Pachter: Publishers Jumping Ship Is Hurting the Wii

Treblaine

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SL33TBL1ND said:
Treblaine said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
It's funny because they said "first-rate lineup of games" and the big thing people don't like about the Wii is the games. Ah well, keep dreaming Nintendo.
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Super Mario Galaxy
Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles
Mario Kart Wii
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Wario: The Shake Dimension (against expectations: quite good)
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
Muramasa: The Demon Blade
House of the Dead: Overkill
Dead Space: Extraction
Super Mario Galaxy 2
Metroid: Other M
Epic Mickey
Donkey Kong Country Returns
Zelda: Skyward Sword
Kirby's Epic yarn

We talking about the same Wii here? Because that is a SOLID line-up

In my book that beats Xbox 360's Exclusive line-up (though I'm only interested in; Halo 3/ODST/Reach, Crackdown 1+2, Fable 2, Gears 2+3, Bayonetta = 9 games, discounting PC releases)

It's clearly not the NUMBER of Wii games, it's the visual quality. None are in HD, most barely have better graphics than Gamecube. That I imagine can be hard for some but it makes little difference to me. Xbox 360 and PS3 graphics are so poor compared to PC gaming so all console gaming for me is not about "eye candy" at all, just needs good enough graphics to do the job... to enjoy the gameplay and artistic depiction.
Either reboots or rail shooters, I'll stick with my PC thanks.
OH DON'T GET ME WRONG!

I LOOOEEEVVV gaming on my PC that I built myself, I now have to buy a 2nd 500GB hard drive for all my game installs.

But the thing is PC may be ultimate in gaming but it is not quite comprehensive, so many games and experiences you can't (reasonably or legally) get on PC.

You may sniff at rail shooters (admittedly, I'd prefer to play them on PC with a mouse) but on Wii they are GREAT for co-op with my friends and family, in the same room, side by side with intuitive controls. The Wii-mote is so good for the job, look up on the way it senses pointing with the Sensor Bar; not by fudge-y accelerometers, but by precise IR tracking in an ingeniously simple setup. Fast, precise and simple.

I really fail to see the point in PS3 and Xbox 360 sometimes, they just seem to be doing what PC is best at, has always been best at and I only play on consoles at all due to bullshit exclusivity.

I say to all PC gamers, if you are interested in ANY other platform, Xbox 360 and PS3 have little additive value, they are mostly trying (and failing) to do the same thing as PC in terms of shooters, RPGs and so on. Wii is DIFFERENT from PC, it EXCELS in doing the things that distinguish Consoles from PC, being good simple fun that is accessible for friends that are hanging out.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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Treblaine said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
Treblaine said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
It's funny because they said "first-rate lineup of games" and the big thing people don't like about the Wii is the games. Ah well, keep dreaming Nintendo.
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Super Mario Galaxy
Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles
Mario Kart Wii
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Wario: The Shake Dimension (against expectations: quite good)
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
Muramasa: The Demon Blade
House of the Dead: Overkill
Dead Space: Extraction
Super Mario Galaxy 2
Metroid: Other M
Epic Mickey
Donkey Kong Country Returns
Zelda: Skyward Sword
Kirby's Epic yarn

We talking about the same Wii here? Because that is a SOLID line-up

In my book that beats Xbox 360's Exclusive line-up (though I'm only interested in; Halo 3/ODST/Reach, Crackdown 1+2, Fable 2, Gears 2+3, Bayonetta = 9 games, discounting PC releases)

It's clearly not the NUMBER of Wii games, it's the visual quality. None are in HD, most barely have better graphics than Gamecube. That I imagine can be hard for some but it makes little difference to me. Xbox 360 and PS3 graphics are so poor compared to PC gaming so all console gaming for me is not about "eye candy" at all, just needs good enough graphics to do the job... to enjoy the gameplay and artistic depiction.
Either reboots or rail shooters, I'll stick with my PC thanks.
OH DON'T GET ME WRONG!

