How many people claim to be Communists on YouTube? Far less than people claiming to be Libertarians. And that's not a big group. Yet somehow we're being overrun with Post-Modern Cultural Marxists. Despite those two groups not liking each other.Agema said:
[POLITICS] Brexit deadline
- Thread starter Seanchaidh
- Start date
.Agema said:
Resurgence of nationalism in Europe is a blessing in disguise. Truly they will want to distance themselves from the Holocaust, and I think most peoples can do that safely. The Bulgarians, for example, are still appreciated for protecting their Jewish countrymen. The Dutch attempted to burn the country's records and census to stop the Nazis from accurately finding and liquidating any Jews in the Netherlands.
However the same cannot be said for the French, among other peoples. Even the Poles are attempting to salvage their national honor by distancing themselves from the German-ran death-camps on Polish soil. This is all means to purify national honor and justify national unity - a key-step in strengthening the ideas of a nation - like Italy, Hungary, Poland...
Communism is ever-present in modern Marxist thought, which has overtaken western universities and governments. Critical theory lead by the Frankfurt school for example can be read as Marxists disguising themselves after the utter moral and actual failure of their ideals and policies... You can shroud your shit in post-modernism, but people will still smell shit whenever they view it, unaware of its influences and past.
Wow; it's been awhile since someone went full "Cultural Marxism controls the world" word-salad around here. Though from your previous rhetoric, it's not too surprising you're a believer. How's QAnon doing these days?TheIronRuler said:
You need to read some actual leftists, my dude. Post-modernism and leftism are often completely at odds. Not hard to find prominent leftist or leftist publications talking about the evils of post-modernism.TheIronRuler said:
The Frankfurt School made some valid points in its criticism of culture under capitalism that still ring true to this day but Marxists they weren't. Inspired by Marx for sure but they deviated from his analysis in significant ways that make it hard to think of them as Marxists or even as particularly far to the left. I actually agree that a lot of what's wrong with modern liberalism is in part their fault, namely the incredibly bright notion that the revolutionary vanguard won't be the workers but, as a matter of fact, prissy bourgeois intellectuals like them that will finally liberate a working class that can't think for itself.TheIronRuler said:
It's the reason why the modern western left is still full of the very same prissy bourgeois intellectuals who have zero class consciousness but sure like to moralize endlessly. What's important for the left right now is for it to reconnect to its proletarian roots, for which the teachings of the Frankfurt School are more than counterproductive. They aren't a Marxist movement that's appropriating liberalism, they are a liberal movement that's appropriating marxism.
I don't think anyone thinks that will happen. What is already happening, and will continue to happen is people will lose their homes, jobs and country and millions of people will suffer needlessly from this nonsense. Some UK citizens have already moved out of the country over it, many more from the EU as well, and this will only get much worse the further this madness goes. Many are waiting to see if this fails to happen and are hoping common sense finally prevails and need to know for sure before ripping their family up from their homes, schools, friends to go make a new life elsewhere. Many people employed in science, research and the financial sectors are pretty on edge over this, if it actually does happen they will be leaving the country. Many do not have choice if they want to keep their jobs they will have to move out of the UK.TheIronRuler said:
https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/britain-already-66000000000-poorer-brexit-9113538/
Nazis March in Charlottesville? It's because liberals pushed them into it.Lil devils x said:
The Tories make a balls of Brexit? It's because "remoaners" are holding them back. (Also blame the Irish)
Everything is the fault of liberals (or communists or marxists or soy boys or cucks) even when every major developed country has been led by conservatives for decades, have you not learned that yet.
Will they now:TheIronRuler said:
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Hungarys-Viktor-Orban-fosters-antisemitism-563642
https://www.timesofisrael.com/polish-anti-semitism-festers-on-the-internet/
They disown the Holocaust, because it's electorally convenient (like they support free speech only when it's convenient for them). As they faciliate anti-semitism, so it is particularly important to put up a veneer suggesting otherwise. But anti-semitism is rife in European nationalism: they're about white skin and Christian culture and Jews will always be outsiders to them. The other thing is that I also care about the rights of a lot of groups other than Jews that European nationalists consider outsiders to be suppressed (homosexuals being an obvious example). If you don't consider the growing threat to them a problem for your "blessing in disguise", that's your prerogative.
I think people who don't have any noticable experience of Western universities have a very strange idea of what goes in Western universities. I work in a Western university, and I don't know a single Marxist in it. Going back through my full ~20 years working in Western universities, I have known precisely one Marxist colleague.
It's fascinating to read an Israeli Jew propounding an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. The Frankfurt School were Jews, and they were openly Marxist - they didn't disguise themselves. And they certainly didn't try to create a secret plan to wreck Western society.
Although the key thing is to consider what Marxism is. Firstly, it's sure as shit not postmodernism, because Marx was as modernist as they come and postmodernism was explicitly a reaction to the failures of modernism in the early 20th century. Marxism is not communism, either: Marx didn't even describe communism, except in very vague terms. Much as Marxism has an associated idealised notion of how society (should) end up, ultimately it's a small part of the whole.
