[Politics] Dumb People Protest and Look Dumb

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Proud Boys are racists, white supremacists, misogynists, and beyond. They deserve to be protested against at every turn, even if they scream loudly.

They do and they should be -- non-violently, which is my point. That means turning away from and condemning black bloc tactics. Compare this week's news cycle with regards to Proud Boys protest to last. Last week Andy Ngo was lionized on corporate media for wandering into a crowd of Antifa expecting to get his ass whooped on camera, and getting what he wanted. This week we get to point and laugh at Tinder incels and Gavin McInnes losing a fight against a pair of plastic handcuffs.

I know which one I'd rather deal with. I'm also sick of people drawing false equivalencies and excluding middles against me for condemning the black bloc and violent counter-protest. This is a battle that can and should be won in the marketplace of ideas, that can only be lost in the streets, and I'm sick of people on my side picking the losing option; ergo, when a scenario happens demonstrative of what should be done and how, damned right I'm going to shout it from the mountaintops.

Hate speech is not free speech. Despite the fact that it's protected under the First Amendment, hate speech is inherently violent, because it infringes on people's rights to live their life under the very same Constitution that should protect them.

Honestly, as an American, having an American perspective and understanding America's track record of censorship, I find the continental conceptions of speech and expression repugnant and morally bankrupt. Over here, laws, rules, or policies permitting the regulation of "dangerous" or "offensive" speech have a far, far greater track record for leading to the suppression of voices dissenting or critical to those in power, and persecuting historically-disadvantaged persons, than they do of protecting them. Viewpoint- or content-based suppression of speech should never be a power afforded to governing entities. Ever.

Public or private sphere, lest anyone forget the oppression of LGBTQ's in Hays Code and Red Scare-era Hollywood.

It means that things can and should change for the safety and protection for all of a nation's people.

I can think of at least one famous quote by Benjamin Franklin that would serve as adequate clapback to this...

...and in the spirit of that, how about hijab bans? What's the compelling government interest in banning hijab? Niqab and burka bans, you could relatively easily make the argument...that is, in service to a surveillance state, so fuck that right there.

LGBT people literally fought back against abusive cops and it helped spark the LGBT rights movement.

You're emphasizing and idealizing the violence at the cost of all else. That's what's wrong with your argument. If you can't or won't understand how that's contrary to the reality and the spirit of the topic, that's on you. Least of all if you can't tell a difference between defending oneself against a physical assault by a dirty cop, and assaulting others on the street.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Your focus on Antifa shows your hand.

I think the problem is that nobody else actually seems to be focusing on them, which I compare to how you state people are ignoring Nazis step onto the stage. Antifa gets a free pass because... reasons.

If I may?

Antifa, at the very very VERY worst in my opinion... Is like a Gang. I personally don't believe them to be this bad, but if I had to say that they were trouble, it would be of the Blood and Crips variety.

You know, minus the gun running and drug selling. So ok, not like the Blood and the Crips. Like a low level gang that wants to rumble with the establishment. To me, yeah, that's barely a blip in what I'm concerned with politically.

However, Antifa isn't running for Congress, Senate, and Gubernatorial races on the Democratic ticket. But people who are supported by White Nationalists and Neo-Nazis are running. A good deal are losing... But some won [https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/11/7/18064670/white-supremacist-candidates-2018-midterm-elections].


If the worst Antifa has done are skrimishes, fine. They fought with a group like a gang. But they aren't trying to run for office like the White Nationalist movement constantly does.

I look at it like this; If I have a headache, a fresh bullet wound takes priority. I'm not going to stop at the drug store for some Ibuprofen on the way to the ER because the bullet wound is definitely a more pressing matter than the other.

And yes, the segment that can affect laws for citizens while also taking to the street and flexing muscle are more dangerous than the group that can only flex muscle.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

You know, minus the gun running...

I have my fair share of buddies in the RR/JBGC sphere, and there are definitely some dumbass practices. Mostly out of ignorance of transportation laws and best safety practices. One of them wanted me to come out on a handful of occasions, shoot and help teach, but...hell naw. Some people, just going around them with a gun in their hands is begging to get accidentally shot.