I LOOOEEEVVV gaming on my PC that I built myself, I now have to buy a 2nd 500GB hard drive for all my game installs.

But the thing is PC may be ultimate in gaming but it is not quite comprehensive, so many games and experiences you can't (reasonably or legally) get on PC.

You may sniff at rail shooters (admittedly, I'd prefer to play them on PC with a mouse) but on Wii they are GREAT for co-op with my friends and family, in the same room, side by side with intuitive controls. The Wii-mote is so good for the job, look up on the way it senses pointing with the Sensor Bar; not by fudge-y accelerometers, but by precise IR tracking in an ingeniously simple setup. Fast, precise and simple.

I really fail to see the point in PS3 and Xbox 360 sometimes, they just seem to be doing what PC is best at, has always been best at and I only play on consoles at all due to bullshit exclusivity.

I say to all PC gamers, if you are interested in ANY other platform, Xbox 360 and PS3 have little additive value, they are mostly trying (and failing) to do the same thing as PC in terms of shooters, RPGs and so on. Wii is DIFFERENT from PC, it EXCELS in doing the things that distinguish Consoles from PC, being good simple fun that is accessible for friends that are hanging out.
While I applaud your reply in it's even handedness, my response has already been quoted to death and I do not intend to start another quote chain on this subject. Let's just say, in general, the games on the Wii do not appeal to me and be done with it.
 

Jacob.pederson

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Treblaine said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
It's funny because they said "first-rate lineup of games" and the big thing people don't like about the Wii is the games. Ah well, keep dreaming Nintendo.
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Super Mario Galaxy
Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles
Mario Kart Wii
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Wario: The Shake Dimension (against expectations: quite good)
New Super Mario Bros. Wii
Muramasa: The Demon Blade
House of the Dead: Overkill
Dead Space: Extraction
Super Mario Galaxy 2
Metroid: Other M
Epic Mickey
Donkey Kong Country Returns
Zelda: Skyward Sword
Kirby's Epic yarn

We talking about the same Wii here? Because that is a SOLID line-up

In my book that beats Xbox 360's Exclusive line-up (though I'm only interested in; Halo 3/ODST/Reach, Crackdown 1+2, Fable 2, Gears 2+3, Bayonetta = 9 games, discounting PC releases)

It's clearly not the NUMBER of Wii games, it's the visual quality. None are in HD, most barely have better graphics than Gamecube. That I imagine can be hard for some but it makes little difference to me. Xbox 360 and PS3 graphics are so poor compared to PC gaming so all console gaming for me is not about "eye candy" at all, just needs good enough graphics to do the job... to enjoy the gameplay and artistic depiction.
Compared to yours and my pc, console graphics are a joke, yes. But, compared to a normal persons PC, console graphics are a few steps up. Even the Wii's graphics are a step up from an integrated laptop chip.
 

Onyx Oblivion

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Timbydude said:
Onyx Oblivion said:
Timbydude said:
Logan Westbrook said:
In our view, this indicates that Nintendo's customers...need less software than the typical Sony or Microsoft customer."
It's pretty much completely this. Most Wii owners rarely feel the need to buy any more games after they already have "that tennis game".
Actually, many Wii owners don't need to buy games. Period.

I bet that a large number of them just play Wii Sports.

Not to mention those who got the Black Wii, which comes bundled with Wii Sports RESORT.

OT: I don't see what this has to do with the DS, though. The DS has a large number of good games, in fact, the library is beginning to rival the PS2 in terms of overall quality.
Wii Sports is "that tennis game" I was referring to. Though, in my experience, a lot of people don't even understand that there's more than tennis and bowling on the disc.
I wonder if they are aware the Wii has an "Eject" button...
 

