[POLITICS] Brexit deadline

Silvanus

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TheIronRuler said:
Democracy means you as a political movement can lose the vote sometimes. Accepting a loss is as important as accepting a political victory in preserving the integrity of the political system. Moving forward as a nation is more important for the survival of the UK, instead of squabbling over an issue that was already decided the morning after the vote.
Again: we have multiple proven breaches of electoral law. Is it respecting the integrity of the political system to ignore electoral fraud, and go ahead with the outcome of any referenda that were decided by such dubious means?

And, again: the Leave campaign campaigned on the basis of getting a deal. Leaving without one has never been expressed as the will of the people, and it is quite explicitly not the will of the people. It is deeply unpopular.

You cannot pursue a policy that was not voted on, and simultaneously call it the result of democratic expression. To do so would be ludicrous.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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oh dear, more tomfuckery has been unveiled


A series of hugely influential Facebook advertising campaigns that appear to be separate grassroots movements for a no-deal Brexit are secretly overseen by employees of Sir Lynton Crosby?s lobbying company and a former adviser to Boris Johnson, documents seen by the Guardian reveal.

The mysterious groups, which have names such as Mainstream Network and Britain?s Future, appear to be run independently by members of the public and give no hint that they are connected. But in reality they share an administrator who works for Crosby?s CTF Partners and have spent as much as 1m GBP promoting sophisticated targeted adverts aimed at heaping pressure on individual MPs to vote for a hard Brexit.

Repeated questions have been raised about who is backing at least a dozen high-spending groups that have flooded MPs? inboxes with calls to reject Theresa May?s deal, but until now they were thought to be independent entities.

But according to the documents, almost all the major pro-Brexit Facebook ?grassroots? advertising campaigns in the UK share the same page admins or advertisers. These individuals include employees of CTF Partners and the political director of Boris Johnson?s campaigns to be mayor of London, who has worked closely with Crosby in the past.

Their collective Facebook expenditure swamps the amount spent in the last six months by all the UK?s major political parties and the UK government combined. They have paid for thousands of different targeted Facebook ads encouraging members of the public to write to their local MPs and call for the toughest possible exit from the EU, creating the impression of organic public opposition to Theresa May?s deal.

Crosby?s secretive lobbying company CTF Partners has come under increasing scrutiny in recent months. Leaked documents have revealed how it boasts of its ability to run fake online grassroots campaigns that encourage users to join an online community and then be ?mobilised to communicate directly with key decision-makers?, whether to delegitimise the Qatari government or convince people that burning coal is good.

The Australian political strategist has also been repeatedly linked to a potential Conservative leadership campaign by Johnson, having been lined up to run the former foreign secretary?s abortive 2016 bid for the same position. CTF Partners gave Johnson an interest-free loan of 23,000 GBP ? subsequently repaid ? in January, while the company already employs arch-Brexiter former Tory MP Stewart Jackson in an advisory role and paid for ex-Brexit secretary David Davis to go on trips.

Mainstream Network attracted attention last year when it was exposed for spending at least 250,000 GBP to reach more than 10 million voters with adverts urging voters to email their local MP and urging them to ?chuck Chequers?, alongside articles criticising George Soros?s involvement in the remain campaign. After it attracted attention it was abruptly shut down.

Although Facebook has substantially increased the level of transparency around political advertising in recent months, all that is required to run such a campaign is a publicly-named individual who is registered to a UK postal address or contact details for a public organisation. There is no true disclosure around a campaign?s financial backers and no UK law requiring financial transparency outside an election period.

After the closure of the Mainstream Network site, similar adverts began appearing on a Facebook page named Britain?s Future, whose public frontman is a former Two Pints Of Lager And A Packet Of Crisps scriptwriter named Tim Dawson who later became a Conservative council candidate.

The group hit the headlines last month when it was revealed it was the biggest single UK political advertiser on Facebook, spending 422,000 GPB on adverts campaigning for a hard Brexit despite never declaring its financial backers.

According to the documents seen by the Guardian, individuals with the ability to place adverts on both the Mainstream Network and Britain?s Future page include Reuben Solomon, whom multiple sources identified as an employee of Crosby?s CTF Partners.

