Piracy

[Adzma]

Wow, that is terrible! Have you ever considered ordering games from an area in the world that can offer them cheaper? Or does shipping run you back up to price? Or I suppose Australias pretty hard on what comes in and out of the country?

And I know it might not seem like a whole lot, but even a few weeks seems kinda harsh, especially if it's a game you've been waiting on!

Could you give me an idea on the price markups on DLC? For reference the recent "Undead" Pack for Red Dead Redemption costs $10 over here in the states.

Oh yeah I import games all the time, more often than buying them instore. In fact this year I've only bought FFXIII and Transformers WFC from within an Australian store. Lots of Aussie gamers do it. We shouldn't have to though.

DLC isn't as bad as full games. The Undead pack for RDR is $15.95 AUD and the Undead Nightmare collection is $29.95 AUD.

EDIT: Whoo 800th post!

 

[Siuss]

'That's US $90 spent on one game. That is more than some people spend on housing in a month.'

/quote]

No, seriously, do you know what you are saying when you say '$90 a month is more than what some people pay for housing?'

I feel like you are baiting me.

I have a few things to say to you.

1. I'm not baiting you.
2. I never said I was wrong about that, it is possible most people just don't try to take advantage of housing assistance.
3. You quite obviously do care about what I have to say, if not you would stop checking back to see what I said to you.

I care about what you say a lot actually.

It saddens me when people feel that they have to rely on assistance for housing. It makes me even more sad when these people have to pay to play video games instead of paying bills like most people.

I'm glad you said you don't pirate. Is that really true?

Funny story, it's for people who need the help to live comfortably. Not only those who need it to live, you get helped out more or less depending on the money you personally make. Oh, and did you go to college? If you did I would bet you had housing assistance.

And yes I don't pirate, anything. The only things I have ever torrented were the wow discs back when I played, and that's because blizzard allows it. It's just the fastest way to get all the patches and expansions onto your computer. And you still had to pay full retail price to activate your account.

And just a little fyi for you, if I pirated why can I be caught playing the same game pretty much every night? And it's from three games ago in the series... I am an honest man, and I work for what I have. I'm a generally peace loving person, but you really are just bringing out the worst in me.

 

[Wintermoot]

I get where your coming from but renting is WORSE than piracy, google the game overthinker and watch his latest video

 

[Siuss]

Wow, that is terrible! Have you ever considered ordering games from an area in the world that can offer them cheaper? Or does shipping run you back up to price? Or I suppose Australias pretty hard on what comes in and out of the country?

And I know it might not seem like a whole lot, but even a few weeks seems kinda harsh, especially if it's a game you've been waiting on!

Could you give me an idea on the price markups on DLC? For reference the recent "Undead" Pack for Red Dead Redemption costs $10 over here in the states.

Oh yeah I import games all the time, more often than buying them instore. In fact this year I've only bought FFXIII and Transformers WFC from within an Australian store. Lots of Aussie gamers do it. We shouldn't have to though.

DLC isn't as bad as full games. The Undead pack for RDR is $15.95 AUD and the Undead Nightmare collection is $29.95 AUD.

EDIT: Whoo 800th post!

That doesn't seem too terrible on the DLC, but it is still like a 30% markup and I just find it stupid that they expect you to sit back and take that.

P.S. Congrats!

 

[Red Scharlach]

He said he rents most of his games, that isn't helping the industry at all.

Actually, renting games helps the industry too. The rental company continues to buy more of the much more expensive rental licenses when more people rent games. Ever wondered why the EULA in a common license tells you that you are not allowed to rent out the game?

 

[tzimize]

Good choice in not doing piracy.
Piracy increases costs of games because fewer people buy them, which results in more piracy.
It's a vicious cycle.

Not true. Lets say nobody pirated. Do you think companies would lower prices if they sold more games because they are just that nice? Please. They sell the games for as much money as they can get away with, usually more.

 

[Red Scharlach]

Not true. Lets say nobody pirated. Do you think companies would lower prices if they sold more games because they are just that nice? Please. They sell the games for as much money as they can get away with, usually more.