Marxism is a very broad collection of theory about stuff like working class empowerment, criticism of late 19th century Western society and capitalism, and ideas about how societies develop. It is perhaps inevitable that at least of some that material turned out to be useful or accurate. Obviously, some of that was therefore incorporated into wider knowledge and understanding, built upon and developed, just like happens with all such thought. Most of it was social so ended up in sociology, but there are bits in economics and elsewhere too. But this isn't full on Marxism. Some of it is new intellectual movements with some element of Marxism. Or you can have "Marxist economists", for instance, but you'll find a lot of them don't support political Marxism at all: they just believe various Marxist principles about the relationship of labour, wages, capital, etc.
What the current "red scare" is really about is a lot of poorly developed attempts to associate leftish wing ideologies with Marx (like "cultural Marxism": dog whistle and antisemitic conspiracy theory which collapses into gibberish when tested) and then say the Commies are trying to take over. And hey, just like in the 1930s, here come the nationalists to save us from the red peril, preaching to save society by excluding and repressing anyone they don't like the look of.
it's telling that such positions are so terrible, weak and cannot be reasonably justified when it regularly falls back on "you made us do it." that's what domestic abusers do. except there's not even the flimsy "it's because I love you" ...it's just the spite, denial and callous disregard for anyone but themselves and their fragile sense of prideCheetoDust said:
if only there was some sort of consumable people could get a hold of that encourages empathy and a far less bitter outlook towards other fellow humans while growing a more positive view of what we can achieve when cooperating in good faith. oh wait, there is, it's just they made it illegal and fired the leading researcher on associated potential harms when he said horse riding was statistically more dangerous. how convenient. can't have a public any less enshrouded by fear and despair now, can we? all the hard effort the British conservative press goes through would be for nought!
Seems like you might have discovered our nefarious plan of weakening both the EU and the UK, therefore allowing us to snag more preferential trade deals for the white-and-red motherland.Seanchaidh said:
Canuck tactical retreat action - engage.
In all seriousness, I don't get why May would even try to court support from Rees-Mogg and his ilk, they're clearly not arguing in good faith, and are all and all fucking crackers. The fact that she would try to appease them before even considering going to Labour for a compromise deal tells us a lot about the state of the Tories, they're compromised by ultrapaleoconservatives and UKIP loonies. The sooner this cancerous growth of a political entity bursts, the better.
The Conservatives have long been an uneasy alliance between the business-minded, upper-middle-class, corporatist Tories-- who value stability, and have some grasp of trade and economics-- and the "little England" nationalist kind.Sonmi said:
The latter care more about the demographic make-up of the country (or nebulous ideas of national pride) than they do about GDP or economic performance.
The Conservatives' electoral success relies on both groups, so they cannot afford to alienate either one. Presently, they fear the latter group deserting them (for UKIP or simple abstention) than they fear the former group deserting them. Hence the endless appeasing of the idiotic nationalist fantasies of liars like Francois, Johnson, or Rees-Mogg.
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So we've got nearly half a year longer. One of the more interesting results of this is, unless an exit agreement gets passed very quickly, that we'll be taking part in the upcoming May 2019 European elections. Considering that even in the best of times these weren't taken very seriously, expect a clown show. I imagine both the main parties will lose a lot votes to protest candidates on either side. Hell, I don't know who I'll vote for yet. Whoever makes the best statement I suppose, or even a joke candidate, if any decent ones run in my area.
If neo communists have infested western governments then why are most western governments of note right wing governments and have been for the past decades?TheIronRuler said:
In Europe right wing parties have been dominant for decades.
The Torries seem the more dominant political party when compared to Labour and are currently in power
The Netherlands is ruled by the liberals, actual right wing liberals rather than America's weird left wing liberalism. Before the liberals it was the Christian democrats.
In Germany the CSU reign's supreme which is a Christian democrat party.
The EU itself was founded by Christian democrats
Eastern Europe is overrun by right wing populists.
Europe isn't exactly witnessing a Leftist Renaissance either. Most social democrat parties are in shambles for having moved too far to the right during the crisis.
America has always leaned more to the right with even the Democrats arguably being a right wing party when compared to European parties.
If there is a grand leftist conspiracy to rule the world it is completely inept. What evil mastermind can plot for decades and infiltrate all levels of society to install left wing governments only to preserve the right wing stats quo, have Left wing parties lean more to the right and witness the age of right wing populism.
The most important thing to remember is that the ultimate objective of Theresa May, right from the start, has been to pass a Brexit for the Tory party, not a Brexit for the country.Sonmi said:
The May deal was probably - at least in terms of the Tory party - the best route to pick to satisfy members: not too hard and not too soft. The other 60% of the country was metaphorically left to go fuck itself - their opinions about Brexit didn't enter into it. I think she probably underestimated just how fanatical the hard Brexiters ("ERG", they are often referred as) would be.
She can't pass a harder Brexit because the evidence suggests the harder the Brexit the more the economic pain, and in the longer term that damage would likely stain the Conservative Party severely; she may also risk loss of significant "soft Brexit Tories". She can't pass a softer Brexit without the backing of other parties, and to the extreme rage of harder Brexiters amongst the Tories.
