Police shoot an "armed" middle school student

Recommended Videos

Lucane

New member
Mar 24, 2008
1,491
0
0
manic_depressive13 said:
"Why was so much excess force used on a minor?" he asked. "Three shots. Why not one that would bring him down?"

He has a point there. This story is pretty fucked. Yes, the police had reason to feel threatened, but he was just a kid. He obviously snapped over something but he didn't deserve to die. Why did they shoot him three times? Why won't they release what the kid said before he died? Do we have anything other than their word that the gun "closely resembled the real thing"? It just kind of stinks.

Edit: I'm editting since I can't be bothered replying to everyone who quoted me. Okay, you've convinced be. Shooting to kill is an absolutely legitimate way of dealing with a child. Please stop quoting me now, I don't care that much.
Well it was 3 shots between two police officers so it'd have be once each with one of them taking a second shot likely after the other one fired but since only two shots hit maybe the 3rd was an attempted miss fire to not hit the boy again (which shows restraint)unless of course a prior shot was the miss but it isn't like it's one person shooting 3 times into a child.

Plus it was during the normal hours of a school day,(If the gun had been loaded{something you can't see from a distance or up close unless it's a revolver} & real) the child could of started shooting into any random direction which could easily fly through a wall(s) and hit one or even several students and or teacher(s) in the nearby classes so it shouldn't really be considered just self concern on the cops.
 

Tsaba

reconnoiter
Oct 6, 2009
1,435
0
0
manic_depressive13 said:
"Why was so much excess force used on a minor?" he asked. "Three shots. Why not one that would bring him down?"
Why three shot's you ask?

"Two officers fired three shots, hitting Gonzalez at least twice, police said."
-2 Police officers shot a total of 3 rounds
-Individual was shot at least twice
-Means one officer missed and probably shot again

They where most likely using a handgun which has a 9mm round. A 9mm is a high velocity round and has a max effective range on a point target of 50 meters (meaning hitting what your aiming at effectively), so it's not very accurate unless you right on top of what you are aiming at.

OT: with this so soon after Virginia tech the people there are being ridiculous, kid brought a gun to school and was given a chance to surrender. I feel nothing for him or his family.
 

madwarper

New member
Mar 17, 2011
1,841
0
0
Numberatu said:
madwarper said:
SirBryghtside said:
Tanis said:
Cops did the right thing, kid got what he deserved.
End of story.
Is that misconstruing your point or do you actually believe that a kid waving a BB gun around deserves to be killed?
Let me ask you; Are you really saying that the cops should have been more concerned about the caliber of the weapon being pointed at them than the fact that there was a weapon being pointed at them?

Tell me you're joking, please.
I'm not.
Just read what he said.
I did. What makes you think otherwise?
No he didn't. He's saying no-one deserves to die because they waved a BB gun. The important word there is DESERVED. Entirely tangential to the actual story, because hey, someone getting killed because of a misunderstanding or emotions boiling over, or just being stupid, is still never a good thing.
No. He's trying to imply the caliber of the weapon is relevant, that the fact that this was a BB gun, an air gun, or whatever takes precedence over the fact that the person is waving said weapon around in a threatening manner.

The caliber of said weapon can only be safely determined, and thus is only relevant, AFTER the threat has been removed.
 

Supah

New member
Oct 22, 2011
77
0
0
Ever heard of suicide by cop? That's what it sounds like to me... He was given a chance to lower the gun and antagonized them instead
 

godofallu

New member
Jun 8, 2010
1,660
0
0
15 is old enough to know better.

In my opinion the guy deserved to die, he had a gun pointed at a cop and punched a random person for no reason. We're better off without him.
 

Risingblade

New member
Mar 15, 2010
2,892
0
0
The-Epicly-Named-Man said:
Literally two pages of people defending the police's right to shoot to kill. Great response from everyone, I'm just glad that I don't live in a place where this sort of sh*t's legal.
Be very glad of that, you must live in an area with a low violent crime rate unlike here in the states.
 

