Our Covid Response

Phoenixmgs

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Dude, please split the posts you're quoting and address it section by section.
I split them up by paragraphs, just easier.

If you won't accept testimony, what datapoints would you accept as a corrolary for burnout? Higher patient mortality, referrals for stress among professionals, resignations? All rose precipitously.
Testimony can be wrong and bias. There's testimony of doctors saying X works in their limited experience and then when a study is done we find out X doesn't work. Not saying you just ignore what people are saying but you use it as a starting point in the science, not an end point. The study you linked literally said they couldn't adjust for the main fucking limitation that has a high probability as the reason of the increased mortality rate.

The most obvious problem being that in for-profit healthcare, the administration has a motive they consider above the patient's wellbeing.

Anyway. Don't assume that everyone else's healthcare systems are as ghoulish as yours. That's my point. It's not a necessity for them to act in the Scrooge-like, callous way they do in the US-- it's a choice.
I know how bad our healthcare system is. I also think every country with public healthcare has had their systems become worse over time as the government is not very good at effectively and efficiently running things. I'm fully in the camp that anything that is a necessity shouldn't be run for-profit but I can also recognize there are cons to doing that as well. I definitely feel the pros outweigh those cons, but you can't sweep the cons under the rug like they don't exist.

I've never said it's possible to prevent every infection. But reasonable people only accept excess deaths that cannot be avoided. I refuse to place monetary costs (or the costs of relatively brief inconvenience, like vaccinating, masking and distancing) above human life, because that's grotesque.
There's no good data that masking does anything. There's also no data that says masking hurts because it's kinda hard to put numbers on how well/poor masking kids affects their development. Vaccination has be shown not to prevent spread so it's then completely a personal choice, any vaccine mandate is not helping community safety at all and just kicking people out of society (and most of those you're pushing out are minorities). And, of course, if you had covid, then you don't need the vaccine (like measles and that's how measles was handled). Also, this strong push for covid vaccination has cost a lost in actual important vaccinations for kids that are quite down. In the end, will pushing the covid vaccine save more life? Distancing actually works obviously. However, is the cost of distancing worse than the benefits? People's mental health is worse than ever because people need to be with people to be healthy as well. You can't just be like stay away from people and stop socializing as if there's no cost to doing that. There's a reason why excess deaths are way up now and it's not due to covid anymore.

I think Errant Signals Quarantine video is about the perfect example of how quarantining for such long periods is not healthy at all.

And the rest is all blah.

Is it really that hard to just admit an error? I don't really give a toss about all your excuses for why you think it doesn't matter. All I was doing was directly addressing an error but I had to fight for umpteen more posts to get it acknowledged, and it's exhausting.
I did admit it, why can't you admit there's no data showing masks help much at all?


Yes, yes, evidence-free concern trolling, we know.
Uhh... the WHO does not recommend wearing masks during exercise. We know people with certain conditions are definitely not supposed to wear a mask during exercise so if masks don't affect your air intake at all, then how could it affect anyone?
 

Buyetyen

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Uhh... the WHO does not recommend wearing masks during exercise. We know people with certain conditions are definitely not supposed to wear a mask during exercise so if masks don't affect your air intake at all, then how could it affect anyone?
I'm pretty sure I already made clear that I'm not interested in your concern-trolling bullshit when it really just comes down to you not wanting to admit that doctors are smarter than you.
 
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SilentPony

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Uhh... the WHO does not recommend wearing masks during exercise. We know people with certain conditions are definitely not supposed to wear a mask during exercise so if masks don't affect your air intake at all, then how could it affect anyone?
.
 
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Silvanus

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I split them up by paragraphs, just easier.
But you don't split up the post you're quoting at all.