But at the same time, more money would flow into the industry which would mean more developers and more games. This in turn would mean more competition which would mean better quality and at the same time more niche games. Simply put: a bigger market.

 

[EeveeElectro]

...where can I find housing for less than 90 bucks a month?

Tell me now, because I need to move out.

...where can I find housing for less than 90 bucks a month?

YES! tell me... so I can afford to buy games again.

...where can I find housing for less than 90 bucks a month?

My question exactly? If such a place exists in this city, I would move without hesitation.

OT: Personally I'd rather see the money go to the industry. If the Dev's don't get their money, they won't be so eager to try and push the medium forward.

I'll continue buying my games the old fashioned way.

Mud huts are apparently very cheap...

OT: Where the hell can I live realistically for £90 a month?

My friend at University says she pays £90 or so a month, and that's split between 5 people I believe. They all get their own rooms and bathrooms, but have to share a kitchen.
When I get everything sorted out with my house, all three of us will be paying £103 each. Hooray for Hull and it's cheapest houses in England.

 

[Nahhnbah]

Fractional Games, the independant developer of Amnesia: the Dark Descent, were concerned at the wide availability of pirate copies of Amnesia. That's a game that costs $20, from a small indie developer aiming to sell 20 or 30,000 copies of their game to stay in business.

Piracy has absolutely nothing to do with the cost of games. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Pirating a small time developer game is pathetic, but what you say is wrong - it is partly to do with price AND availability.

Take for example, a game such as Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee. You can't find that game for rocking horse shit, so the simple solution is to download a pirate copy. The company aren't losing money, the game isn't sold in retailers any more. So, therefore, since the company isn't losing a penny, it's okay to download.

I have a cousin who gets paid £170 a week. Thats nothing. He spends nearly every penny he owns on bills, giving him about £5 a week for luxuries. I bought him a PC so he could play games online and not go insane. He downloads games illegally, then when he has enough money he goes out and buys them if the game was good. It's a fair balance and it means that developers don't miss out.

And people will always pirate, so live with it. There is literally nothing that can be done that will put a stop to it since a lot of people who pirate do so because they know software, programming etc. They'll find a way around it. So, I guess, developers can just make stunning games for cheap and fight piracy that way or give up and admit that not everyone wants to pay for games and live with it.

To be honest, renting doesn'y help the industry at all - the money just goes to Blockbuster or Gamestop or whoever. Buy the game, thats where the industry makes its payola.

It's a matter of convenience. Why scrounge up $60 or so and go through the hassle of tracking down a certain game and wait for it to go on sale when one could simply torrent it overnight while they're sleeping and play it in the morning?

This is also an extremely valid point.

 

[Red Scharlach]

I get where your coming from but renting is WORSE than piracy, google the game overthinker and watch his latest video

Actually, he says the second hand market kills the industry. Assuming you are referring to Episode 41: The Revolution.

 

[Siuss]

'That's US $90 spent on one game. That is more than some people spend on housing in a month.'

/quote]
No, seriously, do you know what you are saying when you say '$90 a month is more than what some people pay for housing?'

I feel like you are baiting me.

I care about what you say a lot actually.

Funny story, it's for people who need the help to live comfortably. Not only those who need it to live, you get helped out more or less depending on the money you personally make. Oh, and did you go to college? If you did I would bet you had housing assistance.
I'm a generally peace loving person, but you really are just bringing out the worst in me.

Been to college, never been on assistance. I can see why people need help to pay the bills tho. I still don't think prices for games are crazy. Some people pay more than $90 a week on booze, especially when they party in college. I am bringing out the worst in you because I challenged your $90 a week for housing thing. Just like many others in this thread have.

Not everyone is accepting assistance for living like you, or your friends, or the people you know are.

After school, you don't get that kind of price.

You did name this thread Piracy, and your first sentence was

'I recently read on the discussion for the new M$ anti-pirate attempt that piracy was only for "poor people".'

Poor people shouldn't spend $90 a week on games. They should buy food instead. Poor people have no right to entertainment that excludes them from paying. Thinking otherwise is just selfish.

