"Pirating" a game that was never released in your country/language

[Kahunaburger]

Intellectual property is intellectual property. I'm surprised this is such a tricky concept for you.

A strawman is a strawman. I'm surprised that even a picture wasn't enough to clarify this to you.

Maybe I need to explain, before you do the usual forum response of "omg troll". If we were arguing about piracy as a whole, I'd lend what you say to have credence. Otherwise, what you are doing is a picture perfect definition of attacking a strawman.

No, I'm pointing out that basically everyone in this country violates intellectual property on a pretty regular basis, and implying that perhaps some people (particularly on this site, for some reason) respond to software piracy as if this were not the case.

...I don't get why you don't think you're attacking a strawman. It doesn't matter what everyone in this country does (not that it makes it right), we're talking about whether or not in this instance, concerning a regionally distributed (or undistributed, as it were) game, it's justified/legal.

As clever as you might have thought you were being, that logic isn't required in this thread.

You still appear to be missing the point. And the irony of misinterpreting someone else's argument to accuse them of strawmanning.

 

[Da Orky Man]

For fuck's sake.
Pirating is stealing. There's no grey area, excuses or whatever else. You took something you should have paid for in the most convoluted way possible, with whatever excuses as 'I wouldn't have paid for it anyway' and 'It's not stealing because it's not a physical item', without paying.

The bottom line is you stole something. What part of this confuses you?

Dude, piracy is copyright infringement, not stealing. At least get your definitions right.

Making a deliberate effort to acquire for free something you should be paying for sounds like stealing to me.

Well, it isn't. Stealing is 'The deliberate act of taking another person's possesions without their permission'. Since piracy includes no taking of possesions, but rather download a file that you aren't allowed to under copyright law, it is therefore copyright infringement.

 

[CrystalShadow]

How about games that have never been released at all? Anywhere?

For me is still very easy to answer, same as a released game pirating.

If the game is done by a big company then it's copyrighted before launch, this is just a regular pirate buisness and happens here and there (Gears of War 3, Crysis 2, Ghostbusters, starfox 2). From a legal PoV it's irrelevant if it was released or not, from a moral one you are still taking a copy of the work of another person, a work you consider valuable and they too, without giving a dime, so for me it's the same.

And and the translation point is moot, to apply the english patch you don't require the game to be pirated, you just require the game to be a ROM in your computer.

Edit: Anyway, OP probably decided just to pirate the game, that's what i would have done when i was the average age demographics of this forum, so... this thread is kinda pointless now

Yes, but a ROM image is illegal under several variations of copyright law.

The argument that it's OK if you own the actual game is actually not true in most cases.

(It's copyright law, after all. This implies you shouldn't have extra copies)

As to unreleased games, Star Fox 2 is an unusual example because it was never released at all. (The version floating around the internet was released 4-5 years at least after the game would've been released if it had been.)

Getting a pre-release build of something that did end up being sold is a different question. (For instance Crysis 2 and Gears of war 3 did end up being released.)

Still, the legal answer to this is not that complicated.

I guess my problem is I don't agree with the logic behind the modern idea of copyright. (IE, 'intellectual property'.)

But whatever. Disagreeing with the ideals that inform our laws doesn't help much.
You'd be able to argue that point if the laws were created in a politically biased manner that is vastly out of line with what the general public thinks is right.
But that's probably not the case. (If nothing else, due to the effects of decades or even centuries of propaganda.)

 

[Nu-Hir]

I love the "Piracy is stealing because it deprives people (developers/publishers) of money!" You know what, so does heading down to your local GameStop and buying used, but people don't equate that to stealing. "But that's different, you paid GameStop for the game!" Yes, but I also paid my ISP for my bandwidth, paid a computer retailer for my HDD, possibly even paid that same retailer for optical media to burn it to a CD/DVD/BD.

 

[ElPatron]

For fuck's sake.
Pirating is stealing. There's no grey area, excuses or whatever else. You took something you should have paid for in the most convoluted way possible, with whatever excuses as 'I wouldn't have paid for it anyway' and 'It's not stealing because it's not a physical item', without paying.

The bottom line is you stole something. What part of this confuses you?

How do you steal something not for sale?

 

[Saulkar]

It is completely legally wrong!
But morally it is up to your whether it was right or wrong.

 

[Legion IV]

Hows this still going on. Its pirating. Cant you at least Import the game? like jesus getting games now from other countries are so easy. I've been importing since like 99. It just surprises me how your preaching your a huge fan of the game and you wont even just import then pirate it?

You get the actual game then go pirate it, its justified then because you buoght the game you own the game but now your just gonna play the patch.

 

[Mr. Eff_v1legacy]

I see absolutely no problem with it. In fact, it may even HELP the developers in the long run by giving exposure to their game.

 

[Tanakh]

Yes, but a ROM image is illegal under several variations of copyright law.

The argument that it's OK if you own the actual game is actually not true in most cases.

(It's copyright law, after all. This implies you shouldn't have extra copies)

As to unreleased games, Star Fox 2 is an unusual example because it was never released at all. (The version floating around the internet was released 4-5 years at least after the game would've been released if it had been.)

