loot or to camp spawns. Different actions, though if there was some underlying connecting theme, it would make sense, would it not? Similar to how much of rape is reported to be connected to an underlying theme of power rather then actually sexual attraction, could this not be a less extreme version of the same sort of motivation?

I think men are encouraged to be domineering, aggressive and demanding. It's part of the culturally promoted masculine role we're expected to attain. In many guys, this manifests in them being completely insufferable assholes for about a decade. So that's part of it. We also have the bitterness that comes from frustrated sexual advances, which can manifest as misogyny and rants about the "friend zone". I couldn't even begin to say to what degree a lot of this stems from genuine fear of and/or hatred of women, and how much of it is just assholes being assholes. I do think "masculinity" in general is in terrible fucking shape and in serious need of a revolution or redefinition, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

What the bloody balls... you people still believe it's only sexism when thrown towards women?

No one said that, Mr. K. Calm down.

Also...

 

[Ragsnstitches]

What the bloody balls... you people still believe it's only sexism when thrown towards women?
And that all conversations you might dislike are automatically sexist?

Well dear flipping heck do we have some damn big foundations to build before this topic is even discussed.

Okay, let's discuss it from the beginning.

Issues of abuse towards men and women are not mutually exclusive. Both can be discussed interdependently or individually with no side taking away value from the other.

However, in the case of gaming, the prominent source of abuse, outside of racial slurs and sexuality based mockery, is gender. This is by and large weighted against women more then men given the long history of Games being without question, a male orientated environment first and foremost.

So when people discuss the issues of sexism in games, it's usually countering the misogynistic side of the spectrum.

I have never been singled out and assaulted because of my gender. Maybe my sexuality has been called into question on occasion (not exclusive towards men) or my race/culture was targeted for abuse (not exclusive towards men), but the mere fact I have a penis and produce larger quantities of testosterone and bodily hair then the opposite sex, has never been the subject of shit flinging in my extensive experience.

However, having breasts, a vagina, ovaries and a tendency to produce oestrogen, seems to be the subject of much frustration for some folk in the gaming circuits (very much exclusive towards females). This I have seen, more frequently then I have ever experienced mockery directed at myself.

EDIT: It shouldn't even be a factor, but just so you know, there are benefits for men in an environment that doesn't persecute women. These benefits differ in value from person to person, but generally, these scenes where these issues occur are not the most inviting of places to begin with so discrediting them and promoting more friendly atmospheres is a boon right off the bat, forgetting the gender politics altogether.

 

[runic knight]

Racial or gender or sexuality based slurs are particularly problematic. If someone calls me a fat loser, I can think "Well, I'll go lose weight and get a better job and show you!". If someone says my clothes suck, I can buy nicer clothes. If someone mocks my athletic ability, I can practice and get better. If I'm a woman, I'd have to go to pretty extraordinary lengths to get a dick, at which point I'd be a part of an even more abused demographic.

We do differentiate between types of harassment. If I say "I hate Jack because Jack is stupid", you might think I'm an asshole, but it's really not that remarkable. If I say "I hate Jack because Jack is black" eyebrows are getting raised.

But people get mocked for how they look, size and shape of facial features, size and shape of other physical features, geological location of origin and countless other aspects which are not changeable either. See, the problem here is we have some guy going "I hate Jack so I will insult every aspect of him, including race." and just reducing that to "I hate Jack because of his race." the two are different, and far too often people assume the later when seeing the former.

I think by working on sexism, racism, etc people are trying to stop harassment, they're just working from the top down.

Seem...wasteful of time and energy. Why worry about a specific demographic when the issue at large is a problem to everyone affected by it. Stop harassment, including but not limited to what is based on gender/bigotry/whatever. This just seems like, well, hard to put into words. Like, it is the most obvious example of harassment and instead of going after the big dog in the room, it is picking something symbolic and trying to solve that. It just seems like a limp-wristed attempt to look like trying to fix things instead of doing the heavy lifting required to actually change things.

I think men are encouraged to be domineering, aggressive and demanding. It's part of the culturally promoted masculine role we're expected to attain. In many guys, this manifests in them being completely insufferable assholes for about a decade. So that's part of it. We also have the bitterness that comes from frustrated sexual advances, which can manifest as misogyny and rants about the "friend zone". I couldn't even begin to say to what degree a lot of this stems from genuine fear of and/or hatred of women, and how much of it is just assholes being assholes. I do think "masculinity" in general is in terrible fucking shape and in serious need of a revolution or redefinition, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

I wonder. I mean think about it, the near antithesis of masculinity, the quiet, awkward, introverted and passive nerd types are becoming more main stream. Culture is not pushing the traits of manly men as hard anymore and instead seems to have shifted to a "me" culture. In some ways this still encourages the old definiton of masculine, but in others it offers more avenue to still be respected and have power. Look no further then Bill Gates to see both one of the most powerful and wealthy people and yet also one of the more unassuming people.
I can see how perception of cultural expectation can add fuel to the fire, but the level of asshatary online is far beyond that alone. I know anonymity plays a huge role, as people think they can get away with it, but it still seems to be lacking something. The pressures to be a masculine male are less now then before in history, and while I don't doubt they influence things some, I can't imagine them taking and bringing about 4chan levels of douchebags. There has to be something beyond that.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I know i cant exactly stop people from debating said issue but Id like to try to keep this more about stories and research than about debate.