Treblaine

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Sir John The Net Knight said:
Publishers and game designers dislike the Wii, because there's only so much the system can do. And this is directly linked to it significant lack of processor power. Motion controls aside, as even Nintendo now sees that motion controls are a dead end, the fact that the Wii is only 1.5x the power of it's predecessor and it unable to render graphics in HD makes games that would normally be produced for the PS3 and 360 into an ugly and unplayable mess when ported over to the Wii. Oh don't get me wrong, the system is great if you want to download old Mario games from yesteryear and there are certainly a few titles that work well on the Wii because they're tailor-made to the system itself. But Nintendo would do a lot of good by throwing some money into making a new console that supports the current technology.
Publishers should love the Wii as developing for it is significantly cheaper as you don't need to hire a small army of coders for High Fidelity graphics seen on more powerful systems. But their problem is they think because they can skimp on the coders they can then skimp on the actual talented game makers, those who can craft great narratives and engaging gameplay.

Nintendo HAVE TOLD THEM THIS REPEATEDLY! They have said that Publishers should put their most talented CREATIVE minds on the projects, even if they only need minimal technical expenditure. Nintendo does this, they put MIYAMOTO on their games, legends like that. Where is Kojima's Wii game? What about Cliff Blezinksky's great Wii game? Capcom have put the effort in and they have delivered.

And you still need to spend quite a bit on tech of graphics as you have to get the most out of the system, in the process you can get very agreeable graphics;
Wii (Dead Space Extraction): http://wiimedia.ign.com/wii/image/article/963/963176/dead-space-extraction--20090316044514238_640w.jpg
Xbox 360 (Dead Space): http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/screenshots/deadspace/screenshot_0726_09.jpg

Now I already know that this opinion is going to be deluged by a salvo of "Gameplay is more important than Graphics!!!" responses. I've said this in the past and I will continue to say it. The two are not mutually exclusive. Good graphics and good gameplay working together, hand-in-hand make for truly better games. (Don't mention brown, muddy shooters. That's not good graphics OR good gameplay.) If Nintendo worked with it's third-parties, rather than smacking them with a whip and screaming at them like R. Lee Ermey grilling a bunch of bratty, emo teenagers. They could do so much more then they have been.
Perhaps the issue is semantics, Graphics is too broad a term as literally everything you see of the game is graphics. Perhaps it is right to say that "graphics fidelity doesn't NECESSARILY matter", graphics fidelity meaning sheer pixel-pumping, shader processing, resolution, anti-aliasing and so on.

I think what almost always matters is the game's ART! Whether 2D graphics on a side scrolling game or a super-realistic 3D open world, the fidelity must be high enough to represent the art that the developers want to depict. Realism needs a lot of graphics fidelity... but how much does that actually benefit the game's art? Well that is a matter of debate and opinion.

But consider Kirby's Epic Yarn, beautiful art, but technically low graphics fidelity, it's all just on a 2D plane and low 480p resolution...

Far too many publishers - largely responsible for Wii's shovel ware - think they can get away with games where they put the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM time, money or effort into the games' graphics fidelity, art and gameplay. Basically, they are exploiting the gullibility of Wii's demographic of largely new gamers who are naive to such ploys. Then you have the other extreme, that just try to crowbar "hardcore" titles into the Wii like Mad World.
 

Treblaine

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Jacob.pederson said:
Compared to yours and my pc, console graphics are a joke, yes. But, compared to a normal persons PC, console graphics are a few steps up. Even the Wii's graphics are a step up from an integrated laptop chip.
:S I'm an abnormal person? "Arrg, stay back he's a PC Gamer!!" Lol, never mind, just kidding.

See I don't know what typical graphics most people have on theor computers but I think there are a significant number of people out there that have graphics/CPU/Ram equal to or better than Xbox 360 at least. Also of course, almost any Desktop PC can be upgraded with a $90 / £65 graphics card to really spank the consoles. But yeah, integrated graphics suck and laptop leave no upgrade options.

