Piracy, simply put.

[JoesshittyOs]

Now you are mixing things. Previously, you were talking about FREELOADING, not taking away profits.

I've never changed what I was talking about. Where does it say they are both mutually exclusive?

If you go along for a ride where you otherwise couldn't pay, you enjoy the benefits of freeloading.

If you deny profits that you would otherwise pay, you are actively causing harm

You ever heard of "The tragedy of the commons". Look it up. That's basically piracy in a nutshell. He is hurting profits. Saying "I wouldn't have paid for it even if I could afford it" is the single, feeblest excuse you can possibly have. That's the same thing you hear people who rob stores say. You're aren't taking money away from them, but you are using a product that they have put a price tag on for absolutely no fee, which in turn hurts them later down the road.

Is it as bad as straight up stealing from some one? No. That's why we get people like you who have rather deranged views when it comes to things like this. It hurts the people who made the game. If you really wouldn't have paid to play the games in the first place, than tough shit. You don't get to play the game.

The point is, that right now, you are freeloading. Not paying anyone, having free entertainment, instead of buying a game at the same time. you are hurting the gaming industry, if you are freeloading here instead of paying for their games.

This... makes absolutely no sense. Seriously, the more I read it the more it just baffles me how you came to this conclusion.

Is this really how you justify piracy? Because this is pathetic.

 

[Denariax]

People would say that it's unethical to pirate. I say its unethical to steal on both sides of the spectrum. Stop making crap that I pay my own hard earned money on.

Yes, you agreed to pay for it and then it's stealing when you're not pleased enough with the product you bought. That's stupid. They can't steal from you because they have nothing that you didn't choose to give them.

If I don't 'want' it and I use it as a pseudo-demo, especially when there's no actual demo, then why should I shell out cash if they didn't deserve it

 

[Denariax]

People would say that it's unethical to pirate. I say its unethical to steal on both sides of the spectrum. Stop making crap that I pay my own hard earned money on.

Yes, you agreed to pay for it and then it's stealing when you're not pleased enough with the product you bought. That's stupid. They can't steal from you because they have nothing that you didn't choose to give them.

If I don't 'want' it and I use it as a pseudo-demo, especially when there's no actual demo, then why should I shell out cash if they didn't deserve it

I'm still waiting on the explanation for how it would be stealing from you. Or are you going to ignore that I pointed out how that made no sense at all?

Theft by taking out stuff from the original game to sell later would be one. Don't give me the "then don't buy it" clause, that's just giving producers the shoddy logic of "people like having half a game".

Sure, I don't 'have' to buy it. But say that, for example, I just wanted to do something like take a character model from it for research. Would I shell 60 bucks out just to have that character model? No. Of course, this is a particularly shoddy explanation because not everyone would do it just to see that model.

I believe in the removal of society where things like greed are replaced with the ways of old where skill meant more than how much money you have. If I can't afford to shell out money for every single game I'm curious about, then I'll use my 'skill' to be able to play it anyways. Call it unethical, but so is everyone else.

 

[Dr Jones]

let me put it even simpler-er: pirates are lazy freeloaders and publishers are greedy scum-bags.

done!

So, according to you, a pirate that buys more games than someone who doesn't pirate ever, but still pirates a game every month or so is a lazy freeloaders?

There is no way to see this as a black or white topic, it can only be seen as a case by case topic.

Yes. Yes they are. Especially if they buy tons of games and STILL pirate, they are greedy freeloaders, they could manage with the "tons" of games they already bought, right?

 

[emeraldrafael]

I always have to wonder when I see these kinda arguments that Piracy isnt that bad how the person would feel if they were the victim of piracy and if they'd feel the same.

...

That and why it matters if its from a corporation or an individual. If you pirate from an individual, just means decrease the chance of another corporation forming.

not that i condone piracy, and the argument the OP put forth is rather... flawed :/

EDIT:

Okay. Piracy.

If I download a game, the developers don't get paid.

But what if, like me, you borrow games from your friends? Or the video store? I borrow an Xbox game a week from my local video store. Does that make me a pirate? Because the developers aren't getting my money?

Under Anti-Piracy laws, they'd have to be banned too. And all content would have to be strictly enforced so I don't loan my friends my Xbox games.