He did not respond to a request for comment but a relative, who previously lived with him at an address in north London, confirmed to the Guardian that Solomon worked for Crosby.

According to the documents, other individuals with oversight of the Mainstream Network Facebook page include Charles Carroll and Alex Crowley.

Carroll, who deleted his LinkedIn profile after the Guardian began to seek comment for this article, also works for Crosby?s CTF Partners, according to a cached version of the page.

Crowley was employed by Boris Johnson as his political adviser during his period as mayor of London, later writing a book about his experience working closely with Crosby on campaigns. He later went on to run a political campaigning company and became political director on Zac Goldsmith?s ill-fated mayoral bid.

The Brexit supporter said his involvement in Mainstream Network was because ?some who disliked the result have been actively trying to overturn it?. He did not comment on his links to Crosby but said: ?I wanted to see the result actually delivered and give a voice to that majority so the democratic result is honoured.?

Dawson, the public face of Britain?s Future, declined to comment on who has funded his enormous Facebook ad campaign or whether it was linked to Crosby or the Mainstream Network, instead saying he simply wanted to represent 17.4 million Brexit voters, adding: ?This is my way of getting the point across to those in Westminster that the government should honour its manifesto and that the current deal is not what we voted for.?

Solomon, the CTF employee, is also connected to a page called We Are the 52%, which has spent more than 50,000 GBP on pro-Brexit Facebook adverts and is fronted by a Conservative activist and former Vote Leave staffer Theodora Dickinson.

Dickinson declined to comment on any links between her group and Crosby?s company but said remain campaigners ?are using similar tactics and spending more? without fully declaring their financial backers, highlighting the 370,000 GBP expenditure on Facebook adverts by the People?s Vote campaign and the 300,000 GBP spent by Best for Britain.

Solomon is also listed as an administrator on at least a dozen other pro-Brexit pages, which typically mix campaigning content with other unrelated interests and appear to have also spent money running an unknown number of pro-Brexit adverts. Pages used for the messaging include Small Business for Great Britain, Northern Industry, and Protecting British Heritage.

The House of Commons digital, culture, media and sport select committee, which has led the way on investigating online disinformation, has repeatedly called for Facebook to reveal the identities of those who were funding Mainstream Network, suggesting they crossed an ethical line.

?I believe there is a strong public interest in understanding who is behind the Mainstream Network, and that this information should be published,? said the committee?s chairman, Damian Collins, last month after Facebook refused to identify the individuals behind the page.

?People should have a right to know who is targeting them with political advertisements and why. That is why the committee had called for a change in the law to outlaw these kind of dark adverts from secret campaigns,? he said.

Although the documents point towards the individuals who are running the campaigns, it remains unclear who is ultimately picking up the substantial bill for this attempt to persuade MPs there is a grassroots uprising for a hard Brexit.

CTF Partners, Carroll, and Solomon did not respond to requests for comment.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Neurotic Void Melody said:
oh dear, more tomfuckery has been unveiled


A series of hugely influential Facebook advertising campaigns that appear to be separate grassroots movements for a no-deal Brexit are secretly overseen by employees of Sir Lynton Crosby?s lobbying company and a former adviser to Boris Johnson, documents seen by the Guardian reveal.

The mysterious groups, which have names such as Mainstream Network and Britain?s Future, appear to be run independently by members of the public and give no hint that they are connected. But in reality they share an administrator who works for Crosby?s CTF Partners and have spent as much as 1m GBP promoting sophisticated targeted adverts aimed at heaping pressure on individual MPs to vote for a hard Brexit.

Repeated questions have been raised about who is backing at least a dozen high-spending groups that have flooded MPs? inboxes with calls to reject Theresa May?s deal, but until now they were thought to be independent entities.

But according to the documents, almost all the major pro-Brexit Facebook ?grassroots? advertising campaigns in the UK share the same page admins or advertisers. These individuals include employees of CTF Partners and the political director of Boris Johnson?s campaigns to be mayor of London, who has worked closely with Crosby in the past.

