OSHA SUSPENDS Biden's Mandate, SCATHING Court Opinion Calls It "STAGGERINGLY Overbroad"

[Phoenixmgs]

So, if the passport will not increaee jab intake, are the antivaxxers staying at home? Or illegally creating their own passports?

What does it matter? I haven't asked a single person if they're vaxxed because I couldn't care less. Two co-workers didn't get the vaccine until last month as it was "mandated" and it didn't matter to me at all and we all spend hours in the same room together. Why would I concern myself with some super super super low danger that's far less than the danger of driving to work? And if I did care and purposefully avoided them every way that I could and treated them like a bag of germs instead of a human being, you think that would've made them more likely to get vaxxed?

And what place in the US besides NYC or possibly some places in Cali are implementing passports of any kind? Even in NYC, no businesses actually care about enforcing the vax requirement. Why do you wanna shut these people out of society? The benefits you gain is less than the harms to society that you're causing. If the mandate went through like nobody would be able to fly anywhere because 30% of pilots aren't vaccinated and 50% of flight attendants aren't vaccinated. And guess what is more dangerous than flying? Driving, which is what you'd be pushing people to do then if they can't fly. IIRC from an article I saw awhile back, transmission on planes is almost nonexistent so why are you forcing someone to get vaccinated when it's not harming anyone flying and then actively killing people that would've flied but now are driving and getting in fatal car accidents? Everything you do has harms and benefits and you only do something if the benefits outweigh the harms. Lastly, people previously infected have as good or better immunity than those only vaccinated so why are you wanting to force those people to get vaccinated for no benefit? Just to make you feel safer while not actually making you safer? Please tell me how say an 8 year old that had covid that you forced to get vaccinated is making you or anyone any safer to go to a restaurant?

That's pretty normal wording for a court ruling, it's not particularly out of the ordinary. What it represents is just that particular court's view (the Fifth Circuit being a particularly conservative one, note).

But I'm not actually disputing whether or not it's illegal or not. What I find off-putting is the clickbaity hyperbole. Nobody says "X DESTROYS Y!!!" unless you're on a pretty childish or partisan source.




Right, so you're basing what the current UK population believes on the smallpox vaccination effort of the 1850s? We've changed somewhat. Well, most of us.

The current UK government is not basing its public health policy on this stuff. The current UK government is basing its public health policy on protecting business income, balanced occasionally with a hesitation to look too mean or stupid.

"X DESTROYS Y!!!" isn't the title of the video. "Staggeringly Overbroad" is the title which is directly from the fucking court's report. You can read the report yourself. It's not clickbait, that's literally what the court said.

Has human psychology changed since 1850? The way to get people to do something is not forcing it on them and shoving it down their throats, it's not shaming people for not doing something either. Again, HIV pandemic showed us this as well if you think 1850 is too long ago for basic human psychology. You treat people like humans and sincerely acknowledge and answer their concerns. A person on the fence over the vaccine is going to be even more against it when you force it on them, but if you just treat them like a human fucking being, you can get somewhere. A lot of people don't like the MRNA vaccines because they're too new, yet where's the article saying the J&J vaccine isn't MRNA so if that's your concern, we got something for you? Where's the article breaking down the fact that if you're a guy, the J&J is the safer vaccine as myocarditis happens almost exclusively in guys in the MRNA vaccines so take that instead, and if you're a gal, the MRNA vaccines (Pfizer/Moderna) are safer because the blood clots from the J&J vaccine are almost exclusively in women? That really fucking simple messaging and education is non-existent in the US.

Here's a perfect example of why mandating things for every single person is stupid. Louis Rossmann (Apple repairman and advocate for Right to Repair) will not be complying with NYC's mandate because one of his employees that got vaccinated got myocarditis, which resulted in a mild heart attack and basically lost 5-6 months of his life. And he even talks about how you get compliance from people in the real world, you treat them like a human being. He even points out how vaccine mandates aren't a progressive way to get people vaccinated. It's like solving crime with more police vs figuring out why crime happens in the 1st place and fixing it there.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

The senate is voting to block the vaccine mandate for private businesses this week. I believe they have already nixed the mandate for federal employees but that might still just be in limbo. Not sure.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm against mandates. I would recommend people get at least a baseline two dose vaccine but if you don't want it you should not be force by anyone to get it. We already have laws on the books about medical information being private and businesses cannot chose to hire you on whether or not you have medical conditions nor can anyone ask you about medical history. This is no different.