SL33TBL1ND said:
While I applaud your reply in it's even handedness, my response has already been quoted to death and I do not intend to start another quote chain on this subject. Let's just say, in general, the games on the Wii do not appeal to me and be done with it.
Fair enough, we're all entitled to our personal preferences, but I hope you can see the genuine appeal that a real proper gamer might have for the Wii in doing what it does best.
 

Danzaivar

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The problem the Wii has is that the majority of the great games are the games nintendo makes. Third party publishers tend to release crap games compared to what nintendo put out...
 

SL33TBL1ND

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Treblaine said:
Jacob.pederson said:
Compared to yours and my pc, console graphics are a joke, yes. But, compared to a normal persons PC, console graphics are a few steps up. Even the Wii's graphics are a step up from an integrated laptop chip.
:S I'm an abnormal person? "Arrg, stay back he's a PC Gamer!!" Lol, never mind, just kidding.

See I don't know what typical graphics most people have on theor computers but I think there are a significant number of people out there that have graphics/CPU/Ram equal to or better than Xbox 360 at least. Also of course, almost any Desktop PC can be upgraded with a $90 / £65 graphics card to really spank the consoles. But yeah, integrated graphics suck and laptop leave no upgrade options.

SL33TBL1ND said:
While I applaud your reply in it's even handedness, my response has already been quoted to death and I do not intend to start another quote chain on this subject. Let's just say, in general, the games on the Wii do not appeal to me and be done with it.
Fair enough, we're all entitled to our personal preferences, but I hope you can see the genuine appeal that a real proper gamer might have for the Wii in doing what it does best.
Of course. I wouldn't dare refute the fact that people have different opinions and preferences.
 

Treblaine

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UberNoodle said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
UberNoodle said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
UberNoodle said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
UberNoodle said:
You can stick to whatever system you want, but you can do so without nonchalantly dismissing the gems that the Wii library has.
See, there's a problem with this statement. Want to know what it is? I can.
Fine, be an a$$hole about it. I guess it would hurt too much to discuss the Wii with more objectivity.
Thankyou, good sir. That was some damn fine entertainment.
Well, you are clearly evidence that even The Escapist isn't an 'escape' from arrogant basement dwellers. Thank YOU for the confirmation.
I don't have a basement. Plus, this was all in good fun, no need to get pissed of at the internet, my friend.
Not pissed, at all, my friend.

Seems suitable for this strand of this thread

You are BOTH failing to make reasoned cases. Explore the source of your disagreement, don't try to just get the other to back down, as even if that does happen neither of you have proven anything about the subject you care to talk about.
 

Treblaine

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Sir John The Net Knight said:
Treblaine said:
Snipping fanboy vs. fanboy.


Seems suitable for this strand of this thread

You are BOTH failing to make reasoned cases. Explore the source of your disagreement, don't try to just get the other to back down, as even if that does happen neither of you have proven anything about the subject you care to talk about.
The problem with this argument is that even when reasoned cases are made, the arguments will always devolve in to fanboy warfare. Every time I take a position on the state of the Wii, and my position is far more neutral and grounded in factual evidence than it used to be, I generally find my inbox filled with people telling me I'm wrong. And their arguments can look well-thought out on the surface, but reading between the lines shows a lot of apologetic passes and deflection of blame. The Wii is going down in history as a successful experiment that introduced the world to gaming. (Wow, it only took 30 years to "introduce it".) But to try to argue the perfection of the system in the face of it's obvious problems is an exercise in delusion and fanboyism. But at least those people are trying to make a case, albeit a flawed one. As opposed to mudslinging fanboys who can't even be bothered to make an argument and those exist in all ports of gaming call.
Two wrongs don't make a right. And if reasoned arguments don't work, you mustn't let anger get to you and resort to even less effective but more emotive debating tactics.

You have three choices:

(a) ignore them. Don't waste your time if you think they are being unreasonable
(b) if more patient, persist with reasoned arguments but you MUST be open yourself and not defensive.
(c) Explore their viewpoint but most importantly your own. The facts are the facts, but it's the way we all look at them that counts.