Their collective Facebook expenditure swamps the amount spent in the last six months by all the UK?s major political parties and the UK government combined. They have paid for thousands of different targeted Facebook ads encouraging members of the public to write to their local MPs and call for the toughest possible exit from the EU, creating the impression of organic public opposition to Theresa May?s deal.

Crosby?s secretive lobbying company CTF Partners has come under increasing scrutiny in recent months. Leaked documents have revealed how it boasts of its ability to run fake online grassroots campaigns that encourage users to join an online community and then be ?mobilised to communicate directly with key decision-makers?, whether to delegitimise the Qatari government or convince people that burning coal is good.

The Australian political strategist has also been repeatedly linked to a potential Conservative leadership campaign by Johnson, having been lined up to run the former foreign secretary?s abortive 2016 bid for the same position. CTF Partners gave Johnson an interest-free loan of 23,000 GBP ? subsequently repaid ? in January, while the company already employs arch-Brexiter former Tory MP Stewart Jackson in an advisory role and paid for ex-Brexit secretary David Davis to go on trips.

Mainstream Network attracted attention last year when it was exposed for spending at least 250,000 GBP to reach more than 10 million voters with adverts urging voters to email their local MP and urging them to ?chuck Chequers?, alongside articles criticising George Soros?s involvement in the remain campaign. After it attracted attention it was abruptly shut down.

Although Facebook has substantially increased the level of transparency around political advertising in recent months, all that is required to run such a campaign is a publicly-named individual who is registered to a UK postal address or contact details for a public organisation. There is no true disclosure around a campaign?s financial backers and no UK law requiring financial transparency outside an election period.

After the closure of the Mainstream Network site, similar adverts began appearing on a Facebook page named Britain?s Future, whose public frontman is a former Two Pints Of Lager And A Packet Of Crisps scriptwriter named Tim Dawson who later became a Conservative council candidate.

The group hit the headlines last month when it was revealed it was the biggest single UK political advertiser on Facebook, spending 422,000 GPB on adverts campaigning for a hard Brexit despite never declaring its financial backers.

According to the documents seen by the Guardian, individuals with the ability to place adverts on both the Mainstream Network and Britain?s Future page include Reuben Solomon, whom multiple sources identified as an employee of Crosby?s CTF Partners.

He did not respond to a request for comment but a relative, who previously lived with him at an address in north London, confirmed to the Guardian that Solomon worked for Crosby.

According to the documents, other individuals with oversight of the Mainstream Network Facebook page include Charles Carroll and Alex Crowley.

Carroll, who deleted his LinkedIn profile after the Guardian began to seek comment for this article, also works for Crosby?s CTF Partners, according to a cached version of the page.

Crowley was employed by Boris Johnson as his political adviser during his period as mayor of London, later writing a book about his experience working closely with Crosby on campaigns. He later went on to run a political campaigning company and became political director on Zac Goldsmith?s ill-fated mayoral bid.

The Brexit supporter said his involvement in Mainstream Network was because ?some who disliked the result have been actively trying to overturn it?. He did not comment on his links to Crosby but said: ?I wanted to see the result actually delivered and give a voice to that majority so the democratic result is honoured.?

Dawson, the public face of Britain?s Future, declined to comment on who has funded his enormous Facebook ad campaign or whether it was linked to Crosby or the Mainstream Network, instead saying he simply wanted to represent 17.4 million Brexit voters, adding: ?This is my way of getting the point across to those in Westminster that the government should honour its manifesto and that the current deal is not what we voted for.?

Solomon, the CTF employee, is also connected to a page called We Are the 52%, which has spent more than 50,000 GBP on pro-Brexit Facebook adverts and is fronted by a Conservative activist and former Vote Leave staffer Theodora Dickinson.

Dickinson declined to comment on any links between her group and Crosby?s company but said remain campaigners ?are using similar tactics and spending more? without fully declaring their financial backers, highlighting the 370,000 GBP expenditure on Facebook adverts by the People?s Vote campaign and the 300,000 GBP spent by Best for Britain.

Solomon is also listed as an administrator on at least a dozen other pro-Brexit pages, which typically mix campaigning content with other unrelated interests and appear to have also spent money running an unknown number of pro-Brexit adverts. Pages used for the messaging include Small Business for Great Britain, Northern Industry, and Protecting British Heritage.