Really instead of a vaccine mandate they should impliment laws against letting employees work while sick. The amount of people that go to work on a day basis with colds and early or lingering flu symptoms is insane, because sick leave and vacation time is so limited on people that they end up having to work when they really shouldn't.

The J&J vax is one and done!!!

You do know that millions of Americans are subject to vaccine mandates through work and school and have been for literally centuries, right?

Enroll in a public (and most private) elementary/middle/high school? Vaccine requirements.
Enroll in a college/university? Vaccine requirements.
Work in the medical industry? Vaccine requirements.
Join the military? Vaccine requirements.
Go to visit a foreign country and want to return without quarantining? Vaccine requirements.
Work in a food-handling industry? Vaccine requirements.

Doing stuff that is legal is fine, doing stuff that is illegal is not fine. How is that so hard to understand?

Isn’t there historical precedent for vaccine mandates? I swear America had one during the Spanish flu epidemic.

If there is, why didn't the Biden administration use such precedent if there was one vs back-dooring it through OSHA? And if this mandate was deemed legal, do you have any idea what precedent that is gonna set? They could then literally put through that you can't drink pop or eat at McDonalds for lunch, that would save more lives than vaccine mandate would so why not do that as well?

It's an opinion piece about the vaccine mandate in Austria talking near exclusively about old British history...

Personally i am all for a mandate. Here in Germany we have tremendous trouble with the forth wave. We only stopped prioritising in summer and only early fall you could say everyone who wanzed should have gotten two doses already. So this is the first wave where pretty much all the unvaccinated are anti-vaxxers. And people start blaming them. A lot.
Before, anti-vaxxers where only loud and obnoxious but could be ignored as long as they were not violent (some were unfortunately). Now it is "Anti-vaxxers have ruined our Christmas holydays" and the other side starts to get increasingly hostile as well.

I think, if we had had a mandate, some people might have complained but followed it anyway and the discussion would have been over long ago.

Shaming and blaming doesn't work, we know it doesn't work so why keep doing it? Why would anti-vaxxers ruin Christmas? I've done every single holiday since the pandemic started, even Easter 2020, and we were able to enjoy one last Christmas with our grandmother. Why are anti-vaxxers causing this wave? Israel has like everyone vaxxed and boosted and they just had a bigger wave than Germany (when comparing populations).

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Why would I concern myself with some super super super low danger that's far less than the danger of driving to work?

You're less likely to get shot than you are to get into an accident going to work.

Guess I better walk into Crip territory and start screaming the N word since by your logic that's less dangerous than driving to work.

 

[Fallen Soldier]

The J&J vax is one and done!!!



Doing stuff that is legal is fine, doing stuff that is illegal is not fine. How is that so hard to understand?


If there is, why didn't the Biden administration use such precedent if there was one vs back-dooring it through OSHA? And if this mandate was deemed legal, do you have any idea what precedent that is gonna set? They could then literally put through that you can't drink pop or eat at McDonalds for lunch, that would save more lives than vaccine mandate would so why not do that as well?



Shaming and blaming doesn't work, we know it doesn't work so why keep doing it? Why would anti-vaxxers ruin Christmas? I've done every single holiday since the pandemic started, even Easter 2020, and we were able to enjoy one last Christmas with our grandmother. Why are anti-vaxxers causing this wave? Israel has like everyone vaxxed and boosted and they just had a bigger wave than Germany (when comparing populations).

Because McDonald’s isn’t the epic center of a viral out break.

 

[Silvanus]

"X DESTROYS Y!!!" isn't the title of the video. "Staggeringly Overbroad" is the title which is directly from the fucking court's report. You can read the report yourself. It's not clickbait, that's literally what the court said.

The court's report capitalised it like a tabloid headline, did it? Described the ruling up-front as "good news", wearing their colours on their sleeve?

Aaaaand none of the rest of the rant has any relevance to what I said, so I'll just snip it out.