Getting a pre-release build of something that did end up being sold is a different question. (For instance Crysis 2 and Gears of war 3 did end up being released.)

Still, the legal answer to this is not that complicated.

I guess my problem is I don't agree with the logic behind the modern idea of copyright. (IE, 'intellectual property'.)

But whatever. Disagreeing with the ideals that inform our laws doesn't help much.
You'd be able to argue that point if the laws were created in a politically biased manner that is vastly out of line with what the general public thinks is right.
But that's probably not the case. (If nothing else, due to the effects of decades or even centuries of propaganda.)

Assuming you are in the US, that is not clear. AFAIK the only jurisprudence on the issue relates of cases of companies against companies, like the Atari v. JS&A, that resambles cases like Nintendo of America v. Dragon Pacific International much more than users creating ROM images on computers for personal use. In EU i think it would be quite clear that is legal to make ROMs, and in the rest of the world i would also think it is legal.

And current copyright is indded BS, if anything i would argue that it was created to mantain the status quo as most of the law; but that doesn't mean i think is right to pirate the intellectual creation of others giving them nothing in return and going against both the law and the owner's wishes. I can see the difference between Starfox 2 and Crysis 2, however I don't think it makes a deffinitive difference in the ethics or legal issues of pirating it.

How do you steal something not for sale?

Not even hard to answer, off the top of my head: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_theft

I love the "Piracy is stealing because it deprives people (developers/publishers) of money!" You know what, so does heading down to your local GameStop and buying used, but people don't equate that to stealing. "But that's different, you paid GameStop for the game!" Yes, but I also paid my ISP for my bandwidth, paid a computer retailer for my HDD, possibly even paid that same retailer for optical media to burn it to a CD/DVD/BD.

Well, TBH i have never bought a used game, been playing since 1988. I have pirated, yeha, but for some reason won't buy pirate copies or used games; my twisted morals say it's ok to steal from duchebag developers, but it's not ok to pay a filthy middleman to cheat on such devs.

And if developers are people, they do equate that to stealing. Has been a huge issue around lately, devs saying that used copies are the same as pirating, i don't mind them saying so because for them they indeed are the same.

it's STILL the only way to play the best Secret of Mana game -.-

That, or buy it. SNES game aren't region locked either, so it should work with your regular SNES.

 

[Lunar Templar]

legally, it's still wrong

but morally, no, if its not been, nore going to be released in yours (or ours rather) country in the foreseeable future, go for it, have fun, hell, it's STILL the only way to play the best Secret of Mana game -.-

but should it come state side, you should probably buy it

 

[Vigormortis]

and in what way ordering from japan is a problem today? just buy it, and the ROM it.

Exactly. In todays world, you can easily buy the game from some retailer in Japan, ship it to your home, and then make or get the ROM.

I do this often with my own games. (not necessarily from Japan) I'll buy a copy of a game, then create a crack/ROM/etc as a back up. Just in case.

And, unless the law has changed, you are legally allowed to do this. So long as you aren't selling copies (or giving out, depending on your view) of the back-up.

The only time I'll ever download a ROM or crack for a game that I don't already own is for a game I literally can not get by any other means. Usually in the case of a game that's no longer available, is too old to find a working copy, or is made free. Take MechCommander 2 and Netstorm, for examples.

 

[coolbeans21]

I love the "Piracy is stealing because it deprives people (developers/publishers) of money!" You know what, so does heading down to your local GameStop and buying used, but people don't equate that to stealing. "But that's different, you paid GameStop for the game!" Yes, but I also paid my ISP for my bandwidth, paid a computer retailer for my HDD, possibly even paid that same retailer for optical media to burn it to a CD/DVD/BD.

So used games exist, publishers lose money through this venue, its legal and it sucks that the industry suffers because of it.

However the argument that because used games exist, its ok to suck more money out of the industry by pirating them is bollocks.

You paid your ISP for bandwidth to use in a legal manner, ditto with the computer retailer

You could argue that reselling whilst bad for the games industry, is good for the economy in general as cash is circulating.

Pirating a game doesn't even have that benefit.

 

[Vigormortis]

How do you steal something not for sale?

The ambiguous nature of software piracy as theft or copyright infringement aside, what you're saying doesn't make sense.

The game is for sale. Just not in the OPs region. So pirating it would be like saying, "They only sell this particular fruit in this country? Well I want it, so it's okay for me to steal it since they aren't selling it in my area." It's just....it doesn't make sense.

Now, you're argument might have held weight in the early 90's, pre-mass-internet availability. But now? Sorry, but no. He can easily buy the game from an online retailer and have it imported. It's really not THAT hard.

If the OP still doesn't want to pay for it, then we're back to the classic 'entitlement' nature of today wherein he wants something, feels he's entitled to it, and therefore thinks he need not pay for it.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Yes, but a ROM image is illegal under several variations of copyright law.

The argument that it's OK if you own the actual game is actually not true in most cases.