The House of Commons digital, culture, media and sport select committee, which has led the way on investigating online disinformation, has repeatedly called for Facebook to reveal the identities of those who were funding Mainstream Network, suggesting they crossed an ethical line.

?I believe there is a strong public interest in understanding who is behind the Mainstream Network, and that this information should be published,? said the committee?s chairman, Damian Collins, last month after Facebook refused to identify the individuals behind the page.

?People should have a right to know who is targeting them with political advertisements and why. That is why the committee had called for a change in the law to outlaw these kind of dark adverts from secret campaigns,? he said.

Although the documents point towards the individuals who are running the campaigns, it remains unclear who is ultimately picking up the substantial bill for this attempt to persuade MPs there is a grassroots uprising for a hard Brexit.

CTF Partners, Carroll, and Solomon did not respond to requests for comment.
No wonder they are so dead set against letting the public have final say. They know the public will never support this so they want to try and force them to accept against their will by faking support. Reminds me of how the FCC in the US was caught faking support for ending net Neutrality, then when even that failed due to the sheer amount of opposition they received, they faked being taken offline by a DDoS attack that never happened. I am amazed at how these people are still in their jobs and not prosecuted for this BS tbh. I hope one day they look back in disgust at the sheer level of corruption we are dealing with in these times.

https://gizmodo.com/senators-demand-fcc-answer-for-fake-comments-after-real-1826213294
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/08/fcc-lied-to-congress-about-made-up-ddos-attack-investigation-found/

Looks like they are taking a page out of the Republican playbook in the US.
 

generals3

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Silvanus said:
TheIronRuler said:
Democracy means you as a political movement can lose the vote sometimes. Accepting a loss is as important as accepting a political victory in preserving the integrity of the political system. Moving forward as a nation is more important for the survival of the UK, instead of squabbling over an issue that was already decided the morning after the vote.
Again: we have multiple proven breaches of electoral law. Is it respecting the integrity of the political system to ignore electoral fraud, and go ahead with the outcome of any referenda that were decided by such dubious means?

And, again: the Leave campaign campaigned on the basis of getting a deal. Leaving without one has never been expressed as the will of the people, and it is quite explicitly not the will of the people. It is deeply unpopular.

You cannot pursue a policy that was not voted on, and simultaneously call it the result of democratic expression. To do so would be ludicrous.
We could also add that the proposition which lost with smallest margin is the one arguing for the UK to join EFTA. Which, if we assume the parliament represents the people, means that would be the least undemocratic choice. Ironically it's the brexit proposition which is the closest to actually remaining.
 

Silvanus

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generals3 said:
We could also add that the proposition which lost with smallest margin is the one arguing for the UK to join EFTA. Which, if we assume the parliament represents the people, means that would be the least undemocratic choice. Ironically it's the brexit proposition which is the closest to actually remaining.
I think you might mean the Customs Union; that was defeated 276 to 273 (Source [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/01/brexit-what-are-the-indicative-votes-mps-will-vote-on]). EFTA without Customs Union was defeated 64 to 377 (Source [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/27/alternative-brexit-options-what-will-john-bercow-select-for-indicative-votes]).

NB: The Independent Group, which favours a second referendum, did not vote for the Customs Union plan, despite the fact that its defeat brings a no-deal exit much closer. Much anger among Labour MPs about this, apparently. If we end up with neither a Customs Union nor a second referendum, there's going to be quite a lot of blame apportioned to the Independent Group.
 

generals3

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Silvanus said:
generals3 said:
We could also add that the proposition which lost with smallest margin is the one arguing for the UK to join EFTA. Which, if we assume the parliament represents the people, means that would be the least undemocratic choice. Ironically it's the brexit proposition which is the closest to actually remaining.
I think you might mean the Customs Union; that was defeated 276 to 273 (Source [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/01/brexit-what-are-the-indicative-votes-mps-will-vote-on]). EFTA without Customs Union was defeated 64 to 377 (Source [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/27/alternative-brexit-options-what-will-john-bercow-select-for-indicative-votes]).