EDIT: Changed some wording because I realized after the fact more could be interpreted from my post than I intended.

 

[Shadowstar38]

People with dumb ideas voiced their opinions. People responded with criticism. No laws were broken, no rights were violated, and counter intuitive ideologies gained zero traction. This is a pretty good example of the system at play actually functioning correctly. Now if only antifa would take notice and stop fucking around we'd make some progress.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/3/20677645/antifa-portland-andy-ngo-proud-boys

Nazis still exist, bigotry still exists, nothing was solved or fixed.


Remember when Antifa shot up that synagogue? And that mosque? Oh wait, those were Republicans. Well, what about that time Antifa sent bombs out of a van decked out in pro-Hillary pictures? Oh wait, that was a Republican in a pro-Trump van.

If you actually want to condemn violent actions, condemn the actual terrorists. Your focus on Antifa shows your hand.

Awesome. We're right back to the BS first day back. I love it.

This event by itself is only meant to illustrate that you can combat ideologies you disagree with in a productive way. I didn't claim it solved the specific issues you choose to point out in your response.

My only reason for bringing up Antifa is because they serve as a counter-point for how you combat right-wing ideologies incorrectly. It served a purpose to the context of the conversation. So no. I did not "show my hand".

EDIT: It's also worth noting the weird whataboutry here. I pointed out X group of people are dicks and you managed to jump to "But group Y is a bigger issue". I didn't say anything about which group is worse, or which needs to be prioritized. Why are we making it a competition?

 

[Leg End]

If I may?

Of course! Love your opinions even if I didn't reply to one before R&P was kill.

Antifa, at the very very VERY worst in my opinion... Is like a Gang. I personally don't believe them to be this bad, but if I had to say that they were trouble, it would be of the Blood and Crips variety.

You know, minus the gun running and drug selling.

Issue is, they may actually be elevating their shit so they are actually arming themselves to do really fucked up shit.

So ok, not like the Blood and the Crips. Like a low level gang that wants to rumble with the establishment. To me, yeah, that's barely a blip in what I'm concerned with politically.

However, Antifa isn't running for Congress, Senate, and Gubernatorial races on the Democratic ticket. But people who are supported by White Nationalists and Neo-Nazis are running. A good deal are losing... But some won [https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/11/7/18064670/white-supremacist-candidates-2018-midterm-elections].

My issue is that while Antifa isn't directly running for anything that I am aware of, you have politicians praising them and supporting their actions. Though it seems that at least Biden has wised up and fired some shots at them. My problem is the free pass and that the problem is only getting worse. The shit they do isn't fucking cool, and even comparing them to small-time gangs means you're still comparing them to shitheads that murder people.

If the worst Antifa has done are skrimishes, fine. They fought with a group like a gang. But they aren't trying to run for office like the White Nationalist movement constantly does.

What if that changes? People are fighting Neo-Nazis, I'm fighting these shitheads that are getting a lot of free passes and hoping to stop them before we actually have them running for positions of power. Not too different from Saelune's own approach, actually.

I look at it like this; If I have a headache, a fresh bullet wound takes priority. I'm not going to stop at the drug store for some Ibuprofen on the way to the ER because the bullet wound is definitely a more pressing matter than the other.

From my view, it's less a small headache and more of a symptom of a serious concussion we're not aware of, and all too dangerous if we simply sleep on it. You have priority on skinheads? Cool. But please don't discount the very real dangers that these rioting shitheads pose and them getting away with it.

And yes, the segment that can affect laws for citizens while also taking to the street and flexing muscle are more dangerous than the group that can only flex muscle.

