Our Covid Response

Trunkage

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The consensus isn't for boosters, why do you think the top FDA officials Marion Gruber and Philip Krause resigned over covid boosters? Because the White House was politically pushing for them when the data wasn't there and still isn't there to this day. Don't you find it funny the CDC won't release booster data for those under 50? Just maybe, it's because the data shows it does nothing because if it showed benefit, they'd be screaming it from the rooftops.
This is info that wasnt in the previous discussion that you decided to miss out. Edit: I dont think this proves Offit's assumption about boosters at all but it what you are stating proves Offit's point. So this is an overstatement on my part

I'll ask you a question. Is there any possible reason, other than what you've stated, for the 'CDC not releasing the data on boosters'?
 

Drathnoxis

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Because I miss out on more life if I try avoid getting colds/flus/covid than the life I miss out on from being sick.
How does putting on a mask cause you to miss out on life?
 

Silvanus

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The departments that care for covid patients could have been overwhelmed at times in certain places but saying the entire hospital was overwhelmed with a 40% drop in admissions... how? Many medical personnel were not working and sitting on their butts.
The severity of the pandemic rose and fell over the last two years. A "40% drop in admissions" represents an ebb. At the worst points, hospitals were unable to see thousands of people who needed medical care; hospitals were over capacity; medical staff were utterly burned out; and procedures for non-Covid severe conditions were postponed or cancelled.

An early prediction is Paul Offit being wrong on actual SCIENCE?
Epidemiology is science, yes.

I don't really give a shit about this parade of reasons to discount the example. You asked for a single instance and I gave one that he himself acknowledges. Such it up.

I'm not saying he didn't say those things (you have no source saying he did though)
He's on record. Google it. Maybe if you didn't exclusively get your talking points from podcasts and YouTube vids, you'd already have known.

I very much doubt you'll find anything within the past year of Offit recommending masks or social distancing.

Here he is in February 2022 recommending we continue to wear masks.
 

Phoenixmgs

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This is info that wasnt in the previous discussion that you decided to miss out. Edit: I dont think this proves Offit's assumption about boosters at all but it what you are stating proves Offit's point. So this is an overstatement on my part

I'll ask you a question. Is there any possible reason, other than what you've stated, for the 'CDC not releasing the data on boosters'?
The CDC released data for boosters for the 50+ part of the population. I don't believe there's any other data in the world saying boosters do anything (as far as improving clinical outcomes) for most people.


How does putting on a mask cause you to miss out on life?
I know masks (unless something like an N95) don't do anything to prevent colds/flus/covid. Doing the things that actually prevent getting those things greatly cause you to miss out on life.


I don't know why you're worried about this. Phoenixings doesn't think washing hands helps you avoid Covid
Link to any actual science that says so. Covid's main route of transmission is airborne and very very very very rarely is transmitted via surfaces so what are you getting out of washing your hands more? Also, the extreme use of hand sanitizer literally caused more sickness than it stopped.

Funny how people are so concerned with basically safety theater things and are shocked when someone doesn't do them but totally ignore the big picture things that actually make a difference. For example, I don't wash my hands unless they feel or are visibly dirty or before eating anything whereas I gave up pop 20 years ago because I knew that is basically poison. Yet I get scolded for being against washing hands to prevent covid from someone drinking a case a pop a day, people have no concept of risk whatsoever.

The severity of the pandemic rose and fell over the last two years. A "40% drop in admissions" represents an ebb. At the worst points, hospitals were unable to see thousands of people who needed medical care; hospitals were over capacity; medical staff were utterly burned out; and procedures for non-Covid severe conditions were postponed or cancelled.



Epidemiology is science, yes.

I don't really give a shit about this parade of reasons to discount the example. You asked for a single instance and I gave one that he himself acknowledges. Such it up.



He's on record. Google it. Maybe if you didn't exclusively get your talking points from podcasts and YouTube vids, you'd already have known.




Here he is in February 2022 recommending we continue to wear masks.
Even in the worst period of covid (fall 2020), your paper said admissions were down 20% IIRC vs the same period before covid. Hospitals just choose to not do non-immediate procedures. My cousin that graduated in Spring 2020 as a nurse for oncology had to wait months to start working because the cancer department was basically closed for covid precautions. It wasn't closed because the other cancer doctors and nurses got reallocated to covid patients, they just weren't working. You're acting like hospital admissions were down because of too many covid patients, that's not what happened. Both the hospitals and patients themselves were putting off care because of covid, not because there wasn't doctors to see them or whatever. And now you're seeing what happens with excess deaths up all over the world when you put off non-immediate care, and it was all done for pretty much no reason.