NB: The Independent Group, which favours a second referendum, did not vote for the Customs Union plan, despite the fact that its defeat brings a no-deal exit much closer. Much anger among Labour MPs about this, apparently. If we end up with neither a Customs Union nor a second referendum, there's going to be quite a lot of blame apportioned to the Independent Group.
My Apologies, it was indeed the customs union, the second closest to a remain. And that's really a bad move of the independent group, but that's politics i guess... They probably hope the government would de facto go for a second referendum or remaining if no deal gets agreed upon. Which is starting to look like a very dangerous gamble like holding the first referandum..
 

Avnger

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Neurotic Void Melody said:
oh dear, more tomfuckery has been unveiled


A series of hugely influential Facebook advertising campaigns that appear to be separate grassroots movements for a no-deal Brexit are secretly overseen by employees of Sir Lynton Crosby?s lobbying company and a former adviser to Boris Johnson, documents seen by the Guardian reveal.

The mysterious groups, which have names such as Mainstream Network and Britain?s Future, appear to be run independently by members of the public and give no hint that they are connected. But in reality they share an administrator who works for Crosby?s CTF Partners and have spent as much as 1m GBP promoting sophisticated targeted adverts aimed at heaping pressure on individual MPs to vote for a hard Brexit.

Repeated questions have been raised about who is backing at least a dozen high-spending groups that have flooded MPs? inboxes with calls to reject Theresa May?s deal, but until now they were thought to be independent entities.

But according to the documents, almost all the major pro-Brexit Facebook ?grassroots? advertising campaigns in the UK share the same page admins or advertisers. These individuals include employees of CTF Partners and the political director of Boris Johnson?s campaigns to be mayor of London, who has worked closely with Crosby in the past.

Their collective Facebook expenditure swamps the amount spent in the last six months by all the UK?s major political parties and the UK government combined. They have paid for thousands of different targeted Facebook ads encouraging members of the public to write to their local MPs and call for the toughest possible exit from the EU, creating the impression of organic public opposition to Theresa May?s deal.

Crosby?s secretive lobbying company CTF Partners has come under increasing scrutiny in recent months. Leaked documents have revealed how it boasts of its ability to run fake online grassroots campaigns that encourage users to join an online community and then be ?mobilised to communicate directly with key decision-makers?, whether to delegitimise the Qatari government or convince people that burning coal is good.

The Australian political strategist has also been repeatedly linked to a potential Conservative leadership campaign by Johnson, having been lined up to run the former foreign secretary?s abortive 2016 bid for the same position. CTF Partners gave Johnson an interest-free loan of 23,000 GBP ? subsequently repaid ? in January, while the company already employs arch-Brexiter former Tory MP Stewart Jackson in an advisory role and paid for ex-Brexit secretary David Davis to go on trips.

Mainstream Network attracted attention last year when it was exposed for spending at least 250,000 GBP to reach more than 10 million voters with adverts urging voters to email their local MP and urging them to ?chuck Chequers?, alongside articles criticising George Soros?s involvement in the remain campaign. After it attracted attention it was abruptly shut down.

Although Facebook has substantially increased the level of transparency around political advertising in recent months, all that is required to run such a campaign is a publicly-named individual who is registered to a UK postal address or contact details for a public organisation. There is no true disclosure around a campaign?s financial backers and no UK law requiring financial transparency outside an election period.

After the closure of the Mainstream Network site, similar adverts began appearing on a Facebook page named Britain?s Future, whose public frontman is a former Two Pints Of Lager And A Packet Of Crisps scriptwriter named Tim Dawson who later became a Conservative council candidate.

The group hit the headlines last month when it was revealed it was the biggest single UK political advertiser on Facebook, spending 422,000 GPB on adverts campaigning for a hard Brexit despite never declaring its financial backers.

According to the documents seen by the Guardian, individuals with the ability to place adverts on both the Mainstream Network and Britain?s Future page include Reuben Solomon, whom multiple sources identified as an employee of Crosby?s CTF Partners.

He did not respond to a request for comment but a relative, who previously lived with him at an address in north London, confirmed to the Guardian that Solomon worked for Crosby.