I'd also take objection to some of your comments purely on the debating method, not on actual opinion of any particular system

"But to try to argue the perfection of the system in the face of it's obvious problems is an exercise in delusion and fanboyism."

Perfection is a STRONG word. Why can't something just be... good? Just because "fanboys" exaggerate praise for it don't mean the exact inverse is true; that it is the exact opposite of perfection.

Would you not agree that the Wii is at least good?

I think it's success is because it is both GOOD and ACCESSIBLE! And that is not just entirely down to the motion peripherals, but Nintendo's entire business strategy and creative approach that to spite everyone being invited no one seems to be able to replicate. Mario Kart Wii is a GOOD GAME but the reason it has sold 22 million copies (more than Modern Warfare 2) is because of how accessible it is while retaining all the great gameplay elements.

I'd like to explore your viewpoint, that you take rather too much or an "exceptional" view to gaming, that if it is not the best in all areas (exceptional) then it is not worth it at all. I think you are opposed to "new blood" coming into the gaming industry as disruptive, that Publishers will be more interested in their money and their interests than your own so that you end up marginalised.

I haven't got a particular problem if that happens, it'll be a return to the Good Old Days when all the hardcore games were on PC and Console was for the downmarket/massmarket arcade fun games to play casually. You know; Quake and C&C on PC at the LAN parties, Split-screen shooters and Kart Racers for the house parties. That's my bias laid out there, that's why I don't see Wii as a threat, not to my precious PC gaming at least :)
 

Wandrecanada

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If you're going to market your hardware to people who can't justify the purchase don't be surprised when they don't support their purchase later.

It's not that the Wii's are inferior platforms. It's that the demographic they aim at aren't interested in gaming as a hobby. They just want to be part of the fad.
 

UberNoodle

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Treblaine said:
UberNoodle said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
UberNoodle said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
UberNoodle said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
UberNoodle said:
You can stick to whatever system you want, but you can do so without nonchalantly dismissing the gems that the Wii library has.
See, there's a problem with this statement. Want to know what it is? I can.
Fine, be an a$$hole about it. I guess it would hurt too much to discuss the Wii with more objectivity.
Thankyou, good sir. That was some damn fine entertainment.
Well, you are clearly evidence that even The Escapist isn't an 'escape' from arrogant basement dwellers. Thank YOU for the confirmation.
I don't have a basement. Plus, this was all in good fun, no need to get pissed of at the internet, my friend.
Not pissed, at all, my friend.
Seems suitable for this strand of this thread

You are BOTH failing to make reasoned cases. Explore the source of your disagreement, don't try to just get the other to back down, as even if that does happen neither of you have proven anything about the subject you care to talk about.
Excuse me but I did make a fair go at discussion but didn't get much effort in return. I don't see any reason to continue putting more in if that's the case. And I don't consider what I said to be something that needs proving. It is a simple fact that the list of good Wii games posted by another poster were NOT all 'reboots and on rail shooters'. I simply asked for a more balanced appraisal of the Wii catalogue.
 

WhiteTigerShiro

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Onyx Oblivion said:
Poke around. You'll find Okami, Sin & Punishment 2, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, and a surprising number of titles. It just gets hidden in the mountains of shovelware.

In fact, I only own 2 Nintendo titles on my Wii. Metroid Prime Trilogy and...Twilight Princess.
The only problem is that you've probably listed over half of the good 3rd Party games right there. Meanwhile I could list 10x as many good 3rd Party games on the 360 and still have plenty to pick from as "further examples".

Nintendo's weakness always has been, and seems is continuing to be, a lack of 3rd Party support. The rare No More Heroes or Okami is more exception than rule*. The question isn't about whether such games exist, it's a matter of there not being enough.

*Especially when you consider that Okami was a PS2 port, and NMH is in the process of being ported to the 360 (and I think PS3). So not only is 3rd Party support rare, but its even more rarely exclusive.