I don't want to anger you. But I will keep on responding if you quote me.

Well I'm glad to hear you had parents to pay your way through school, the rest of us need as much help as we can get. I choose not to drive, and I don't indulge in booze. All my excess money goes to rent, then prescriptions, then food, and then gaming.

And just so you know, poor people have just as much of a right to entertainment as you do. I'm sure they're sorry to you that they don't get to have as much disposable income as you obviously do, but that's just the way things are for some people out there. Not everyone gets the opportunity to go to college, because to some it's simply too expensive. Now you're saying that those people who have to work for minimum wage should simply accept no assistance and live their lives doing nothing but struggling to keep their home on their small time job? You sir make me sick.

Oh, and no one said $90 a week, you really should stop putting words in my mouth to make your argument seem stronger, it only shows how weak it really is.

And yes, after school you still can get that price, you see there's this weird thing called the world. Not everything is the same everywhere, things work a certain way here, which apparently they don't work there. Now if you are too ignorant to accept that, please just move on.

 

[Red Scharlach]

Poor people shouldn't spend $90 a week on games. They should buy food instead.

Things are likely different where you are from, but where I am from, social services make an allowance for entertainment in addition to essentials. Basically, at least some entertainment is considered essential. At the least, this shows that some people and authorities have a different opinion than you do. Naturally, it doesn't say you are wrong.

 

[Daniel Laeben-Rosen]

Fractional Games, the independant developer of Amnesia: the Dark Descent, were concerned at the wide availability of pirate copies of Amnesia. That's a game that costs $20, from a small indie developer aiming to sell 20 or 30,000 copies of their game to stay in business.

Piracy has absolutely nothing to do with the cost of games. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

This I agree with completely. If people only pirated the expensive AAA-titles, that'd be one thing. But when some people don't even bother paying for the cheap indie-titles they claim to crave they're really setting the industry back. I've yet to get Amnesia personally because I am infact a chicken when it comes to horror-games.

OT: I don't pirate. It's not some moral high-ground, I just prefer having an actual physical copy of a game when I buy it. Or at the least being able to get at it again whenever I want to, like with Steam or GoG.com. Mostly GoG. I love GoG.com, they're awesome. But that brings me to another point; DRM. Some DRM are simply a pirate's prime excuse and frankly... I don't blame them. Take the disc-version on PC for BioShock or Spore for instance. "Yeah, you payed $50 for this game. Congrats on your newly aquired rental. Be sure to buy the game again if you ever install them more than 3 times."
Yeah. Screw that. When I buy a game I want to actually OWN the game.

That is just one big Fuck-You to the consumer, and sadly validates half the other side of the piracy-argument.

With that said, I still don't support piracy. But I do understand some of it.
But pirating cheap indie-titles and blaming the money is just stupid.

 

[Siuss]

Fractional Games, the independant developer of Amnesia: the Dark Descent, were concerned at the wide availability of pirate copies of Amnesia. That's a game that costs $20, from a small indie developer aiming to sell 20 or 30,000 copies of their game to stay in business.

Piracy has absolutely nothing to do with the cost of games. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

This I agree with completely. If people only pirated the expensive AAA-titles, that'd be one thing. But when some people don't even bother paying for the cheap indie-titles they claim to crave they're really setting the industry back. I've yet to get Amnesia personally because I am infact a chicken when it comes to horror-games.

OT: I don't pirate. It's not some moral high-ground, I just prefer having an actual physical copy of a game when I buy it. Or at the least being able to get at it again whenever I want to, like with Steam or GoG.com. Mostly GoG. I love GoG.com, they're awesome. But that brings me to another point; DRM. Some DRM are simply a pirate's prime excuse and frankly... I don't blame them. Take the disc-version on PC for BioShock or Spore for instance. "Yeah, you payed $50 for this game. Congrats on your newly aquired rental. Be sure to buy the game again if you ever install them more than 3 times."
Yeah. Screw that. When I buy a game I want to actually OWN the game.

That is just one big Fuck-You to the consumer, and sadly validates half the other side of the piracy-argument.