According to the documents, other individuals with oversight of the Mainstream Network Facebook page include Charles Carroll and Alex Crowley.

Carroll, who deleted his LinkedIn profile after the Guardian began to seek comment for this article, also works for Crosby?s CTF Partners, according to a cached version of the page.

Crowley was employed by Boris Johnson as his political adviser during his period as mayor of London, later writing a book about his experience working closely with Crosby on campaigns. He later went on to run a political campaigning company and became political director on Zac Goldsmith?s ill-fated mayoral bid.

The Brexit supporter said his involvement in Mainstream Network was because ?some who disliked the result have been actively trying to overturn it?. He did not comment on his links to Crosby but said: ?I wanted to see the result actually delivered and give a voice to that majority so the democratic result is honoured.?

Dawson, the public face of Britain?s Future, declined to comment on who has funded his enormous Facebook ad campaign or whether it was linked to Crosby or the Mainstream Network, instead saying he simply wanted to represent 17.4 million Brexit voters, adding: ?This is my way of getting the point across to those in Westminster that the government should honour its manifesto and that the current deal is not what we voted for.?

Solomon, the CTF employee, is also connected to a page called We Are the 52%, which has spent more than 50,000 GBP on pro-Brexit Facebook adverts and is fronted by a Conservative activist and former Vote Leave staffer Theodora Dickinson.

Dickinson declined to comment on any links between her group and Crosby?s company but said remain campaigners ?are using similar tactics and spending more? without fully declaring their financial backers, highlighting the 370,000 GBP expenditure on Facebook adverts by the People?s Vote campaign and the 300,000 GBP spent by Best for Britain.

Solomon is also listed as an administrator on at least a dozen other pro-Brexit pages, which typically mix campaigning content with other unrelated interests and appear to have also spent money running an unknown number of pro-Brexit adverts. Pages used for the messaging include Small Business for Great Britain, Northern Industry, and Protecting British Heritage.

The House of Commons digital, culture, media and sport select committee, which has led the way on investigating online disinformation, has repeatedly called for Facebook to reveal the identities of those who were funding Mainstream Network, suggesting they crossed an ethical line.

?I believe there is a strong public interest in understanding who is behind the Mainstream Network, and that this information should be published,? said the committee?s chairman, Damian Collins, last month after Facebook refused to identify the individuals behind the page.

?People should have a right to know who is targeting them with political advertisements and why. That is why the committee had called for a change in the law to outlaw these kind of dark adverts from secret campaigns,? he said.

Although the documents point towards the individuals who are running the campaigns, it remains unclear who is ultimately picking up the substantial bill for this attempt to persuade MPs there is a grassroots uprising for a hard Brexit.

CTF Partners, Carroll, and Solomon did not respond to requests for comment.
I know its almost cliche at this point, but anyone want to take bets on the Russian government and/or oligarchs having at least partially funded the operation?
 

Seanchaidh

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Avnger said:
I know its almost cliche at this point, but anyone want to take bets on the Russian government and/or oligarchs having at least partially funded the operation?
Or American oligarchs? Perhaps some insidious Canadian oligarchs.
 

Thaluikhain

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Avnger said:
I know its almost cliche at this point, but anyone want to take bets on the Russian government and/or oligarchs having at least partially funded the operation?
It's "almost cliche" in that it's part of the job of the Russian intelligence services to cause problems for countries like the UK. If they aren't meddling in the biggest political issues of one of the most important NATO countries, they better start looking for new jobs.
 

Agema

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Neurotic Void Melody said:
oh dear, more tomfuckery has been unveiled


Dawson, the public face of Britain?s Future, declined to comment on who has funded his enormous Facebook ad campaign or whether it was linked to Crosby or the Mainstream Network, instead saying he simply wanted to represent 17.4 million Brexit voters, adding: "This is my way of getting the point across to those in Westminster that the government should honour its manifesto and that the current deal is not what we voted for."
He has no idea what sort of Brexit 17.4 million people voted for. They were offered simultaneously all manner of hard and soft Brexits at the referendum, of which only one could actually be done. If you consider the 48% who voted Remain and who - presumably - would favour a very soft Brexit, then it would require just a tiny percentage of Brexiters to have wanted the same to make the most appropriate democratic option a soft Brexit.