Also, a full price game in Australia is $100-$120. In America I believe it is still around $60. Why? When our dollar is equal or greater than yours and has been for several months?

That's why I 'Pirate' games from my friends or the video store. Because I don't like being ripped off.

If you borrow through a store (which is called RENTING legally) and is a practice developers already knowof and plan their incomes around. if you borrow from a friend, its second hand, so the game is paid for and the corporation doesnt lose profit.

So the first example is perfectly legal to do. The second dealing with personal relations borrowing is under the Used/second hand side of the argument. Neither is piracy.

As to your price comparison, blame the market you live in. its still no excuse to pirate, since most of the reasons (if not all) can be boiled back down to your country's politics/laws/views on the game industry and not the developer themselves just saying lets screw over australia, cause its funny.

EDIT2:

...
Now the people who claim that Piracy is wrong, answer me this:

Think of a game that is coming out in the future that you want to buy. Would you buy it if it cost you:
A) £60,000
B) Nothing.

In theory, we should have 0% answering 'Yes' to A, and 100% answering 'Yes' to B. Here, then, is where Piracy comes in.
...

then why pay for anything? If you can get it for free through some illegal act (which what you're doing is illegally copying an idea that is produced and owned by someone, which is copyright infringement [and still a theft if some way where you're taking the idea and not providing compensation for it], which is still illegal) then why not? lets take the car example.

If you needed a <url=http://www.edmunds.com/rolls-royce/phantom/2011/?sub=sedan>car for the future would you spend:

A) $380000
B) Nothing.

Then in theory no one is going to PAY for it when they can just take it. it doesnt mean its legal, and it certainly doesnt mean its right.

And if everyone just up and said fuckthat noise Im not paying for anyhting again, then money would stop circulating, and slowly as it added up, that means less money is in a market, which is less to go around (this assuming we dont want to print more and avoid inflating the currency). No money circulating, no money that can be used to buy or pay things and reward someone who has done work. No work, no product. Which is all well and good if its just a few companies for games, but then you start to see gas going away, farmers stop growing food, and the power is no longer working. because why pay when you can just take, completely ignoring the otherside of that financial market equation.

 

[Dr. Pepper Unlimited]

Piracy's not stealing, because nothing is taken

Your entire argument is null and void from the first sentence. Piracy is stealing. The act of downloading an illegal copy of [insert item here] is the theft of digital property, which is copyrighted under the law of that country, which constitutes stealing. The item my not be a tangible product, but you're still committing a crime.

There. Can we please be done with these moronic threads now? -_-

 

[wintercoat]

Snip

You accuse him of having "no cognitive thinking" and yet you spew all that hate at him without any real justification for why what he's doing is wrong, other than it's wrong because it's wrong.

Tell me, have you actually bothered to look at the positives that can come from piracy? There are plenty of articles from artists etc who think piracy is a good thing, who see it as a form of getting their work out there and enjoyed by more people who then become fans and buy their stuff, see their shows etc. Not to mention the studies which show that people who pirate music actually spend MORE money on music than people who don't pirate. Again, because they have access to more content they wouldn't ordinarily have been exposed to and know what they like. Someone posted a video from an author who found that when he put his book online for free the sales for his other books jumped 300% and he realised that that's how people find their favourite artists, by sharing material with each other, which they then go and buy.

Whatever though. Keep calling him a troll and going on your insane rants. God forbid you actually reexamine your views. I see nothing really wrong with that the OP does, he pirates what he wants and buys what he can.

If an artist wants to release his shit for free, let him. Piss or get off the pot, eh?

You want to speak for the whole world of people that create something that they want to profit off of as if you deserve it for nothing, good for you I guess.

Keep on keepin on dood.

You see nothing wrong with millions of products being dispersed without being paid for? Have fun being blind. (God forbid you ever make something for yourself and want to sell it)

Wow, you're a massive troll aren't you?

So are you actually going to comment on the other points or check out those articles? Or is it just easier to bury your head in the sand and keep repeating "it's wrong because it's wrong" rather than face the possibility it's not as bad as you think?

You don't think it's okay for someone else to have a website and post all of Zero Punctuations videos and make money off of advertising, right?

