Airsoftslayer93 said:
bravetoaster said:
Airsoftslayer93 said:
If you all really cared about animal rights you would all be vegans and would support PETA.
Correct. Thankfully, most people care about animal
welfare, instead. Animals are not of equal (or even comparable) value to humans nor do they deserve (or can they use, comprehend, or appreciate) "rights". Animals used by humans (as pets, for labor or peaceful entertainment, for food, or for advancing medicine [for both animals and humans]) should be treated with kindness and compassion and should be treated with the respect that animals deserve (i.e., don't kill them or cause them pain for no reason). Also, while not eating meat is nice, it's not a luxury everyone can manage, and veganism is downright silly, if only for the "no honey" aspect of it.
I disagree with you, Animals may not be seen as equal to humans (natural emotional bond to other humans), but they are certainly comparible, Animals feel pain and emotions, and thus should be treated as people. Eating meat is far more expensive than eating vegetables.
I would like to know what your other objections to a vegan diet are.
And I also want you to consider, what is a person? why do animals not qualify?
I think we're (at least possibly) in agreement, just defining our terms differently. Much as I love animals, I would never say that they should be treated as humans because of the broad implications that come with that. I see nothing wrong with owning animals as pets or to help with labor, provided that the animals have all their needs provided for and treated well. "Owning" humans is absolutely vile. I'm fine with other animals killing each other, whether for food, entertainment, whatever. I'm not okay with humans killing other humans. Ever. Animals can certainly feel pain, and, thus, should NOT be subjected to pain or go untreated when in pain (unless necessary or it's impossible to help them). Here's the big difference, though: while most mammals can react to things and behave in such a way that you or I may think "AWWW! It's scared!" or "It's angry!" or project any number of human emotions onto them, there's no way (that I'm aware of--if anyone's seen scientific evidence otherwise,
please let me know about it) to know that they actually
feel emotions or, for that matter, can
suffer as humans can. So, when it comes to most animals--rodents, rabbits, cats, dogs, sheep, cows, etc.--we should treat them well and care for them to the best of our abilities, but until/unless they achieve a level of intelligence that they can communicate complex ideas with us, I'd argue that they're not comparable to humans and thus should not be regarded as having human rights. Animals should be entitled to humane treatment when humans use them (and humans who mistreat animals should be punished). (Note: Let's leave primates out of this--they've got big ol' brains and are very close to human and that can be its own separate matter entirely that I'm not even remotely able to discuss in an intelligent manner.)
My objection to a strict vegan diet pretty much begins and ends with honey. That one is genuinely silly. If you don't understand how/why, find a local beekeeper or beekeeping organization and talk to someone who's got a few hives--beekeepers love their bees, take care of them, protect them from disease, the elements, and other threats, and, if there's honey to spare, will harvest some of their honey once or twice a year. Bees get to merrily do their thing for their short lives, keepers get a share of honey and wax, farmers get their crops pollinated (so you and I can have fruits, veggies, and nuts). Everyone wins--it's a pretty cool, symbiotic relationship. Beyond that, the only thing I could think of objecting to about veganism is self-labeling; if you don't eat meat, awesome, but if you eat meat sometimes, I don't see anything wrong with that (and if you
must have meat for every meal, you may want to try new things).
Lastly (sorry, this is all long), re: "What is a person/why aren't animals people?" People are a) biologically humans and b) (at least when healthy and developed normally) capable of complex communication, higher thinking, experiencing complex emotions, can think abstractly and imagine things (heck, we're on a gaming forum), and are known to be capable of suffering and experiencing psychological trauma. If a living creature meets either or both of those standards, I will be the first to take its side as deserving person-hood. The problem is that most animals (again, mostly talking about wild/pet/food/research animals) can't communicate complex thoughts as far as I'm aware, so we can't know if they can imagine things, dream, empathize, or experience anything like human suffering (not pain, but suffering--the latter being psychological and able to persist long beyond the former and/or in the absence of the former).
I.Muir said:
Elementary - Dear Watson said:
PETA like animals right? They don't like animals dying... But animals kill other animals... sometimes for fun! (My dog kills spiders... just because he can! Incidentally, he is my hero!) So they are being hypocritical there for a start... how can you hate the killing of animals, but like lions that kill wilderbeast?
PETA approves of no human to animal interactions at all
They euthanize huge numbers of animals instead of caring for them
Their ceo bragged about how many animals she has personally euthanized
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/
Airsoftslayer93 said:
bravetoaster said:
Airsoftslayer93 said:
If you all really cared about animal rights you would all be vegans and would support PETA.
Correct. Thankfully, most people care about animal
welfare, instead. Animals are not of equal (or even comparable) value to humans nor do they deserve (or can they use, comprehend, or appreciate) "rights". Animals used by humans (as pets, for labor or peaceful entertainment, for food, or for advancing medicine [for both animals and humans]) should be treated with kindness and compassion and should be treated with the respect that animals deserve (i.e., don't kill them or cause them pain for no reason). Also, while not eating meat is nice, it's not a luxury everyone can manage, and veganism is downright silly, if only for the "no honey" aspect of it.
I disagree with you, Animals may not be seen as equal to humans (natural emotional bond to other humans), but they are certainly comparible, Animals feel pain and emotions, and thus should be treated as people. Eating meat is far more expensive than eating vegetables.
I would like to know what your other objections to a vegan diet are.
And I also want you to consider, what is a person? why do animals not qualify?
Ive got an few objections
There are some amino acids totally unobtainable from a vegan diet
Until recently large amounts of carbohydrates and sugars were not a part of the human diet
You need good old fashioned animal fats in order to help the growth of your brain whilst young
Specifically, what amino acids are you referring to? I'm not a vegan or knowledgeable about nutrition and my wife's not around to confirm/debunk/clarify your claim for me.
If we're talking on a scale of hundreds/thousands of years with "recently" then the same is true for protein and fat; our ancestors didn't have supermarkets, planes and trains and boats capable of transporting food thousands of miles across countries and oceans. Given that our brains
require sugar to function, however, it's a safe bet that we've been eating carbohydrates pretty consistently throughout time (although it's also likely that, historically, we had a much more varied diet than the standard American diet).
Regarding fats--if you change "need" to "can use", then you're correct. As it is, you're mistaken: http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html#fattyacids (if you don't feel like following the link: you can get essential fatty acids through vegetables, nuts, and various plants/plant oils.)