Testimony can be wrong and bias. There's testimony of doctors saying X works in their limited experience and then when a study is done we find out X doesn't work. Not saying you just ignore what people are saying but you use it as a starting point in the science, not an end point. The study you linked literally said they couldn't adjust for the main fucking limitation that has a high probability as the reason of the increased mortality rate.
So, you've given your reasons for dismissing any corollaries or datapoints I've mentioned. So what would you actually consider valid evidence of burnout?

I know how bad our healthcare system is. I also think every country with public healthcare has had their systems become worse over time as the government is not very good at effectively and efficiently running things. I'm fully in the camp that anything that is a necessity shouldn't be run for-profit but I can also recognize there are cons to doing that as well. I definitely feel the pros outweigh those cons, but you can't sweep the cons under the rug like they don't exist.
Generally, they become "worse" if they're chronically underfunded. Which isn't so much a fault of the system so much as it's an undermining act by conservative governments.

There's no good data that masking does anything. There's also no data that says masking hurts because it's kinda hard to put numbers on how well/poor masking kids affects their development. Vaccination has be shown not to prevent spread so it's then completely a personal choice, any vaccine mandate is not helping community safety at all and just kicking people out of society (and most of those you're pushing out are minorities). And, of course, if you had covid, then you don't need the vaccine (like measles and that's how measles was handled).
Pray tell, why do you constantly lionise Paul Offit while simultaneously standing diametrically opposed to his positions on masking and vaccination?

I did admit it, why can't you admit there's no data showing masks help much at all?
You "admitted" it after six or seven posts of deflection, but yes, you did. Well done you.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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I'm pretty sure I already made clear that I'm not interested in your concern-trolling bullshit when it really just comes down to you not wanting to admit that doctors are smarter than you.
Why do you even try to have a conversation when you're not willing to change your mind on anything?

.
Obviously a mask does something to your breathing/air intake, that''s all I claimed. And why is anyone wearing masks when exercising now? Have you not been around normal people in the last year or so? It's pretty funny that the pic they used was people masking outside, which was always pointless even if you think masks work.

Who should not use a mask while exercising?

It is safe to wear a mask while exercising for most people. However, if you have a chronic lung disease, such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, mesothelioma or pulmonary hypertension, talk with your health care provider before attempting any physical activity while wearing a mask.



So, you've given your reasons for dismissing any corollaries or datapoints I've mentioned. So what would you actually consider valid evidence of burnout?
Firstly, your claim is that you had a higher chance of dying if you went to the hospital during the pandemic, which you haven't proven. Secondly, burnout was happening before covid. I'd be guessing it increased in covid departments but probably dropped in non-covid departments during the pandemic. Overall, I wouldn't be surprised if burnout dropped overall since there are probably more medical workers not in covid departments.

Generally, they become "worse" if they're chronically underfunded. Which isn't so much a fault of the system so much as it's an undermining act by conservative governments.
I haven't super looked into it and, like I said, I'm for a public healthcare system as healthcare is a necessity and shouldn't be run for profit.

Pray tell, why do you constantly lionise Paul Offit while simultaneously standing diametrically opposed to his positions on masking and vaccination?
I'm not at all "diametrically" opposed to his positions on masking and vaccination. He said you don't need the vaccine if you had a covid infection and he hardly even masks.

Here you go at ~30:30 (he hardly even masks and he's over 70)

You "admitted" it after six or seven posts of deflection, but yes, you did. Well done you.
So when are you gonna admit that data for masking isn't there (unless you're doing a N95 type mask)?

Also, the story just came out that Pfizer never tested for viral transmission in their studies . Are you gonna admit that there was never any data saying vaccines reduce transmission? It was never even tested for and we already knew from Israel (because they vaccinated before us) that the vaccines didn't stop infections.
 

Silvanus

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Firstly, your claim is that you had a higher chance of dying if you went to the hospital during the pandemic, which you haven't proven.
The claim we're currently discussing is that healthcare systems were pushed towards breaking point during the Covid pandemic. And that rescinding restrictions increased that.