So that's why she's been trying to win over her party loonies: party first, country second.
I mean every problem in Ireland is still blamed on Sinn Fein and "Looney lefties" even though last time Sinn Fein we're in power was 1922 and since then we have traded between right wing Fianna fail and further right wing fine fine gael. But apparently Ireland's leadership is liberal because Varadkar is gay.Hades said:
Surprised we got a second extension tbh. Thought the first one might have been the end of the EU's patience. Ah well, I'm glad everyone agrees we need to avoid a hard BrexitJoJo said:
I'd take the EU vote quite serious if I were you because it might just as well be considered a second referendum. If eurosceptical parties make a huge score that will send a strong anti-EU signal to May (and the parliament) and vice versa.JoJo said:
Well, Western Europe (with the exception of the UK?) has had its center pushed to the left for decades now. And it is still ongoing. At least on social issues. Economics wise it's a bit more difficult to say but european nations were already quite the centrists and still are. And while you accuse European nations of going too far to the right during the crisis i'd argue they had gone too far to the left prior to it. Keynes has always argued that during an economic boom a government needs a surplus they can (over)spend during a crisis, but when you start a crisis with (large) deficits/debts you have a problem. The risk of the debt snowball effect becomes real.Hades said:
I wouldn't say there is an inept conspiracy but there is a lot of inept advocacy. The militancy has managed to push us ever more into progressive extremism but has failed to do the same economically. And there is a good reason for that, social democratic politicians know they can't go further to the left without risking to break the economy. Globalisation has pretty much destroyed the socialist dream. Some Companies have become larger economies than some countries and that gives them a lot of leverage on policies. And lets not forget rich people are more mobile than ever. This has made fiscal competition among countries ever greater. And as economic theory would dictate, increased competition pushes down prices, in this case "taxes".
And the rising nationalism is a response to the creeping progressive extremism. And to a certain extent also capitalism.
In what way? Socially, in ways, yes. Economically, it's been deregulation, decreased welfare and social services.generals3 said:
No, I think it's more the other way around. In the UK, many studies have demonstrated that increases in anti-EU sentiment overwhelmingly grew in areas hit hardest by austerity brought in by the Tories in 2010. In Italy, there's persistent frustration with corruption, inefficiency, economic stagnation. Italy and Belgium, both with a regional separatist element (Northern League in Italy and the Flanders/Wallonia divide) represent frustration with richer areas of the country who feel they are propping up poor, and not so similarly, the gilets jaunes in France overwhelmingly represent rural citizens who feel "left behind" as growth centres around the cities. Immigration is an issue, but would be a tolerable one were it not for a persistent sense of stagnation and unfair distribution of national wealth and growth. Where are these anti-immigrant voters, after all? Mostly, in places where there are very few immigrants. Immigrants move to places they can get jobs (mostly the cities); the people in places with few immigrants are the economically and socially "left behind" in the current dominant socio-economic paradigm. And that's what really upsets them, as city financiers make their millions and buy up countryside mansions. Fuelling the fire is that the US right is pouring money and resources into Europe so they can fight their ideological war globally - the sums routing across the Atlantic from North America are shocking.
Fundamentally, people don't give a damn about gays, transexuals, feminism - or more strictly, not so much of damn they'll vote over it. They care that they have a job, can buy a house and support themselves and their family, have healthcare, are safe walking the streets. This is where the West is failing. Take France: it elects the right (Sarkozy) and it elects the left (Hollande), and nothing changes. If the mainstream left and right cannot sort these problems out, they'll start listening to the extremes. All across Europe, the far right has risen primarily through public unhappiness with the big issues of their country, not being told off for being homophobic.
Well yes, i did say: "At least on social issues. Economics wise it's a bit more difficult to say but european nations were already quite the centrists and still are. "Agema said:
There is definitely a frustration over the current economic situation. But quite ironically an undeserved one. If you take France it's a country with one of the strongest welfare states and yet it's there people protest every saturday. They aren't so much left behind as being fed unrealistic expectations. Expectations that for young people become even more unrealistic as France has become a stagnant economy due to a mix of its tax burden and powerful unions blocking everything at the mere sign of a reform.
And you're right those people don't care that much about gay rights, feminism or transexuals. But this is exactly what pushes them into the hands of the likes of Marine Le Pen. They feel left out by the classic left which seems to consider these topics more important than their misery. The same could be said about immigration, a complaint I can regularly see is "Why do we spend so much on immigrants/refugees while many of our own are still living in misery".
This is the failure of left wing advocacy, they managed to push the agenda further to the left for social issues people either don't care about or are against while failing to deliver on the economic side.
You're getting the causal arrow backwards. The ruling class wants to do away with the welfare state as much as it can, so the people must rise up to protect it. France's culture of protest is WHY they still have one of the strongest remaining welfare states (such as it is). It's not about being 'realistic' or 'economical' or some other such disingenuous garbage, it's purely about politics; distribution of wealth and the fact that the powerful want more.generals3 said: