Pakistan Bans Facebook Over "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day"

[Geekmaster]

when did i say violence is the best response to an offensive picture?

Also im not saying you should believe in god or have any religion for that matter. All im trying to convey is that relhion does deserve some respect. and my physics example wasnt to prove there is a god just that scientists accept or "believe" in a theory that hasnt been proven but is just convenient to what they perceive is going on in space. Religion is what people BELIEVE in, and it gives them an explanation as to the meaning of existence.[/quote]

Science is about trying to answer a question in the best possible way. You don't "believe" fx your physics example, you merely accept it as the standing explanation untill you you get closer to the factual truth. Furthermore the explanations delivered are either conclusions of rigorious testing or simply not accepted as usefull.

Religion however... It is indeed something you believe in. In fact, it's something you CHOOSE to believe in. That means you do NOT get to treat it as fact.

This is where we enter the grey zone of "respect". So, the muslim world is outraged because some people drew Muhammed? Too bad for them.

What if I believe that we all originate from the big orange/purple/pink clown/ape midget? Does that mean that anything that is either big, orange, purple, pink, a clown, an ape or a midget is now subjected to censorship because I'd feel offended at the mere mention of any of those subjects?

Believe all you want, that's fine. You're still dealing with fiction (I even get the feeling you actually realize this) so it's vital that you keep it to yourself. Otherwise ANYONE are free to react however they bloody please to anything.

In short: Religion is one of mankind's worst enemies because for every 1000 people who simply use it as a mental supporting pillar, there's a sick wackjob who takes it much too seriously.

Edit: I shall agree that religion does deserve a small dose of respect. As in that we should largely leave people be with their quirks.
That does'nt meant we're not allowed to make fun of Muhammed, Jesus, Buddha, Spiderman, King Kong and myself.

Bottom line is that respect should first and foremost come from the religious. Why? Because they have no right to impose shit they made up (or shit learned from someone else who made it up) on people like me.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

And people berate me for wanting Islam banned.

THIS is one of the many reasons why.

 

[chaos order]

when did i say violence is the best response to an offensive picture?

Also im not saying you should believe in god or have any religion for that matter. All im trying to convey is that relhion does deserve some respect. and my physics example wasnt to prove there is a god just that scientists accept or "believe" in a theory that hasnt been proven but is just convenient to what they perceive is going on in space. Religion is what people BELIEVE in, and it gives them an explanation as to the meaning of existence.

Science is about trying to answer a question in the best possible way. You don't "believe" fx your physics example, you merely accept it as the standing explanation untill you you get closer to the factual truth. Furthermore the explanations delivered are either conclusions of rigorious testing or simply not accepted as usefull.

Religion however... It is indeed something you believe in. In fact, it's something you CHOOSE to believe in. That means you do NOT get to treat it as fact.

This is where we enter the grey zone of "respect". So, the muslim world is outraged because some people drew Muhammed? Too bad for them.

What if I believe that we all originate from the big orange/purple/pink clown/ape midget? Does that mean that anything that is either big, orange, purple, pink, a clown, an ape or a midget is now subjected to censorship because I'd feel offended at the mere mention of any of those subjects?

Believe all you want, that's fine. You're still dealing with fiction (I even get the feeling you actually realize this) so it's vital that you keep it to yourself. Otherwise ANYONE are free to react however they bloody please to anything.

In short: Religion is one of mankind's worst enemies because for every 1000 people who simply use it as a mental supporting pillar, there's a sick wackjob who takes it much too seriously.

Edit: I shall agree that religion does deserve a small dose of respect. As in that we should largely leave people be with their quirks.
That does'nt meant we're not allowed to make fun of Muhammed, Jesus, Buddha, Spiderman, King Kong and myself.

Bottom line is that respect should first and foremost come from the religious. Why? Because they have no right to impose shit they made up (or shit learned from someone else who made it up) on people like me.[/quote]







science it self has been use to make ludicrous claims as well as ive said many times in this thread. during the enlightenment when science grew in popularity and started to become the dmoinant way of thought, jews were labelled as a inferior species rather than a religion. In addition ( I dont know why i never aid this beofre wither) black people were considered an inferior race. although both these claims were not true they were scientific "theories" at a time. so its not necessarily the religions fault that people choose to misuse it to justify their cause, but the people themselves.

And yes im kinda on the ball whether i believe in god or not, i prefer the idea that there is a god cause i just dont like the idea that when u you die its over. in addition i dont mind if u make fun of my religion in jest or even mohammad, its just that muahammad is not supposed to be depicted in Islam. ANd yes your not islam so why should you have to abide by it, fair enough, all im saying is to not do it out of respect for other peoples belief, rather than it being taboo.

on a side note i loled when u equated religious figure to spider man and king kong and your self ( i saw that you narcicist)

 

[RaikuFA]

i dont get it

there are videos of westboro wiping their ass with the quaran and noone does anything

cartoonists show a prophet just sitting there doing nothing and every achmed wants their head on a platter

reminds me of when they wanted jojos bizzare adventure banned everywhere cause the big bads reading the quaran

 

[dodo1331]

And people berate me for wanting Islam banned.

THIS is one of the many reasons why.

Any kind of religion (or anything in general) being banned will cause it to be more widespread than it was before the ban.

See: Christianity, Prohibition, and Marijuana.

 

[Oh Hephaestus]

i dont get it

there are videos of westboro wiping their ass with the quaran and noone does anything

cartoonists show a prophet just sitting there doing nothing and every achmed wants their head on a platter

reminds me of when they wanted jojos bizzare adventure banned everywhere cause the big bads reading the quaran

Because this works as better propaganda against the muslim nations. No one likes Westboro. But cartoonists? That's quite the worthy freedom of speech issue. For muslims, this demonizes them more, makes them a little less human, and that leads to more apathy in the west(especially among the young, which sympathy is most likely to develop). Which is very useful, for various of reasons.

 

[GamingAwesome1]

I don't understand why people are so bothered by the fact that drawing Mohammed is bad in the Islam religion.

When in your daily life would you ever be actually hindered by the inability to draw him.

Just leave them be and respect their beliefs.

You've got it all wrong- we're not bothered by the fact that drawing Muhammed is forbidden in Islam, but rather, that a minority of Muslims are so aggressive in their beliefs, that drawing Muhammed is forbidden EVERYWHERE. We aren't hindered by our inability to draw him, but the foundations and beliefs of democracy (which people gave their lives to uphold) state that we should be able to if we so wish.

There we go. That made more sense to me.

Okay, fair enough I understand what you guys are saying now.

 

[KidKarolus]

I doubt anyone will read this far, but for those who do... It is my understanding that the image of Muhammad would not be depicted because he wished for people to worship Allah, as opposed to himself...

I would say that by threatening death for those depictions of Muhammad, they are worshiping his likeness all the same. I further find it interesting that the Middle East, which was a far more enlightened than Europe is now less liberal than it was prior to European intervention and invasion... Maybe, the issue of Islamic fundamentalism could be better dealt with if people payed less attention to extremists and more attention to the religion itself. Christianity is not judged for its fundamentalists, Judaism for Zionists, and Buddhism for sages; perhaps the same standard should be applied to Islam.

 

[robobengt]

But being disrespectful towards that choice is being disrespectful to the person for having made that choice. The two are very intrinsically linked.

First of all, most people haven't made a concious choice. They were brought up within a certain belief system and that is what they live by. I will always have more respect for you if you've conciously chosen your religion through serious reflection circling the different ones that exist and come to understand yourself that "yes, this is what reflects my own thinking and that's why I choose to be a part of this religion". I know these people exist and that's great for them. Well done. I don't agree but at least you've thought it through.

Actually, I don't think the two are linked in the manner you speak of. You can respect different aspects of different people. Personally, I can respect people with opinions I don't respect. Maybe that's just a difference between us?