(It's copyright law, after all. This implies you shouldn't have extra copies)

As to unreleased games, Star Fox 2 is an unusual example because it was never released at all. (The version floating around the internet was released 4-5 years at least after the game would've been released if it had been.)

Getting a pre-release build of something that did end up being sold is a different question. (For instance Crysis 2 and Gears of war 3 did end up being released.)

Still, the legal answer to this is not that complicated.

I guess my problem is I don't agree with the logic behind the modern idea of copyright. (IE, 'intellectual property'.)

But whatever. Disagreeing with the ideals that inform our laws doesn't help much.
You'd be able to argue that point if the laws were created in a politically biased manner that is vastly out of line with what the general public thinks is right.
But that's probably not the case. (If nothing else, due to the effects of decades or even centuries of propaganda.)

Assuming you are in the US, that is not clear. AFAIK the only jurisprudence on the issue relates of cases of companies against companies, like the Atari v. JS&A, that resambles cases like Nintendo of America v. Dragon Pacific International much more than users creating ROM images on computers for personal use. In EU i think it would be quite clear that is legal to make ROMs, and in the rest of the world i would also think it is legal.

And current copyright is indded BS, if anything i would argue that it was created to mantain the status quo as most of the law; but that doesn't mean i think is right to pirate the intellectual creation of others giving them nothing in return and going against both the law and the owner's wishes. I can see the difference between Starfox 2 and Crysis 2, however I don't think it makes a deffinitive difference in the ethics or legal issues of pirating it.

Almost right. But there's a technical hitch in the form of the DMCA, and several similar laws.

Ironically, it means that while you may be able to argue that owning a ROM image of something is legal, in general the tools that would allow you to create one frequently are not.

For instance, my DVD collection may mean I can legally copy the DVD's to my computer, since that's actually more convenient.

But the software that would allow me to do so is illegal, because in most cases it only works because it can circumvent the copy protection.

So, the tools to make copies of what you already own are illegal... Downloading an image someone else created is illegal (not your copy...)...

And, in some cases, the tools you'd use to play this copy are illegal too. (For instance, the R4 cartridge for the DS, which allows you to play ROM images or homebrew software on an actual DS was ruled illegal in the UK, despite the fact that it has several potential uses which are entirely legal...)

Sometimes this is just really confusing.

 

[ElPatron]

Okay, finally someone explained me if those "tools" used in ROMs are legal or not.

I think there is nothing else to do here.

The game is for sale. Just not in the OPs region. So pirating it would be like saying, "They only sell this particular fruit in this country? Well I want it, so it's okay for me to steal it since they aren't selling it in my area." It's just....it doesn't make sense.

I like how people use those analogies. Have you considered that you can pick up what's left of the fruit after someone ate it and create conditions in your garden to replicate the tree that spawned that fruit?

It conflicts with your analogy because there is no patent laws for the genetic coding of a specific fruit that allows you to replicate as many times you want it and give it away for free.

In modern agriculture a lot of trees are effectively "clones" of each other since they were not created by sexual reproduction, process that is very simple and does not destroy the original tree.

At that point people are replicating the fruit and giving it away like software. So at best you gave the OP a justification to take the fruit (a copy someone uploaded and cracked) and share it, not a deterrent.

 

[coolbeans21]

The game is for sale. Just not in the OPs region. So pirating it would be like saying, "They only sell this particular fruit in this country? Well I want it, so it's okay for me to steal it since they aren't selling it in my area." It's just....it doesn't make sense.

I like how people use those analogies. Have you considered that you can pick up what's left of the fruit after someone ate it and create conditions in your garden to replicate the tree that spawned that fruit?

It conflicts with your analogy because there is no patent laws for the genetic coding of a specific fruit that allows you to replicate as many times you want it and give it away for free.

In modern agriculture a lot of trees are effectively "clones" of each other since they were not created by sexual reproduction, process that is very simple and does not destroy the original tree.

At that point people are replicating the fruit and giving it away like software. So at best you gave the OP a justification to take the fruit (a copy someone uploaded and cracked) and share it, not a deterrent.

But theres no law against seeding and selling fruit

There is against software piracy, if OP want's the game from the series he loves then why not import it or order it off the net, you know support those devs that provide the game series he loves.

 

[ElPatron]

But theres no law against seeding and selling fruit

That's why the analogy fails.

Also, we have already established that acquiring the legal game won't hold any water, as he will have to use illegal means to play it in English.

 

[gigastar]

I would hold no problems against it, except if you didnt actually buy the game if it was ever localised in your language, then i would have a problem with it.

 

[coolbeans21]

But theres no law against seeding and selling fruit

That's why the analogy fails.

Also, we have already established that acquiring the legal game won't hold any water, as he will have to use illegal means to play it in English.

Sorry i didnt really read your post, I didnt realise you were just attacking the analogy, thought you were coming out in support of piracy, been a long day

 

[Chanel Tompkins]

Legally, of course you're stealing. It doesn't matter if you're stealing from a company in America or one in Japan, theft is theft.
Morally, it sounds like you're just fishing for support, and are going to do it whether or not the internet gives you its approval, so go the hell ahead.