That was the scientific consensus at the time. Science evolves and the fact that the initial predictions were most likely based off the poor assumption that covid wasn't airborne.

He also said there to mask for a little longer, it's been a little longer, why still mask? Also, I don't just blindly go by what some says regardless of qualifications, I need data to backup your stance. Literally every mask study with the highest quality methodology has showed masks at most do very little if anything. What are you so afraid of with regards to covid at this point? Paul Offit, that's 71 years old isn't worried about getting covid and he's perfectly fine with getting reinfected with it and extremely confident he'll have at most a mild infection. I already know myself that covid lasts shorter than a head cold or flu for me so why should I be doing any added things to prevent it when I didn't do any of those things for colds or flus beforehand?
 

Drathnoxis

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I know masks (unless something like an N95) don't do anything to prevent colds/flus/covid. Doing the things that actually prevent getting those things greatly cause you to miss out on life.
And yet I haven't been sick since covid started, when I used to be once or twice a year. And other than wearing a mask my life has not changed at all since covid started.
 

Generals

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And why do you want to get the flu? I haven't been sick at all since Covid started and I don't miss it in the slightest.
You know very well that's a baity question which in no way reflects my position.
I could get right back at you with the following question: Why do you like wasting money, polluting the planet and handicapping your breathing?
Obviously you don't like that, just like I don't like potentially catching a virus. However we have both weighed the advantages and disadvantages differently.
 

Silvanus

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Even in the worst period of covid (fall 2020), your paper said admissions were down 20% IIRC vs the same period before covid. Hospitals just choose to not do non-immediate procedures. My cousin that graduated in Spring 2020 as a nurse for oncology had to wait months to start working because the cancer department was basically closed for covid precautions. It wasn't closed because the other cancer doctors and nurses got reallocated to covid patients, they just weren't working. You're acting like hospital admissions were down because of too many covid patients, that's not what happened. Both the hospitals and patients themselves were putting off care because of covid, not because there wasn't doctors to see them or whatever. And now you're seeing what happens with excess deaths up all over the world when you put off non-immediate care, and it was all done for pretty much no reason.
You can deny the healthcare system was overwhelmed all you like. Its pretty much universally acknowledged at this point. So if you're still unaware, you're not going to be convinced. Urgent procedures were postponed and cancelled; doctors and nurses were burned out; wards were over capacity (and no, being under capacity during ebbs does not counter that); and excess deaths rose.

He also said there to mask for a little longer, it's been a little longer, why still mask?
Jesus Christ, dude. You specifically said that I wouldn't find something from 2022 with Paul Offit saying to keep masking. Very specific requirements. I found exactly that. And yet again, what do you do? Dance around it, shift the goalpost, "that doesn't count because wafflewafflewaffle". The same tiresome blah.

What's the point in answering your questions if even when the exact requirements of the question are met, you still refuse to acknowledge it?
 

Drathnoxis

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You know very well that's a baity question which in no way reflects my position.
I could get right back at you with the following question: Why do you like wasting money, polluting the planet and handicapping your breathing?
Obviously you don't like that, just like I don't like potentially catching a virus. However we have both weighed the advantages and disadvantages differently.
I have a couple washable reusable masks and do none of those things.
 

Phoenixmgs

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And yet I haven't been sick since covid started, when I used to be once or twice a year. And other than wearing a mask my life has not changed at all since covid started.
And outside of masks, you've literally lived your life the exact same way over the last 2+ years as you did before covid?

I have a couple washable reusable masks and do none of those things.
Yeah, those definitely don't do anything, the 300,000+ person RCT of masks showed that cloth masks do nothing.


You can deny the healthcare system was overwhelmed all you like. Its pretty much universally acknowledged at this point. So if you're still unaware, you're not going to be convinced. Urgent procedures were postponed and cancelled; doctors and nurses were burned out; wards were over capacity (and no, being under capacity during ebbs does not counter that); and excess deaths rose.



Jesus Christ, dude. You specifically said that I wouldn't find something from 2022 with Paul Offit saying to keep masking. Very specific requirements. I found exactly that. And yet again, what do you do? Dance around it, shift the goalpost, "that doesn't count because wafflewafflewaffle". The same tiresome blah.