You just said it was stupidity, implying that they are indeed idiots. But what makes it misguided? Your opinion. Why is your opinion more valid than theirs?

Yes, harsh words tends to lead to a defensive stance later on in a discussion. If you want to enter a discussion regarding philoshopical interpretations of opinions, well...It could be fun.

Yes, it's my opinion. It's based on the things I've experienced throughout my life. My opinion is more valid to me, than their opinion is to me. Since we all have our time on this earth, I've come to the conclusion that my opinion is what matters to me. My opinion can change if I see a good reason for it. So far I don't. I see religion and the belief in a higher being as something that should've been abandoned long ago. It's become obsolete.

Let's say, for sake of argument, you believe that gay people shouldn't be allowed to vote. No matter what you say, I will say that you are wrong. I will also say that your opinion in that case is stupid and I will never respect it. What makes my opinion more valid than others in this case? Nothing. There are no absolute truths.

But as a culture we evolve, and I say it's time to evolve beyond the need of an invisible friend who will help us in our time of need, which would give us the opportunity to help ourselves.

 

[randomrob]

This is why religion and state should be separate everywhere, so that people can have their basic freedoms without having to be told what to do by bullshit religious dogma like this. If people want to draw a guy who's been dead for thousands of years in a slightly mocking way they should be allowed to. I don't understand what the big fucking deal is. Religions need to stop expecting everyone to follow their religion in order respect it. Islam is particularly guilty of this. If you want to eat halal meat and cover your women in black sheets that's fine, if you don't want to draw Mohammed that's also fine, no one's forcing you to. Just don't expect me to follow your bullshit beliefs. People wouldn't make this level of fuss if someone drew Jesus or Buddha, so go and fuck yourselves.

 

[chaos order]

This is why religion and state should be separate everywhere, so that people can have their basic freedoms without having to be told what to do by bullshit religious dogma like this. If people want to draw a guy who's been dead for thousands of years in a slightly mocking way they should be allowed to. I don't understand what the big fucking deal is. Religions need to stop expecting everyone to follow their religion in order respect it. Islam is particularly guilty of this. If you want to eat halal meat and cover your women in black sheets that's fine, if you don't want to draw Mohammed that's also fine, no one's forcing you to. Just don't expect me to follow your bullshit beliefs. People wouldn't make this level of fuss if someone drew Jesus or Buddha, so go and fuck yourselves.

your assuming that muslims are mad that mohammad was drawn in an insullting manner. Thats not the case Mohammad isnt supposed to be drawn whether or not the picture is positive or negative in Islam. other religions dont get as ticked because jesus, buddah, etc, are allowed to be dipicted. Yes, you dont have to follow out religious rules tht we choose to live by, however i would hope that you and other people would show some respect or common courtesy about other peoples faith seeing as this page insults muslims as a whole.

 

[randomrob]

This is why religion and state should be separate everywhere, so that people can have their basic freedoms without having to be told what to do by bullshit religious dogma like this. If people want to draw a guy who's been dead for thousands of years in a slightly mocking way they should be allowed to. I don't understand what the big fucking deal is. Religions need to stop expecting everyone to follow their religion in order respect it. Islam is particularly guilty of this. If you want to eat halal meat and cover your women in black sheets that's fine, if you don't want to draw Mohammed that's also fine, no one's forcing you to. Just don't expect me to follow your bullshit beliefs. People wouldn't make this level of fuss if someone drew Jesus or Buddha, so go and fuck yourselves.

your assuming that muslims are mad that mohammad was drawn in an insullting manner. Thats not the case Mohammad isnt supposed to be drawn whether or not the picture is positive or negative in Islam. other religions dont get as ticked because jesus, buddah, etc, are allowed to be dipicted. Yes, you dont have to follow out religious rules tht we choose to live by, however i would hope that you and other people would show some respect or common courtesy about other peoples faith seeing as this page insults muslims as a whole.