Of course you don't.

You don't think it's right to piggy back off of others IP to make money for yourself.

You know it's wrong.

People have failed in doing the right thing.

The internet is due for regulation based on the rampant wrong doings of others.

Call me what ever names you want. Disagree with me on every word I have (and will) type. Justify IP theft from here until forever. You haven't made any works that have been pirated that you wish were not stolen from you. Being spoiled by what some call free speech and free information is BS. It's just wanting something for nothing.

Hmm...what's worse, the person who deludes themselves into believing piracy is morally justifiable, or the person who thinks copyrite laws exist to protect the artist?

 

[peruvianskys]

Hmm...what's worse, the person who deludes themselves into believing piracy is morally justifiable, or the person who thinks copyrite laws exist to protect the artist?

Hehe.

You know, this guy is right; a correct understanding of the situation must acknowledge both the harm that piracy causes as well as the absurdity of existing copyright laws. Even if I think there is a clear answer (piracy is morally wrong), you still have to admit that the legal and economic concepts around the issue are pretty murky.

 

[morrowind_lover]

Tell me, have you actually bothered to look at the positives that can come from piracy? There are plenty of articles from artists etc who think piracy is a good thing, who see it as a form of getting their work out there and enjoyed by more people who then become fans and buy their stuff, see their shows etc. Not to mention the studies which show that people who pirate music actually spend MORE money on music than people who don't pirate. Again, because they have access to more content they wouldn't ordinarily have been exposed to and know what they like. Someone posted a video from an author who found that when he put his book online for free the sales for his other books jumped 300% and he realised that that's how people find their favourite artists, by sharing material with each other, which they then go and buy.

There are systems of releasing material in a free manner they are called Open Source and Public Domain. However, in relation to Open Source, the producer relinquishes ownership of the creation as long as they are referenced in subsequent releases. Whilst this is philosophically an interesting idea it is by no means a perfect system. In an Open Source community producers survive on donations meaning that not only must the user like the project enough to download it and use it but they must have incentive to return to the site so that they can donate. About artists who think piracy is a good thing, I believe they are actually claiming that free distribution of selected works is a good tool for generating interest. I'm certain artist don't want fans going out and downloading their entire discography through a piracy site.

 

[Alterego-X]

Hmm...what's worse, the person who deludes themselves into believing piracy is morally justifiable, or the person who thinks copyrite laws exist to protect the artist?

I personally think that it's the people who delude themselves into thinking that piracy is unjustifiable, but continue doing it anyways.

All three sides use a shitload of vague economic assumptions, and questionable moral statements, but at least the first two are sticking to them, and keep on honestly believing that their side is contributing to good.

 

[Zorpheus]

What I don't get about pirates is that they somehow think they are entitled to play the games, not to be denied by things like price. They also believe that somehow these games magically come into existence without any time or money or energy involved by the creators. Either that or they believe this time invested should not be compensated. "How DARE they ask for money for this, it SHOULD BE MINE! I was never going to buy it anyway, 'cause I can't afford it, so you guys lose nothing, but I get your game, the thing you invested time and money in! Just like it should be!"

Let's step back for a second here. You can't afford the game, you say? So why are you entitled to have it? Why does not being able to afford it magically exempt you from the entry fee to experience this work? If you can't afford it, then too bad, you're not entitled to it. The people who pay for it are entitled to it, having compensated the game developer for their efforts and investment. When you pirate something, you are getting a product without the entry fee the publisher/developer decided it was worth. If you GAIN something without paying for it, then they LOSE the money you'd have given them for it normally.

Taking the OP's bus analogy. If you only have $5, and it only gets you 4 stops down, then too bad. You're not entitled to ride the bus. By staying on it without paying for that distance, the bus system loses the money you'd have paid for going further, money it needs to continue paying for the gas and the maintenance necessary to keep the bus running. If everyone used the logic the OP did, and the bus is regularly filled by self-entitled twats, then when it comes time to pull up to the gas pump, where is it getting the money for that, hmmm? Oh no, all the riders of the day used the "You're going there anyway, I should be able to ride for free" logic and now the bus driver can't afford his gas. No more busses for anyone!