 

[Satinavian]

Shaming and blaming doesn't work, we know it doesn't work so why keep doing it? Why would anti-vaxxers ruin Christmas? I've done every single holiday since the pandemic started, even Easter 2020, and we were able to enjoy one last Christmas with our grandmother. Why are anti-vaxxers causing this wave? Israel has like everyone vaxxed and boosted and they just had a bigger wave than Germany (when comparing populations).

Well, Christmas markets and other events were forbidden after the numbers rose too high. There are quite important for some regions and people got pretty upset about it. Even private meetings get limited for number of participants over Christmas. Then there are also travel restrictions though those are generally managable. Still made visiting families harder.

And of course anti-vaxxers are blamed. That it is still mostly unvaccinated people in the hospitals shows who gets it. After begging them half a year to get vaxxinated to avoid any further lockdown, they now are in the focus of the ire of the rest of the population.

 

[Buyetyen]

If there is,

Let me Google that for you.

Shaming and blaming doesn't work, we know it doesn't work so why keep doing it?

Treating anti-vaxxers like rational adults didn't work either. Probably because they aren't. We've had the vaccine for months and yet we're facing another wave of the virus with the cold season approaching. You and people like you have prolonged this pandemic and probably made it worse. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't be pissed about that.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

You're less likely to get shot than you are to get into an accident going to work.

Guess I better walk into Crip territory and start screaming the N word since by your logic that's less dangerous than driving to work.

I'm pretty sure the chances of you getting shot specifically screaming the N word in Crip territory is greater than getting severely injured/killed from a car accident. It's like getting shot while driving on a highway is highly unlikely unless, of course, you're on the Dan Ryan in Chicago. It's like saying you have a 0.2-0.3% chance of dying of covid because that's the average but when you break it down to your group, it's gonna be vastly different than average.

Because McDonald’s isn’t the epic center of a viral out break.

It kills more people than covid though. (Maybe not McDonald's specifically but fast food in general does for sure).

The court's report capitalised it like a tabloid headline, did it? Described the ruling up-front as "good news", wearing their colours on their sleeve?

Aaaaand none of the rest of the rant has any relevance to what I said, so I'll just snip it out.

If that's what the court said, how is it clickbait? A court stopping something that's highly illegal isn't "good news"?

The fact that having everyone get a specific medical procedure when there's groups where it wouldn't be beneficial does not have relevance to mandating everyone get something? That's news to me.

Well, Christmas markets and other events were forbidden after the numbers rose too high. There are quite important for some regions and people got pretty upset about it. Even private meetings get limited for number of participants over Christmas. Then there are also travel restrictions though those are generally managable. Still made visiting families harder.

And of course anti-vaxxers are blamed. That it is still mostly unvaccinated people in the hospitals shows who gets it. After begging them half a year to get vaxxinated to avoid any further lockdown, they now are in the focus of the ire of the rest of the population.

Shaming them is not how you get them to get vaccinated, it only hurts the cause of vaccination. Government telling you how many people you can have at your place is overreaching its bounds.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Let me Google that for you.



Treating anti-vaxxers like rational adults didn't work either. Probably because they aren't. We've had the vaccine for months and yet we're facing another wave of the virus with the cold season approaching. You and people like you have prolonged this pandemic and probably made it worse. Give me one good reason why I shouldn't be pissed about that.

That's what STATES can do, NOT what the FEDERAL government can do. According to, you know, the constitution the federal government doesn't have much power and the states are basically their own countries in a sense. Again, if there was precedent for the federal government mandating vaccines, why didn't the Biden administration use that instead of back-dooring it through OSHA?