Perhaps i did get a little heated there and i shouldn't have called the beliefs bullshit. That was wrong and it's not something I usually do or intend to do again as i have nothing against Islam, just extremists. However I would still argue that it is possible to respect the Muslim religion without following it. Why can't a non-muslim draw mohammed? we're not bound by that rule.

 

[chaos order]

This is why religion and state should be separate everywhere, so that people can have their basic freedoms without having to be told what to do by bullshit religious dogma like this. If people want to draw a guy who's been dead for thousands of years in a slightly mocking way they should be allowed to. I don't understand what the big fucking deal is. Religions need to stop expecting everyone to follow their religion in order respect it. Islam is particularly guilty of this. If you want to eat halal meat and cover your women in black sheets that's fine, if you don't want to draw Mohammed that's also fine, no one's forcing you to. Just don't expect me to follow your bullshit beliefs. People wouldn't make this level of fuss if someone drew Jesus or Buddha, so go and fuck yourselves.

your assuming that muslims are mad that mohammad was drawn in an insullting manner. Thats not the case Mohammad isnt supposed to be drawn whether or not the picture is positive or negative in Islam. other religions dont get as ticked because jesus, buddah, etc, are allowed to be dipicted. Yes, you dont have to follow out religious rules tht we choose to live by, however i would hope that you and other people would show some respect or common courtesy about other peoples faith seeing as this page insults muslims as a whole.

Perhaps i did get a little heated there and i shouldn't have called the beliefs bullshit. That was wrong and it's not something I usually do or intend to do again as i have nothing against Islam, just extremists. However I would still argue that it is possible to respect the Muslim religion without following it. Why can't a non-muslim draw mohammed? we're not bound by that rule.

well im not saying YOU CANT RAWR, just that it would be more respectful and courtious to be more sensible on the matter. Even simply understanding why muslims get bent up about things like this would prevent such events from occuring. I also think that the page should stay due to freedom of speech and what note. However, i find that it is an abuse of said right because people like to use it as a free pass to be a dick. This is not what was intended by this right.

 

[Superbeast]

First of all, most people haven't made a concious choice. They were brought up within a certain belief system and that is what they live by. I will always have more respect for you if you've conciously chosen your religion through serious reflection circling the different ones that exist and come to understand yourself that "yes, this is what reflects my own thinking and that's why I choose to be a part of this religion". I know these people exist and that's great for them. Well done. I don't agree but at least you've thought it through.

That's one hell of a generalisation right there.

I was brought up Protestant, but I'm an atheist. So are most atheists. There are a great deal of people who convert to various religions for personal reasons, even those they have never been exposed to previously, even when not under threat (historically).

Anyone who truly follows *any* religion understands that it is a personal choice to follow it. Hell, it's even written in the Quran (paraphrasing heavily): "Do not try to force unbelievers to believe, for if Allah wanted them to believe then he would have made them so. Do you think you better know Allah's judgement than he?"

A lot of people are of a certain religion because of how they were raised, I grant you. But I wouldn't say it is "most", particularly in the modern age with wide exposure to other viewpoints and cultures.

Actually, I don't think the two are linked in the manner you speak of. You can respect different aspects of different people. Personally, I can respect people with opinions I don't respect. Maybe that's just a difference between us?

Perhaps it is. I see not respecting the choice someone's made as being a disrespect to that person, even if you respect them otherwise. Criticise it, by all means, but do so respectfully and tactfully (which is partly why I feel the day was misguided). As you say, it is probably a difference between us.

Yes, harsh words tends to lead to a defensive stance later on in a discussion. If you want to enter a discussion regarding philoshopical interpretations of opinions, well...It could be fun.

Normally I'd take you up on that, but I've just finished my Uni (Classics) exams and am looking forwards to spending the next week with the girlfriend and likely heavily inebriated. To say my mind is mush would be a hell of an understatement!