I mentioned higher patient mortality as a possible corollary, among several others, because you wholly dismissed professional testimony altogether and I wanted to know which datapoints you would accept as corollaries for burnout.

Secondly, burnout was happening before covid. I'd be guessing it increased in covid departments but probably dropped in non-covid departments during the pandemic. Overall, I wouldn't be surprised if burnout dropped overall since there are probably more medical workers not in covid departments.
"Probably dropped". Based on what? Where's the data? This is just blue-sky thinking.

I'm not at all "diametrically" opposed to his positions on masking and vaccination. He said you don't need the vaccine if you had a covid infection and he hardly even masks.

Here you go at ~30:30 (he hardly even masks and he's over 70)
He's said kids should be vaccinated. He said we should continue to mask into 2022. You've been strenuously arguing against these positions, saying masks do nothing and that vaccinating kids is pointless, and that you only even bothered to get the vaccine because you had to.
 

Generals

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I have a couple washable reusable masks and do none of those things.
So you are using the quasi useless kind of masks... See you yourself made a compromise. If you'd truly dislike getting sick you'd use FFP2 or 3 masks. And in my experience reusable masks are even worse for breathing comfort than surgical masks.

Unless you make holes at the level of your nose and/or mouth your reaction makes no sense.
Anyone who has worn useful masks knows it causes breathing discomfort.
 
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Buyetyen

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Unless you make holes at the level of your nose and/or mouth your reaction makes no sense.
Anyone who has worn useful masks knows it causes breathing discomfort.
Not that I've noticed. Maybe I'm just better at breathing?
 

Generals

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Not that I've noticed. Maybe I'm just better at breathing?
No you just wear masks that don't filter anything.
Claiming masks do not hamper people's ability to breathe as easily as without one is so far out there I am wondering why you'd even try to make that argument?
Any person can disprove that claim by putting a mask on.
 

Drathnoxis

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So you are using the quasi useless kind of masks... See you yourself made a compromise. If you'd truly dislike getting sick you'd use FFP2 or 3 masks. And in my experience reusable masks are even worse for breathing comfort than surgical masks.
Well, at work I wear N95 because they provide them and I don't really want to breath in glass fibres either. So that's like 95% of my mask usage time.
 

Phoenixmgs

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The claim we're currently discussing is that healthcare systems were pushed towards breaking point during the Covid pandemic. And that rescinding restrictions increased that.

I mentioned higher patient mortality as a possible corollary, among several others, because you wholly dismissed professional testimony altogether and I wanted to know which datapoints you would accept as corollaries for burnout.



"Probably dropped". Based on what? Where's the data? This is just blue-sky thinking.



He's said kids should be vaccinated. He said we should continue to mask into 2022. You've been strenuously arguing against these positions, saying masks do nothing and that vaccinating kids is pointless, and that you only even bothered to get the vaccine because you had to.
I've only been discussing your claim about mortality increase. How is a hospital system being pushed to breaking points when admissions WENT DOWN rather drastically (per your paper)? And even if they were pushed towards their breaking points, they've have to get pushed past their breaking points for patient care/mortality to drop.

That's just my initial train of thought on the issue without looking at any data. That's what I would presume to have happened based on common sense. I'm not the one trying to prove either way, I'm just countering your claim that patient mortality increased OVER POOR CARE, which you have provided no proof of.

Where did he say kids who had covid should be vaccinated? Where did he say the general public should be masking? He doesn't even mask himself. He barely even talks about masking in general because there's far more important things to talk about. Also, remember when people were saying we still can't give up covid restrictions until kids (under 5) can get vaccinated because they haven't had the chance yet? And now only 6% of kids under 5 have gotten a single dose because nobody actually gives a shit about vaccinating kids that have like 0 covid risk and have probably already been exposed anyway. The mainstream media message is vastly different from actual public opinion.


That question would be better asked while looking in a mirror, bro.
I've changed my mind on numerous things throughout the pandemic when the data changed. I was pro-masking here when most were against it in the very early days.