Money and sales numbers are the "gas" of game developers. A lot of the both of them allows them to keep going and produce new games. If you can't afford to give them these, tough break. Yes, the publisher and developer never gets your money, so they never see a contribution from you in these things. So then why should you benefit from not being able to help them at all? Why do you feel so entitled to experience these things that you feel they should just give it to you without the price they were asking for it? What makes you so special compared to all the other people who are under that price imposition?

The answer? You're not. Quit pretending that you have entitlement towards playing a company's game. If you can't afford it, you shouldn't get it. Simply put. Play what you've already bought, or play a game that the developers have decided has no entry fee. They're entitled to decide that. You're not.

 

[Alterego-X]

What I don't get about pirates is that they somehow think they are entitled to play the games, not to be denied by things like price. They also believe that somehow these games magically come into existence without any time or money or energy involved by the creators. Either that or they believe this time invested should not be compensated. "How DARE they ask for money for this, it SHOULD BE MINE! I was never going to buy it anyway, 'cause I can't afford it, so you guys lose nothing, but I get your game, the thing you invested time and money in! Just like it should be!"

Don't argue with a fictional opponent called "the pirates". It's called strawmanning.

None of the actual people posting in this thread, made the argument that "everyone is entitled to all media, and we should all get everything for free", just that following copyright laws isn't moral on it's own. Supporting the industry is good, but getting a specific content for free doesn't directly mean a refusal to support the industry.

If everyone would act based on these by pro-piracy morals, that wouldn't hurt the industry, it would just make content more universally available.

Like in your expanded analogy. If everyone would ride the bus for free, that woul ruin public transport. But if everyone would be willing to pay for tickets in general, but willing to take an extra stop in the cases like when they don't happen to have extra money, and the bus happens to be mostly empty, public transport would be a lot more comfortable and user-friendly.

 

[Alterego-X]

Piracy's not stealing, because nothing is taken.

I stopped reading right there, STOP trying to justify it, ITS FUCKING WRONG you know its fucking wrong you know why its fucking wrong so stop trying to fucking justify to the world.

And if you really REALLY believe its NOT wrong.. then you sir are fucking stupid.

How could we know for certain, without trying to justify it, and failing? (Or succeeding?)

Deciding that it's wrong without even thinking about it, is just plain ignorance.

 

[Random Fella]

So many replies to a trolling thread
I mean seriously? Common, you've got to know this is a troll right?
Damn I'm just adding to the replies D:

 

[Alterego-X]

Piracy's not stealing, because nothing is taken.

I stopped reading right there, STOP trying to justify it, ITS FUCKING WRONG you know its fucking wrong you know why its fucking wrong so stop trying to fucking justify to the world.

And if you really REALLY believe its NOT wrong.. then you sir are fucking stupid.

How could we know for certain, without trying to justify it, and failing? (Or succeeding?)

Deciding that it's wrong without even thinking about it, is just plain ignorance.

It is wrong, it should not even be open for debate, same as filming movies in the cinema its wrong, you know why its wrong.

Only bigots and religious fanatics close moral issues with "It's wrong because it's wrong. It shouldn't be up for debate".

Normal people decide their morals on a rational basis. So tell me, why is copyright infringement irrational?

 

[CrazyMedic]

No, piracy is not stealing. This idea has pissed me off for a loooong time, ever since the DVD manufacturers started that fucking stupid "you wouldn't steal a car!" advert.

No, I wouldn't steal a car, because someone is going to notice their car is missing and REPORT IT AS STOLEN!

No, I wouldn't steal a handbag. Handbags, by and large, belong to people who cannot readily afford to replace its contents and would fuck up their lives.

No, I wouldn't steal a movie; it's rather hard to take something out of a store without getting caught.

But Pirating a movie? Downloading a Digital COPY of a film that was made by a company whose annual profits are more than what most people make in a lifetime, which neither destroys nor removes the original version from which the copy was made? I can do that.

Video Piracy is NOT stealing. Video Piracy is copying, and distributing those copies, without express permission of the copyright holder. If I'm supposed to feel bad about breaking the law, you first have to A) prove what I'm doing is wrong, and B) use the right fucking terminology.