Yes, it's my opinion. It's based on the things I've experienced throughout my life. My opinion is more valid to me, than their opinion is to me. Since we all have our time on this earth, I've come to the conclusion that my opinion is what matters to me. My opinion can change if I see a good reason for it. So far I don't. I see religion and the belief in a higher being as something that should've been abandoned long ago. It's become obsolete.

That would be our main philosophical argument point I feel. Your opinion is indeed more valid to you, but when expressed in an international/large-scale way (such as this day on the internet, or the cartoons in a national paper) then one has to consider other peoples' opinions and how what you say/do/draw will affect that, and perhaps keep it to yourself (or at least do it respectfully) - not out of self-censorship, but out of politeness.

Let's say, for sake of argument, you believe that gay people shouldn't be allowed to vote. No matter what you say, I will say that you are wrong. I will also say that your opinion in that case is stupid and I will never respect it. What makes my opinion more valid than others in this case? Nothing. There are no absolute truths.

Opinions can never be wrong, but that argument (much like this with religion) can be argued from a factual standpoint. I hope you don't mind if I don't elaborate on that (as I'll likely waffle for ages)?

But as a culture we evolve, and I say it's time to evolve beyond the need of an invisible friend who will help us in our time of need, which would give us the opportunity to help ourselves.

I agree - I'm an atheist. But at the same time I acknowledge that for many people religion is more about the "magical sky wizard" part and more about being good people, having a moral guide, and it's mental (ie spiritual) support when the time gets tough. Yes, you can argue that religion no longer provides the first two, or perhaps rather is unnecessary, but that final one is a really important factor nonetheless.

Reminds me of an old adage: "There's no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole".

It's also to bear in mind that the Middle East, as a whole, has a more insular culture (which is slowly changing) and has only been exposed to the worst parts of the West (warfare, trampling the rights and needs of people for capital gain etc) and don't see our, and I hate to use the word here but it'll do, "enlightened" culture in regards to social morality and lack of religious fervour.

Islam is believed to be undergoing a "reformation", so given time it should "lighten up" like the other Abrahamic religions have, however I feel that this day/event is only going to hold that change up, rather than help them to learn to "deal with it", which seems to be one of the primary goals of the day (from other posters - not saying you have expressed this view). That is another of my primary disagreements with the event (sorry, just felt I'd clarify. It's not really relevant to what we're discussing now, but is to some of what I have written).

 

[Valkyrie101]

Isnt Hindu the prominent religion in India?

Yes, it's mostly Hindu, with quite a lot of Sikhs, but also 13% Muslim.

 

[Rakkana]

I think if they don't want someone making fun of their beliefs its there right to be pissed.

But, the second you make a death threat you've lost my respect.

 

[Anticitizen_Two]

Honestly, why even draw Mohammed? It's just being disrespectful of other people's beliefs. That page is just pointless rebellion. Show some respect. Seriously.

 

[dalek sec]

Respect people's beliefs, and you know what, they might actually start to respect yours.

Sorry if it seems like I'm singling you out, Akalabeth (I'm not, honestly), but that's a pretty naive statement. While you are right about that with most people and religions, radicals of any religion won't ever respect the views of others; they can't be reasoned with; they can't be convinced with logic.

I'm reminded of those "God Hates America" people, as well as the Christian Reconstructionists. They're indoctrinated beyond the point of reason, and they won't stop screaming until everyone in the world agrees with their narrow views.

I'm fine with mutual respect among religions, but do you really think radicals are going to respect first-world culture just by us doing the same first? I think that's ludicrous.

I have to agree as well with your post Artist, I'm fine with mutual respect and everything but slowly all that feeling is being grounded to dust by radicals and their actions. I'm slowly reaching the "I don't give a frak anymore" stage and wish we would do something about it.

(To mods: Please do not ban me, I'm not wishing the deaths of innocent people, just frustrated by the events in the world today.)

 

[KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life]

I wish other countries had an excuse to ban that thing.