What's the point in answering your questions if even when the exact requirements of the question are met, you still refuse to acknowledge it?
OMG, I have to literally spell things out... DEPARTMENTS THAT TOOK CARE OF COVID PATIENTS WERE OVERWHELMED AT TIMES. That doesn't mean the hospital was overwhelmed. We had tons of medical personnel barely working or not working at all. Funny how you don't even acknowledge how currently excess deaths are way up with only a small percentage of them being from covid now. Care to answer why that is?

And he said for a little while longer. When is that "a little while longer" period over? Also, why would you wear a mask now when covid's IFR is now below the flu? You didn't wear a mask for the flu, did you?

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It does though. I definitely breath differently with a mask on, not that it's some big deal. We were making kids wear masks outside when playing sports in like the dumbest decision ever. Also, you don't care about being able to express yourself or see other express themselves with their facial expressions, which are extremely informative to communication?
 

Silvanus

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OMG, I have to literally spell things out... DEPARTMENTS THAT TOOK CARE OF COVID PATIENTS WERE OVERWHELMED AT TIMES. That doesn't mean the hospital was overwhelmed. We had tons of medical personnel barely working or not working at all. Funny how you don't even acknowledge how currently excess deaths are way up with only a small percentage of them being from covid now. Care to answer why that is?
You can "spell out" whatever you want: it doesn't make it credible or persuasive. Doctors, nurses, practitioners and healthcare professionals were repeatedly warning that burnout, underfunding, and an overwhelmed system were putting patient safety at risk.

And he said for a little while longer. When is that "a little while longer" period over?
I don't give a shit, because that's not relevant to the point here.

You said he didn't encourage mask-wearing in 2022. I found a quote encouraging mask-wearing in 2022. Don't give a toss if you want to move the goalposts afterwards.
 

Drathnoxis

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And outside of masks, you've literally lived your life the exact same way over the last 2+ years as you did before covid?
Pretty much. Although, I use more hand sanitizer now. Staying home and playing video games wasn't affected by covid.
 

Phoenixmgs

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You can "spell out" whatever you want: it doesn't make it credible or persuasive. Doctors, nurses, practitioners and healthcare professionals were repeatedly warning that burnout, underfunding, and an overwhelmed system were putting patient safety at risk.



I don't give a shit, because that's not relevant to the point here.

You said he didn't encourage mask-wearing in 2022. I found a quote encouraging mask-wearing in 2022. Don't give a toss if you want to move the goalposts afterwards.
Again, of covid departments. Overall hospital admissions were way down per your own source. And, you have no proof of your claim that people were actually more at risk going to the hospital. Those very same people would say the same of the system before covid. Hospitals just like any other business are run to be as profitable as possible meaning they stretch people like nurses as much as possible. I wonder why travel nurses were a thing before the pandemic...

What about these very elevated excess deaths we are seeing that I said was gonna happen? You just conveniently keep not commenting on that and sweeping those under the rug.

He said a little while longer so why are you saying masks should be worn now? He also changed his stance once he actually got covid this year.

Pretty much. Although, I use more hand sanitizer now. Staying home and playing video games wasn't affected by covid.
Staying home and playing video games doesn't have you getting sick regardless of covid. Where are you even wearing a mask if you ain't going out? Hand sanitizer was only linked to getting people more sick from the stomach bug because hand sanitizer doesn't kill that bug. I went from March 2020 to Oct/Nov 2021 without getting sick and went out to all my normal hangouts (bar on Fridays, board gaming in person, DnD in person, pool parties, holiday family dinners even Easter 2020, etc.). And all that with no mask and no hand sanitizer (because it doesn't stop you from getting something that spreads via the air anyway).
 

Silvanus

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Again, of covid departments. Overall hospital admissions were way down per your own source. And, you have no proof of your claim that people were actually more at risk going to the hospital. Those very same people would say the same of the system before covid.
My "claim"? Did I claim that? I claimed that patient care suffered, which is universally agreed by healthcare practitioners.

Hospitals just like any other business are run to be as profitable as possible
LOL, maybe in the corporate dystopia you live in. Hospitals in the UK are not run for profit.

What about these very elevated excess deaths we are seeing that I said was gonna happen? You just conveniently keep not commenting on that and sweeping those under the rug.
Because that... doesn't counter what I'm saying anyway.

He said a little while longer so why are you saying masks should be worn now?
How does this change the fact that you said he didn't encourage mask-wearing in 2022, but he did?