We haven't treated people like adults since the very start of the pandemic, that's the problem. In the very 1st weeks of the pandemic, friends on Facebook were literally posting in all caps "STAY THE FUCK HOME" acting like that was going to end the pandemic or that everyone or even most could even do that. Most can't work from home. Guess how all ya are getting your food and Amazon deliveries? Hint, it's not from other people working from home. Same thing happened with the mask debacle. Everyone was telling everyone else to wear masks and if you're not, you're killing grandma. There was no dialogue, no conversation, no discussion of nuance, no actual sincerity of answering the other sides concerns and points. Maybe your side is right about 6 or 7 of points but that means the other side is right about 3 or 4 points. If you don't acknowledge their points and just tell them what to do, it's not gonna end well. World's top doctors were removed off Youtube for just saying kids might not need masks, the WHO literally states that as well. When people work together and come up with a plan with everyone's input; 1) that plan is usually better overall and 2) everyone feels included and more likely to follow said plan. That's literally what progressives, which I am BTW, say is the reason diversity is good, but then you all kicked out any diverse opinions you don't like. So when the vaccine issue comes around later and you've been telling everyone to "DO THIS OR FUCK OFF" the whole time and you're like "well, now you gotta do this", they're gonna tell you to "FUCK OFF" as well. You didn't even give them a chance to get to a rational response as you've created a very emotional response instead. That's basic human psychology. You might say "they started it first" but aren't you supposed to be above that and take the high road? If you actually gave people a chance of making rational choice, they probably would've made it.

How have I prolonged the pandemic? I was for masking at the start because why not try it, not much to lose. But after a year, I'm gonna ask you to show your work and prove it. The most messed up part is ya'll didn't even do the fucking work (there's TWO randomized mask studies now going on close to 2 years), let alone prove it. And next time this happens, it'll all be the same exact bullshit as this time because no one even did the work and we still don't know. I never told anyone that didn't have covid to not get vaccinated. I said mandates aren't good because it doesn't make sense for every group to be mandated things and you'll just piss people off by doing it. Why would you force kids to get the vaccine when healthy kids have 0 deaths due to covid (per German data)? Is kicking thousands and thousands and thousands of kids out of school the better alternative? You don't do that for the flu and more kids die and spread that than covid. Then, the kids are at a learning disadvantage, at a nutritional disadvantage, and at a health disadvantage now as they'll be getting less vaccines for other diseases because they aren't in school (that did happen, normal kid vaccines were way down) and also later in life (cuz wealth is health in the US). Also, every measure you do now with a highly immune population is less effective obviously. So if something needs to be say 20% effective for the cost-benefits to work out in your favor and it was say 25% effective and now it's 5% effective, it's now no longer in your favor to do. There's tons of nuance in all these decisions.

 

[evilneko]

I donno, a pandemic seems like a valid workplace hazard to me.

Masking Works. Even for children. It may be an inconvenience, it may be uncomfortable, but it undeniably reduces transmission. Reducing transmission reduces infections which has all kinds of benefits for you and for society in general.

Now if only there weren't so many entitled Karens about.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

We haven't treated people like adults since the very start of the pandemic, that's the problem.

...

You didn't even give them a chance to get to a rational response as you've created a very emotional response instead. That's basic human psychology. You might say "they started it first" but aren't you supposed to be above that and take the high road? If you actually gave people a chance of making rational choice, they probably would've made it.

We *did* give people a chance of making a rational choice. They fled American Chinese restaurants, kept going to bars, bought all the toilet paper, and got mad at the people getting laid off instead of the people doing the laying off.

People aren't rational and pretending they are is massively naive. Fuck's sake, most of this argument is based on "how can you trust the scientists, they were wrong when they didn't know as much as they do now!"

 

[Buyetyen]

We haven't treated people like adults since the very start of the pandemic, that's the problem.

No, we did. And we got anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers for our trouble because the Orange Menace politicized both. We got people like you who decided to listen to YouTube instead of science.

The most messed up part is ya'll didn't even do the fucking work (there's TWO randomized mask studies now going on close to 2 years), let alone prove it.

You've been shown evidence. You just refuse to accept it.

 

[Silvanus]

If that's what the court said, how is it clickbait? A court stopping something that's highly illegal isn't "good news"?

Selective capitalisation, followed by partisan opinion as the very first statement, is classic clickbait.

It being "highly illegal" is your opinion, and the opinion of the notably-conservative Fifth Circuit.

The fact that having everyone get a specific medical procedure when there's groups where it wouldn't be beneficial does not have relevance to mandating everyone get something? That's news to me.

It has no relevance to a discussion about the presentation style of a news source, no.

 

[Agema]

We *did* give people a chance of making a rational choice. They fled American Chinese restaurants, kept going to bars, bought all the toilet paper, and got mad at the people getting laid off instead of the people doing the laying off.