With that said, I still don't support piracy. But I do understand some of it.
But pirating cheap indie-titles and blaming the money is just stupid.

You make some very good points, but in all honesty I think my whole post was to help prove that piracy isn't just for the poor or cheap.

I do like what you said about PC DRM though, and I do understand those frustrations, but at the same time I've never really understood why all PC gamers don't just use steam or downloads (the legal paying kind). Maybe that's just me, or there's some untapped market but yeah.

And I totally agree! I hate people who pirate third party titles, there is simply no excuse.

 

[tzimize]

Not true. Lets say nobody pirated. Do you think companies would lower prices if they sold more games because they are just that nice? Please. They sell the games for as much money as they can get away with, usually more.

But at the same time, more money would flow into the industry which would mean more developers and more games. This in turn would mean more competition which would mean better quality and at the same time more niche games. Simply put: a bigger market.

While I understand the theory behind your thinking I still believe it is wrong/would not work out that way. Take the 8-bit era for example. Games were more expensive then, and there was less/no piracy.

If the industry actually got more money I have no doubt that they would churn out an even bigger number of failed CoD clones and other garbage. Good games are few and far between not because there is not enough money, but because they are hard to make. You need talent. Talent does not magically come into existence with more money. Sure, you can hire more talented people but there are only so many talented people in the world. Adding more money will not up that number.

 

[Wintermoot]

I get where your coming from but renting is WORSE than piracy, google the game overthinker and watch his latest video

Actually, he says the second hand market kills the industry. Assuming you are referring to Episode 41: The Revolution.

yeha I meant that episode but it boils down to the same idea, that any and all money goes to the store

 

[Red Scharlach]

Not true. Lets say nobody pirated. Do you think companies would lower prices if they sold more games because they are just that nice? Please. They sell the games for as much money as they can get away with, usually more.

But at the same time, more money would flow into the industry which would mean more developers and more games. This in turn would mean more competition which would mean better quality and at the same time more niche games. Simply put: a bigger market.

While I understand the theory behind your thinking I still believe it is wrong/would not work out that way. Take the 8-bit era for example. Games were more expensive then, and there was less/no piracy.

If the industry actually got more money I have no doubt that they would churn out an even bigger number of failed CoD clones and other garbage. Good games are few and far between not because there is not enough money, but because they are hard to make. You need talent. Talent does not magically come into existence with more money. Sure, you can hire more talented people but there are only so many talented people in the world. Adding more money will not up that number.

The 8-bit consoles were difficult to pirate but compare the contemporary Commodore 64. Piracy on computers has always been rampant.

I think we can agree that there are a lot more talented people in the world than are currently working in the games industry. Also consider that more money in the industry would imply more people moving in from other creative industries.

More developers intrinsically means more titles that are not sequels. More money means developers can take bigger risks. Obviously, the majority will still make clones but you will still have more unique titles to choose between.

 

[Daniel Laeben-Rosen]

You make some very good points, but in all honesty I think my whole post was to help prove that piracy isn't just for the poor or cheap.

I do like what you said about PC DRM though, and I do understand those frustrations, but at the same time I've never really understood why all PC gamers don't just use steam or downloads (the legal paying kind). Maybe that's just me, or there's some untapped market but yeah.

And I totally agree! I hate people who pirate third party titles, there is simply no excuse.

Well personally my internet has this annoying download-limit at 20gb, counting all streams, updates, uploads(for some reason) and so on.... once it get's met I'm stuck at a snails-pace for the rest of the month.
So if I buy one of the larger download-titles it'll take about 2 weeks to get it down. I know this because I bought Freespace 2 on gog and it took 1½ week to get down the 1.4gb file.

And buying downloads before that limit is met will screw my connection over somewhat fierce. So I prefer discs.

Reasons like that keep some pc-gamers(like me) from buying more on Steam. Not to mention the rampant piracy to keep on track. Some Pc-gamers really are cheap bastards. Pc games have the benifit of dropping in retail-price by about half every 6 months. I picked up Mass Effect 2 this summer for roughly $20. Fully retail.