Kopikatsu

New member
May 27, 2010
4,924
0
0
Numberatu said:
madwarper said:
SirBryghtside said:
Tanis said:
Cops did the right thing, kid got what he deserved.
End of story.
Is that misconstruing your point or do you actually believe that a kid waving a BB gun around deserves to be killed?
Let me ask you; Are you really saying that the cops should have been more concerned about the caliber of the weapon being pointed at them than the fact that there was a weapon being pointed at them?
Tell me you're joking, please. Just read what he said. No he didn't. He's saying no-one deserves to die because they waved a BB gun. The important word there is DESERVED. Entirely tangential to the actual story, because hey, someone getting killed because of a misunderstanding or emotions boiling over, or just being stupid, is still never a good thing
The cops aren't psychic. They didn't know that it was a BB gun made to look like a real gun that the kid had filed the orange safety tip off of.

Did the kid deserve to die because he waved a BB gun around? No.

Did he deserve to die because he was waving around a fake gun intentionally made to look like a real gun (See again: The safety tip being filed off) and refused to drop it when ordered by armed police officers? Most definitely.
 

Auron225

New member
Oct 26, 2009
1,789
0
0
It is a tragedy, but if I met the police officers, I wouldn't call them monsters. Well, obviously if they knew it was a pellet gun I would, but if it looked like the real thing and he wouldnt stop pointing it at them... I don't know what this kid was expecting to happen. I really don't.
 

DevilWithaHalo

New member
Mar 22, 2011
625
0
0
I must be psychic, because when I read this title, I immediately thought to myself; "failure to comply with police commands." In ever single story I've read regarding these instances, that has always been the case. I would love to read something new.
 

Makon

New member
Jul 9, 2008
171
0
0
1) Kid caused a situation that warranted police response.

2) Kid brandishes a pellet gun that, in some cases, can be indistinguishable from the real counterpart.

3) Police tell the kid to drop what they perceive as a live firearm, multiple times, to which he ignores them.

4) Kid starts aiming perceived weapon at armed officers, police respond to perceived threat by eliminating the threat by three (likely) 9mm rounds to center-mass.

Barring any revelatory evidence, the police took the best course of action that the situation allowed. They followed their training which instructed them to preserve innocent life to the best of their abilities by eliminating a threat, to which they did. I would say they should be proud of themselves for attempting to avert a possible crisis and/or massacre, but the revelation to them that it wasn't a live weapon that the kid had, but a pellet gun will be exceptionally hard on them. Now they have to live with not only the realization that they killed a minor, but that the weapon they thought he had wasn't even a real weapon at all, a self-inflicting punishment I wouldn't wish upon them.

Now, a word regarding other commenter theories...

1) "They should have talked him down / shot to injure him!". Sorry, but Hollywood police tactics don't work in the real world. Negotiating isn't always going to get the suspect to lower their weapon, not everyone is Samuel Jackson (Film: The Negotiator) or Commander Shepard (Game: Mass Effect).

Police are trained to fire center-mass for two main reasons: 1 - the torso is the largest and thickest portion of the human body. Not only does that make aiming at it easier, it also lessens the chance of a bullet passing through the body and striking someone behind him. 2 - There are many arteries and vital places in your arms and legs that, if severed or wounded, can cause an individual to bleed-out in mere moments, all the while they are suffering excruciating pain and might still be capable of discharging their weapon at either the police or innocents.

2) "They should have used tazers or rubber bullets!". Tazers and rubber-rounds are classified as 'Less Than Lethal'. Want to know why? Because they don't have the same effectiveness on impact that a lethal response has. Just because a rubber round knocks you on your butt, at best, doesn't mean that your finger that is on the trigger won't be able to squeeze and injure/kill someone. Tazers also cause muscle contractions by the electrical current, making everything (fingers included) tighten. Thus, if your finger is on the trigger, your weapon will discharge.

2-b) "They should have used rubber rounds on his head to incapacitate / on his arm to disarm him!". Again, sorry, but Hollywood tactics don't work here. The body perceives pain in two different ways generally. 1 - Injuries to the extremities (head included) can cause muscle contractions, resulting in the suspect squeezing the trigger. This is on top of the fact that it isn't nearly as easy to dislodge a weapon from a suspects grasp as movies show it. 2 - Penetrating wounds (such as a knife or gunshot wound) to the torso causes the body to go into a 'crisis mode' where it immediately rushes all control and blood flow to the torso, trying to protect vital organs. This causes muscles and extremities to lose control and go limp, reducing the chance of the suspect discharging his weapon.