Now the people who claim that Piracy is wrong, answer me this:

Think of a game that is coming out in the future that you want to buy. Would you buy it if it cost you:
A) £60,000
B) Nothing.

In theory, we should have 0% answering 'Yes' to A, and 100% answering 'Yes' to B. Here, then, is where Piracy comes in.

Piracy is NOT "I don't want to pay so I'll steal". Piracy for the most part is "I don't think it is worth paying what they ask, so I'll steal."

How many of you who pirate mainstream games would do so if they were £30 new? How about £20? How about £10 and DRM free? What about £15 and all future DLC was free of charge for the rest of time?

That's how Piracy is fought. It's why iTunes and App stores charge about 70p an item. It's fuck-all money, so we don't really mind spending it. Investing 70p on a whim is easy, but investing £70 is not. Hence, the expensive stuff gets pirated.

In order to stop piracy, or at least curb it, you need to strike the balance. Most people who pirate won't do it if you offer them a fair and reasonable alternative. Major companies don't, by and large, do this.

finally someone reasonable I for the most part think most pirates are self entitled tw*ts but I agree with you which is why every developer should have a donate button on the page, like my friend who pirated assassins creed 2, brotherhood, and revelation made sure to buy amount of ubisoft games new(or off steam) up to the amount each game was worth, I almost don't even consider that piracy I think that is more akin to jailbreaking an Iphone, I also would have no problem with piracy if it was something the ARTIST(not publishing company or MPAA) says it is ok to pirate for what ever reason, I am too lazy to pull up examples but it has happened, I think Elvis Costello said something along those lines with a new box set that was coming out.

 

[Random Fella]

So many replies to a trolling thread
I mean seriously? Common, you've got to know this is a troll right?
Damn I'm just adding to the replies D:

Such a ridiculous attitude to take. How is he trolling? How is actually engaging your brain and thinking about the problem trolling? or are you another one of these people who cannot possibly imagine that piracy isn't all bad?

Did you... See what he wrote?
Seriously I can tell one when I see one, the problem is sometimes trolls aren't in your face about it, but do it sneakily and laugh at you respond.
He was comparing piracy to buying a game at a cheaper date, common, how can you even think that's related to piracy?
You sir should learn more about trolls. Of course I can imagine piracy is this bad, I'm not a big game pirate as I mostly play console, but I can understand the damage it has upon small business that release pc generated games especially.

 

[Alterego-X]

He was comparing piracy to buying a game at a cheaper date, common, how can you even think that's related to piracy?

Buying older, cheaper games causes harm to developers, by giving them less profit than if buying the game when it is new. The only difference between it and piracy, is that it is legal.

That argument is a good starting point for how "it means not giving money to publishers" doesn't inherently prove that something is immoral, as long as you are eventually willing to support the industry.

 

[Random Fella]

He was comparing piracy to buying a game at a cheaper date, common, how can you even think that's related to piracy?

Buying older, cheaper games causes harm to developers, by giving them less profit than if buying the game when it is new. The only difference between it and piracy, is that it is legal.

That argument is a good starting point for how "it means not giving money to publishers" doesn't inherently prove that something is immoral, as long as you are eventually willing to support the industry.

It's not piracy it's not like you're spendi...
Nope, nope i'm not going to get trolled today good sir
But I do commend you on your skill, 9 pages of replies is a good troll by my standards.

 

[Alterego-X]

He was comparing piracy to buying a game at a cheaper date, common, how can you even think that's related to piracy?

Buying older, cheaper games causes harm to developers, by giving them less profit than if buying the game when it is new. The only difference between it and piracy, is that it is legal.

That argument is a good starting point for how "it means not giving money to publishers" doesn't inherently prove that something is immoral, as long as you are eventually willing to support the industry.

It's not piracy it's not like you're spendi...
Nope, nope i'm not going to get trolled today good sir
But I do commend you on your skill, 9 pages of replies is a good troll by my standards.

It's plain ignorance to pretend that popular arguments in favor of piracy and/or copyright liberalization don't exist. If you assume that everyone with an opinion radically different from yours is a troll, you might feel comfortable in your knowledge that you are not getting trolled, but you risk that your viewpoint is getting warped.