People aren't rational

Indeed. Just look at the people trying to flog hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin and vitamin D off the back of effectively nothing.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

No, we did. And we got anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers for our trouble because the Orange Menace politicized both. We got people like you who decided to listen to YouTube instead of science.



You've been shown evidence. You just refuse to accept it.

You got anti-vaxxers because you pushed it on everyone regardless of need like people previously infected or kids. There is no evidence masks work. Do you not understand how something is proven in science? Literally the best randomized trial says cloth masks do nothing, and surgical masks don't help those younger than 50.

Selective capitalisation, followed by partisan opinion as the very first statement, is classic clickbait.

It being "highly illegal" is your opinion, and the opinion of the notably-conservative Fifth Circuit.



It has no relevance to a discussion about the presentation style of a news source, no.

There's literally nothing wrong with the story. The only thing you don't like about is that you want mandates and don't like that it's illegal. There's no question the mandates are illegal regardless of whether the court is conservative or liberal. The federal government doesn't have the power to do it plain and simple.

Indeed. Just look at the people trying to flog hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin and vitamin D off the back of effectively nothing.

Same with those trying to flog masks and remdesivir...

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I donno, a pandemic seems like a valid workplace hazard to me.

Masking Works. Even for children. It may be an inconvenience, it may be uncomfortable, but it undeniably reduces transmission. Reducing transmission reduces infections which has all kinds of benefits for you and for society in general.

Now if only there weren't so many entitled Karens about.

Pop in the workplace is a greater hazard. If you set precedent for covid being a workplace hazard, anything as bad or worse as covid then also becomes a workplace hazard.

There's a reason you have to do randomized studies, and there's only 2 such studies for masks. The RANDOMIZED Bangladesh study showed cloth masks did nothing and surgical masks only helped those above 50 (most likely because they participate in society much less vs masks doing much themselves). Comparing completely different schools in completely different areas give you tons of confounding data. I can pick place and time with no mandate and show you it did better against a mandated place picking when the mandated place experienced a surge while the non-mandated place had low covid. Right now, I'm sure New York has school mask mandates and I can show you with the CNN Covid Tracker that all those Florida unmasked counties are doing better now (because the North is experiencing their seasonal wave now and the South already has its during the summer).

All the those papers that show masks work conveniently only target a small time frame. When you look at much longer periods, you get results showing masks do basically nothing.

Mask mandate and use efficacy in state-level COVID-19 containment

Background Containment of the COVID-19 pandemic requires evidence-based strategies to reduce transmission. Because COVID-19 can spread via respired droplets, many states have mandated mask use in public settings. Randomized control trials have not clearly demonstrated mask efficacy against...

www.medrxiv.org

We *did* give people a chance of making a rational choice. They fled American Chinese restaurants, kept going to bars, bought all the toilet paper, and got mad at the people getting laid off instead of the people doing the laying off.

People aren't rational and pretending they are is massively naive. Fuck's sake, most of this argument is based on "how can you trust the scientists, they were wrong when they didn't know as much as they do now!"

Cuz since the start of this neither side treated the other side as people. Everyone just did the opposite of what the other side wanted.

Why'd the left close schools? Cuz Trump wanted them open. Why do people want masks on planes even though the science says spread doesn't happen on planes? Why does the left impose the greatest restrictions on those at extremely low risk? Funny how everyone got mad when Trump called certain countries shitholes but the current administration actually treats them like shithole countries with pointless travel bans. Both sides of the same coin.

 

[Buyetyen]

Do you not understand how something is proven in science?

Better than you.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Just saying, there's an ignore function for a reason.

 

[Agema]

Same with those trying to flog masks and remdesivir...

The evidence that masks help prevent spread of covid is very strong: at least to anyone with reasonable scientific knowledge and a good grasp of the literature.

However, you have neither adequate scientific knowledge nor a good grasp of the literature, nor even a responsible and neutral attitude. Having made this rod for your own back, you have nothing to give anyone here but petty obstinacy.

 

[Agema]

US court reinstates Covid vaccine mandate for large US businesses

The national mandate, blocked last month, will cover more than two-thirds of the country's workers.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'm assuming (because I haven't looked that hard) that this "scathing" court opinion has just got at least partially overturned by a higher court.