3) "Why did they fire more than once?! Overkill!". When police respond to dangerous situation, one where innocents or themselves could be injured or killed by the suspect, they do not mess around. When a situation reaches a point that it warrants an armed response by the police, if they are provoked, they are no longer trying to 'disarm the threat', but to eliminate it by any means necessary to protect innocent lives. One gunshot is not a guaranteed kill, if the bullet even strikes the target. Adrenaline, certain drugs, or a combination of both can make some individuals nearly disregard center-mass 9mm handgun rounds, so one shot sometimes will not cut it. Police are trained to fire until the threat is eliminated, so three rounds isn't overkill at all. There is also the factor that, likely, one officer wasn't the only shooter.

4) "They should have waited until he actually fired before shooting him!". I'm sorry, but if you actually believe this, you're an idiot. So we should wait until he fires at either an officer or an innocent, very likely killing them in the process, before police attempt to diffuse the situation? I'd ask you to imagine a situation where someone you love dearly, be they your wife, closest friend, son or whatever, is taken hostage by your neighbor gone nuts. By that train of thought, even if officers had a clean shot that could diffuse the situation with the subject's death, they should wait until your loved one has a bullet to their brain before they respond. No. The police motto of 'To Protect and Serve' doesn't do the dead any justice, since the innocent person that got shot because they needed justification in order to respond doesn't need any protecting anymore.

5) "Stupid pigs, always lovin the chance to cap off people. Thugs in uniform!". In response to this, I'd ask you to read this article below.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/05/justice/utah-officers-shot/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

Yes, some cops are bad apples and give the rest of them bad names. There are also a lot of other officers out there who firmly believe in 'To Protect and Serve' and will try as hard as they can to do their duties. Unfortunately, society has decided that the instant we see a news story about a single bad cop at the entire other end of the country, we need to paint every cop as a crook. Many of them are just doing their jobs, while some others truly take the duties and motif of their office as their life code. It is only tragic that a few bad seeds can destroy the public image that the better of them deserve.
 

NiPah

New member
May 8, 2009
1,084
0
0
Cazza said:
"closely resembled the real thing." How far away was the cop. Well far enough to believe it was a real gun. Cops don't just shoot people with pellet guns. If you had a gun pointed at you and you had a gun. I beat your going to shoot them.


You point that at a cop you're going to get shot, especially when you're in a school setting.
 

emeraldrafael

New member
Jul 17, 2010
8,585
0
0
I just dont have sympathy for these incidents, mostly cause it seems to me to be common sense that you dont point anything that can be suspected of being a weapon (particularly a ranged weapon) at a police officer.

Kids, dont be stupid, or you're just gonna be thinned from the herd.
 

triggrhappy94

New member
Apr 24, 2010
3,373
0
0
Redlin5 said:
Incidents like these always make me feel angry when people campaign against tasers.
I'm not a huge taser/pepper spray fan, but this is the perfect example of their purpose. Things like tasers are ment to give the police an alternative to shooting people (not to be used as an alternative to more passive forms of crowd control, but that's another arguement for a different time).

I've seen allegded pictures of the pellet gun and it looks pretty real. Not sure if it was a real picture, though.

I remember earlier this year, I was sitting in homeroom (advo) when the principal was going around and giving a speech to every class. Part of his speech was how if the police are called because you have what looks like a weapon, then they'll give you a warning then shoot to kill. This is what happens with the "No Tolerance" Policy, which was put in place after Columbine.
 

jirenicus

Meatbag
Oct 12, 2010
7
0
0
ThreeWords said:
Zack Alklazaris said:
I'm also wondering if this was a suicide by cop.
Jaime's best friend, 16-year-old Star Rodriguez, said her favorite memory was when Jaime came to her party Dec. 29 and they danced and sang together.

"He was like a brother to me," she said.
There's your answer: dude thought he was in there with a close friend, danced with her on New Years, then got told he was 'like a brother'

I think I know who's fault this is.
Am I failing to detect sarcasm here? Or do you really think that it's her "fault"?

I wouldn't want to live in a world where girls have to start a relationship with anybody who shows interest, just in case they do something as stupid as this when rejected.

If you are being sarcastic, then that's okay.
 

BlumiereBleck

New member
Dec 11, 2008
5,401
0
0
Pimppeter2 said:
I don't get why they're mad that they shot more than one bullet.