And herein lies the trick where hard Brexiters have tried to use the Brexit vote as a rationale to argue whatever plan they've dreamed up has democratic assent. However, public polls indicate that hard Brexit options are all well under 50% in poularity stakes.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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Lil devils x said:
No wonder they are so dead set against letting the public have final say. They know the public will never support this so they want to try and force them to accept against their will by faking support. Reminds me of how the FCC in the US was caught faking support for ending net Neutrality, then when even that failed due to the sheer amount of opposition they received, they faked being taken offline by a DDoS attack that never happened. I am amazed at how these people are still in their jobs and not prosecuted for this BS tbh. I hope one day they look back in disgust at the sheer level of corruption we are dealing with in these times.

https://gizmodo.com/senators-demand-fcc-answer-for-fake-comments-after-real-1826213294
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/08/fcc-lied-to-congress-about-made-up-ddos-attack-investigation-found/

Looks like they are taking a page out of the Republican playbook in the US.
Oh, completely missed those reports at the time! Must of been during a news hibernation period. What manipulative selfish shits. Though I think generally it's less to do with learning dirty tricks from others and more that this type of behaviour just comes naturally to the type of person who views the rest of society as some sort of cattle solely there to bolster their own wealth and power. And if Eton encourages anything effectively, it would appear to be that very mindset. The means and the ends are equally despicable.

Agema said:
He has no idea what sort of Brexit 17.4 million people voted for. They were offered simultaneously all manner of hard and soft Brexits at the referendum, of which only one could actually be done. If you consider the 48% who voted Remain and who - presumably - would favour a very soft Brexit, then it would require just a tiny percentage of Brexiters to have wanted the same to make the most appropriate democratic option a soft Brexit.

And herein lies the trick where hard Brexiters have tried to use the Brexit vote as a rationale to argue whatever plan they've dreamed up has democratic assent. However, public polls indicate that hard Brexit options are all well under 50% in poularity stakes.
Yeah, that is a noticeable habit of these hardliners and other variations whom all love to piggyback and appropriate whatever they can to try and appear far more legitimate than they are. They are so afraid of an actual vote where the public are increasingly informed and presented with clearer options, it's very telling in the rhetoric deployed. They have to rely on perpetuating ignorance to get what they desire.

Avnger said:
I know its almost cliche at this point, but anyone want to take bets on the Russian government and/or oligarchs having at least partially funded the operation?
Certainly not ruling it out, especially with Aaron Banks and his shady bullshit. But shouldn't forget there are always plenty of the business/upper class more than happy to benefit from public disaster with the time, wealth and contacts to prepare accordingly.
 

TheIronRuler

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Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?

I'm still waiting on news on the matter, it seems to me they're stalling for the inevitable. They aren't even trying to revert the situation at this point.
 

Thaluikhain

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TheIronRuler said:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?
In of itself, it seems unlikely. Though, consistently bad government leading to worsening conditions for the people do tend to proceed one or the other of those, but countries can exists as a shambles without that happening.
 

TheIronRuler

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Thaluikhain said:
TheIronRuler said:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?
In of itself, it seems unlikely. Though, consistently bad government leading to worsening conditions for the people do tend to proceed one or the other of those, but countries can exists as a shambles without that happening.
.
Yeah, definitely true. Your country be ran badly like Mozambique or if you want a European example, I think Greece also fits the bill. However if one of the two would happen, which one of them do you think will it be?

Worker's Union of Britain or Free Albion? I also accept better names for the two candidates.
 

Thaluikhain

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TheIronRuler said:
However if one of the two would happen, which one of them do you think will it be?
My money's on fascism, the UK has a number of far-right parties and groups worth listening to or courting already. Brexit itself was largely based on a form of the attitudes you see in fascism (xenophobia and the desire for some imagined golden age before "they" ruined it all), though to a lesser extent.

Communism just doesn't have the same power behind it. You've got people who get called communists because they don't like fascists, and you've got various people somewhat sympathetic to communists, but neither of those are likely to give your communist uprising much useful support.
 