Unless you make holes at the level of your nose and/or mouth your reaction makes no sense.
Anyone who has worn useful masks knows it causes breathing discomfort.
I've only worn the cloth masks. I searched most comfortable mask when getting back to work in 2020 because I didn't give 2 shits about masks for protection (already had covid early March 2020). When I'm doing decently physical work or just worked up (from working fast), I notice that I'll breathe through my mouth quite a bit more than usual with even just a loose cloth mask on. Now, I never wear the mask over my nose or wear the "required" surgical mask at the hospitals and no one gives a shit. To say masking doesn't affect breathing is basically bullshit. Is it a legit reason to not mask? No. It's now like those that point about adverse effects with the vaccine (legit ones, not the conspiracy ones) get accused of being anti-vaxxers because they said a very minor bad thing about the vaccines.


Well, at work I wear N95 because they provide them and I don't really want to breath in glass fibres either. So that's like 95% of my mask usage time.
So saying that masks work based on the fact that you haven't gotten sick is a pretty loaded claim because you're using N95s, which no one has said doesn't actually work. The thing with N95s is that there's no way you're gonna get the entire population or even a majority wearing that type of mask (for a disease like covid that is less severe than the flu for most of the population even when it was novel let alone now). So saying masking works (when wearing N95s) is a very different claim than saying masking works (with cloth or surgical masks). The latter claim is where there's no evidence of that working in any significant manner.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Now tell me why I'm supposed to believe you.

The 1st post of that thread is a user (that was very pro safety everthing that doesn't post here anymore) saying masks don't do much...

But I'm the liar...
 

Buyetyen

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The 1st post of that thread is a user (that was very pro safety everthing that doesn't post here anymore) saying masks don't do much...

But I'm the liar...
This isn't a reason for me to believe anything that comes out of your mouth. Rather than attacking others, defend yourself.
 

Phoenixmgs

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This isn't a reason for me to believe anything that comes out of your mouth. Rather than attacking others, defend yourself.
I did... I linked to (I think) my first post on covid, I was pro-mask. What did I lie about? And I said others were against masks early on because, you know, the studies we have for masks (pre-2020) said they didn't do much of anything either.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Long covid seems like a bunch of bullshit, not a single study has found anything of importance with regards to long covid.

The survey also asked participants about more than 20 symptoms associated with long COVID, including soreness, fatigue, poor concentration, trouble breathing, and chest pain. For most of the categories, a belief in having had COVID-19 was associated with currently having a symptom that had lasted for more than 8 weeks, after adjusting for age, sex, income, educational level, self-rated health, and depressive symptoms. However, loss of smell was the only long-term symptom associated with a positive serology test after adjustments.

The results “suggest that physical symptoms persisting 10 to 12 months after the COVID-19 pandemic first wave may be associated more with the belief in having experienced COVID-19 infection than with actually being infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus
,” the authors wrote in JAMA Internal Medicine.




---


(@1:16:15)

Funny how so many experts and scientists are saying "well, now we know better". No, we knew most of the shit all the back in 2020. We knew the virus didn't transmit outside (yet beaches, parks, etc. stayed closed), there's still not a single confirmed transmission outside in the entire world yet people wear masks hiking or riding bikes, we made kids mask outside playing sports (just beyond fucking stupid). We knew schools should be open because Sweden did the science (Europe followed, the US didn't). We knew cloth masks didn't work, there was no data before, there's no data now. Vaccine mandates were always bullshit, ostracizing people from society is BAD, and there was literally no science ever saying mandates were good.
 

Kwak

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Long covid seems like a bunch of bullshit, not a single study has found anything of importance with regards to long covid.
Patients with LC had highly activated innate immune cells, lacked naive T and B cells and showed elevated expression of type I IFN (IFN-β) and type III IFN (IFN-λ1) that remained persistently high at 8 months after infection.