Are you physically incapable of admitting error?
 

Drathnoxis

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Staying home and playing video games doesn't have you getting sick regardless of covid. Where are you even wearing a mask if you ain't going out?
Work, grocery store, stuff like that. There aren't many people in a position to be a total recluse. Covid didn't change any of that.
 

Phoenixmgs

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My "claim"? Did I claim that? I claimed that patient care suffered, which is universally agreed by healthcare practitioners.



LOL, maybe in the corporate dystopia you live in. Hospitals in the UK are not run for profit.



Because that... doesn't counter what I'm saying anyway.



How does this change the fact that you said he didn't encourage mask-wearing in 2022, but he did?

Are you physically incapable of admitting error?
Not by any actual data. So anecdotes are now proof of something in your opinion? There's lots of doctors and nurses that say things that are wrong and in California, it looks like they'll get in trouble for that (because California is stupid).

I'm talking about the US as I have no knowledge of the UK situation so I don't talk about it (unless I specifically read up on it). There's problems specific to running hospitals for profit and not running them for profit as well.

It doesn't counter anything you're saying except for the the fact It counters the overarching "you must save everyone from covid" mantra you've been on for the last 2+ years (while ignoring the costs of doing that and still ignoring said costs).

Sure, he obviously said that but he doesn't care about masking now. I don't get why you care so much about masking when literally all of the highest quality studies (best methods) we have on masking say it doesn't do anything or very little. You're gonna catch covid, get over it already. I've been saying since the whole thing started that everyone was gonna get covid as it was extremely obvious (once vaccines were readily available, there was no point in doing anything to slow infections), it took people way too fucking long to accept that and some still don't. That's basically what Paul Offit has said, you can't stop mild infections so why try, and he doesn't even see the point of boosters even for himself and he's 70-something years old. The new bivalent booster is a total joke as far as the actual science goes as 1) it shouldn't be bivalent and 2) the dose is laughably small to help against the new strain anyway.


Work, grocery store, stuff like that. There aren't many people in a position to be a total recluse. Covid didn't change any of that.
It's pointless in a grocery store because did you ever catch a cold going to a grocery store before in your life? Sure maybe in a packed line you can catch something. And work, it usually pointless as well as your job either has you working with people constantly (sharing the same air) so a mask won't work there or you work mainly alone (like your own office) where you aren't sharing air. It's not like you get sick randomly walking by someone, every time I get sick is because I've been around sick friends or co-workers for hours at a time (masks don't work for hours, maybe minutes tops unless it's an N95).
 

Silvanus

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Dude, please split the posts you're quoting and address it section by section.

Not by any actual data. So anecdotes are now proof of something in your opinion? There's lots of doctors and nurses that say things that are wrong and in California, it looks like they'll get in trouble for that (because California is stupid).
If you won't accept testimony, what datapoints would you accept as a corrolary for burnout? Higher patient mortality, referrals for stress among professionals, resignations? All rose precipitously.

I'm talking about the US as I have no knowledge of the UK situation so I don't talk about it (unless I specifically read up on it). There's problems specific to running hospitals for profit and not running them for profit as well.
The most obvious problem being that in for-profit healthcare, the administration has a motive they consider above the patient's wellbeing.

Anyway. Don't assume that everyone else's healthcare systems are as ghoulish as yours. That's my point. It's not a necessity for them to act in the Scrooge-like, callous way they do in the US-- it's a choice.

It doesn't counter anything you're saying except for the the fact It counters the overarching "you must save everyone from covid" mantra you've been on for the last 2+ years (while ignoring the costs of doing that and still ignoring said costs).
I've never said it's possible to prevent every infection. But reasonable people only accept excess deaths that cannot be avoided. I refuse to place monetary costs (or the costs of relatively brief inconvenience, like vaccinating, masking and distancing) above human life, because that's grotesque.

Sure, he obviously said that but [...]
And the rest is all blah.

Is it really that hard to just admit an error? I don't really give a toss about all your excuses for why you think it doesn't matter. All I was doing was directly addressing an error but I had to fight for umpteen more posts to get it acknowledged, and it's exhausting.
 

Buyetyen

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It does though. I definitely breath differently with a mask on, not that it's some big deal. We were making kids wear masks outside when playing sports in like the dumbest decision ever. Also, you don't care about being able to express yourself or see other express themselves with their facial expressions, which are extremely informative to communication?
Yes, yes, evidence-free concern trolling, we know.