Agema

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TheIronRuler said:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?
I don't think the combined might of the UK's 38 citizens who are Communists will be capable of mounting a takeover. Even if we include the non-Communist hard left, it's barely scraping into single digit percentages of the British populace.

Fascists, however - or more strictly illiberal right-wing populists of some description who are not quite fascists - much more likely. They've already got a party of note, numerous social movements in full flow, get TV airtime, plus some newspapers pounding out consistent commentary.
 

Baffle

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Just in case anyone had forgotten how small-minded people can be: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47833702

Edit: Sorry, meant to note: Slow news day?!
 

TheIronRuler

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Thaluikhain said:
TheIronRuler said:
However if one of the two would happen, which one of them do you think will it be?
My money's on fascism, the UK has a number of far-right parties and groups worth listening to or courting already. Brexit itself was largely based on a form of the attitudes you see in fascism (xenophobia and the desire for some imagined golden age before "they" ruined it all), though to a lesser extent.

Communism just doesn't have the same power behind it. You've got people who get called communists because they don't like fascists, and you've got various people somewhat sympathetic to communists, but neither of those are likely to give your communist uprising much useful support.
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I mean yeah, but the oppressive policing of the UK is hitting them hard on the head. Like, really hard. Plus, you're facing jail sentences if you're carrying a knife around, so pulling brown-shirts is probably out of the question. Unless they're voted in, which I don't think would happen because the establishment would just delete them... Then again, this infrastructure for a surveliance state is deliciously fit for a high-tech fascist regime.
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Agema said:
TheIronRuler said:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?
I don't think the combined might of the UK's 38 citizens who are Communists will be capable of mounting a takeover. Even if we include the non-Communist hard left, it's barely scraping into single digit percentages of the British populace.

Fascists, however - or more strictly illiberal right-wing populists of some description who are not quite fascists - much more likely. They've already got a party of note, numerous social movements in full flow, get TV airtime, plus some newspapers pounding out consistent commentary.
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I think labor can be voted into power after the UK leaves the EU due to the current party handling this disaster. Then it's a few years of good campaigning to bolster the numbers of those 38 communists, which I believe some of them are forum members. UK already has infrastructure for a surveillance police-state. I'm not saying China, that's a long way off, but still... enough to handle troublemakers. Right-wing populist trouble-makers.
 
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TheIronRuler said:
you can't refuse to accept it and ask for a second vote just because you lost! It is literally undemocratic to disregard a previous vote, and make a second vote!
how about if the people in charge are incapable of directing us out of the EU?
or that we were promised the world would be beating down our door, but now we've seen that no one is?
or that it wasn't defined if we were voting to leave with or without a deal?

how do you meet the needs of a populous which voted 48% remain, while the other 52% is split between deal and no deal without anyone knowing the ratio?
 

Agema

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TheIronRuler said:
I think labor can be voted into power after the UK leaves the EU due to the current party handling this disaster. Then it's a few years of good campaigning to bolster the numbers of those 38 communists, which I believe some of them are forum members. UK already has infrastructure for a surveillance police-state. I'm not saying China, that's a long way off, but still... enough to handle troublemakers. Right-wing populist trouble-makers.
If Labour were remotely Communist - which outside the wildest fantasies of the right wing press it most certainly isn't - then that might be an argument. As far as I am aware, no Communist has been in evidence on the Escapist for about 3-4 years.

Communism is moribund. Hard socialism is moribund. They've been so for decades. The political scene has shifted well to the right since the days when they were a societal force, that's the only reason now people who propose policies rolling back capitalism to approximately pre-neoliberal 1980s are demonised as "far left". But society wasn't socialist then, and it won't be socialist if we went back to something similar-ish now.

We're in a world where a dodgy right-wing populist is deputy PM of Italy inciting homophobia and xenophobia, where dodgy right-wing populists with histories of Holocaust denial come close to the presidency of France, where dodgy right wing populists have run Hungary for years with overt racism, where the president of the USA calls white nationalists "fine people", where countless dodgy right-wing populists have millions of YouTube followers... Why on earth is anyone worried about Communism, with its approximately zero representation in national politics and media?