I don't think the average eight grader could survive a gunshot period. How does one shoot "just to bring them down"? I get that there are non-lethal places to shoot someone, but does that work for a child too?

Or did the mother expect him to go all Rambo and rip up his gymshirt to tie around the wound while making a daring escape?
I missed you....




OT He had something that resembled a gun, it is his own fault. I?m just waiting for when they blame this on video games.
 

jirenicus

Meatbag
Oct 12, 2010
7
0
0
I don't think a taser or pepper spray would have helped here. I am of course no expert, but isn't it possible that either of those methods could have agitated and enraged the guy, leading to him firing his weapon? (Let's not forget that the police officers had no reason to believe the gun wasn't real).

Their job was to ensure the safety of the public and the only way to really do that was with lethal force. A single bullet may not be instantly incapacitating, hence multiple shots being fired. From the article, I gather that the police officers gave fair warning.
 

kouriichi

New member
Sep 5, 2010
2,414
0
0
Arnt cops only supposed to return fire if they themselves are fired on?

And how did they get into this position anyway? Just run out in the open and yell "Put your gun down"? I can see a dozen ways they could have avoided this. Just waiting behind a wall telling him to put the gun down for an hour would have been a better solution.

But no, "Lets shoot him 3 times in the chest when his gun may not be real, may not be loaded, and he hasn't done anything with it yet."

Dont get me wrong, im all for police protecting themselves. But if they purposely put themselves in front of a person with a gun, they need to be berated.
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
Kenbo Slice said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/police-kill-armed-8thgrad_n_1183517.html?icid=maing-grid7|aim|dl1|sec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D124955

I put quotations on the word armed because the kid only had a pellet gun.

What are your guys's take on this?

I think it's excessive, I understand the cops were just doing their jobs but Jesus there had to have been another way.
"Police shot and killed an eighth-grader in the hallway of his middle school Wednesday after the boy brandished what looked like a handgun and pointed it at officers. It turned out to be a pellet gun that closely resembled the real thing."

First paragraph clears that up.

"Three shots."

Extraordinary restraint considering the calibre of guns they use the 'one-shot-stop' probability is quite low, litely three shots was precisely what was needed to stop him. Remember pistol bullets are not like being hit with a freight train, they cut a narrow hole that may or may not stop them, standard military and police training with pistol defensive shooting is with a pistol to shoot and keep shooting into the centre mass till they go down.

How can the police possible tell in the LITERAL SPLIT SECOND that it is just a pellet gun which is unlikely to kill (though it certainly could rupture your eyeball).

Pellet gun calibre is commonly 0.177-inch barrel. A common pistol calibre is 0.22 inch wide barrel (.22LR is most common calibre used in criminal (non military) shootings). Can you tell the difference between a 0.22-inch and 0.177 inch wide black steel hole? Can ANYONE? When literally milliseconds count?

I'll tell you what this is, this is "suicide by cop". Seen a thousands times before, people deliberately threaten the police because they have death wish but don't actually want to directly inflict harm to themselves. Either that or this lad is a monumental idiot who thought pulling (what is indistinguishable from) a pistol would lead to anything other than getting shot or arrested.

"but Jesus there had to have been another way."

Nope. Hesitation is not something you can ask cops to do when they are literally microseconds away from instant death from being shot through the head.

Case closed.
 

SilentCom

New member
Mar 14, 2011
2,417
0
0
Kenbo Slice said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/police-kill-armed-8thgrad_n_1183517.html?icid=maing-grid7|aim|dl1|sec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D124955

I put quotations on the word armed because the kid only had a pellet gun.

What are your guys's take on this?

I think it's excessive, I understand the cops were just doing their jobs but Jesus there had to have been another way.
It's not excessive the suspect is brandishing a firearm and refuses to put it down or tell the police its a pellet gun. I've heard people argue that the police should have used a taser or pepper spray. The problem is that pepper spray would not have been practical because it would require a police officer to walk up in the kid's face to spray him. Obviously, trying to walk up and spray a guy with a gun is a bad idea. Also, with a taser, you have only one shot and its does not instantly take down the target. Muscle contractions from the taser could cause the suspect to discharge his weapon and potentially kill the officers and/or innocent bystanders.

Ultimately it was unfortunate and very stupid of the kid to have done what he did.