Same point as above. Getting big people in power to support their actions. They don't need to get people elected. They already have the support inside. These shitheads are already getting off with random acts of violence. We need to cut the head off early, and preferably we do it with every violent rioting fuck at the same time. Everybody wins because the people that want to be left alone don't have to deal with everyone wanting to put a boot on their throat, just in different colors and by different designers.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

People with dumb ideas voiced their opinions. People responded with criticism. No laws were broken, no rights were violated, and counter intuitive ideologies gained zero traction. This is a pretty good example of the system at play actually functioning correctly. Now if only antifa would take notice and stop fucking around we'd make some progress.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/3/20677645/antifa-portland-andy-ngo-proud-boys

I'd like to point out the number of instances where the Proud Boys crossed lines, came up to the counter protestors, and had to be escorted away by the cops.

I'd also like to point out that that's what the Proud Boys do in Portland.

Proud Boys instigate violence. Antifa's typically on the defensive, and everybody in the "liberal" media trips over their dick to both sides the issue.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

I'd like to point out the number of instances where the Proud Boys crossed lines, came up to the counter protestors, and had to be escorted away by the cops.

And, in the links I posted in the OP, USA Today has a report of black bloc protesters trying to charge, then outflank, a police barricade, then were busted up trying to erect barricades of their own.

WashPo has a fairly detailed account of the entire day, including a group of antifa harassing PB's at a bar and another spat in front of the DC Trump hotel. Then you had Joey Salads wandering off to get himself Andy Ngo'd, and getting extracted by the cops before Antifa could indulge him. I'll be the first to admit, Joey Salads deserves a solid ass whoopin' just on merit of being a dumpster-tier "pranktuber", forget the political shit for a second. Where I take exception, is that it's not a particularly savvy idea to give him one on camera in the middle of a political protest.

Daily Dot has an account of Antifa invading a Starbucks for some reason. But that's just funny.

Bottom line is, the cops were there and they actually did their job. That is, keeping two opposing sides of a protest who, left alone would start a riot, separate, and therefore preventing a riot. When it became clear to either side they weren't getting what they wanted, they went off to their own little corners and did their own thing.

Which is really the heart of the matter. PB's love to instigate, and all they have to do to accomplish that is show up. But if they can't fight, they have to talk, and when they have to talk they end up looking like completely inept jackasses.

The solution to this is so simple a grade schooler can figure it out: stop giving PB's what they want (riots), and start forcing them to do what they don't (talk). And yeah, that means telling the black bloc to take a hike. That shouldn't be any skin off any reasonable person's ass.

Or we can sit here and point fingers as to whose loop in the codependent cycle of violence matters more.

 

[Drathnoxis]

As Salvor Hardin once said "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."

 

[Satinavian]

A government should protect its people. Germany, for example, is pretty liberal with the types of speech it allows. Except one [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a], and I'm sure you already know which.

This is only partly true. The above paragraph is about unconstitutional organisations forbidding Nazi (and ISIL and evsn some Communist) symbols and propaganda.

Hate speech is an entirely different law, section 130.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung

And those two are, while the most important, not the only limitations of free speech in Germany. E.G. there is also stuff about non hate-speech personal insults.

 

[Trunkage]

As Salvor Hardin once said "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."

Those founding fathers were sure incompetent destroying property just because a king reduced a tax

 

[Casual Shinji]

As Salvor Hardin once said "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."

Wait, I though YouTube was the last refuge of the incompetent. ;D

 

[DarthCoercis]

*snip*

You screeched at me about how awful I was, and how much my generation sucked and wasn't worth shit, when all I wanted to do was share something that I loved growing up with the younger generations who'd missed it. You're the kind of person that the people I've spent my adult life fighting against point to when they need a "leftist" example.

[edit] I forgot the word "adult".

[edit 2] by the way, no "nazi" or "alt-right" person has ever spoken to me the way you have. Does that make them better people than you?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Um, ok, that was a big 2 pages there. But, yeah, to get things done you have to get stuck in, and sometimes, that means violence. Not all the time, and not at random, but violence is going to be part of the answer if you intend to win.

As an aside, I though Caitlyn Jenner really that that amazingly naive, privileged and/or stupid to think Trump supported LGBT rights, and finally woke up some time after he got to be PotUS.

 

[Saelune]

*snip*

You screeched at me about how awful I was, and how much my generation sucked and wasn't worth shit, when all I wanted to do was share something that I loved growing up with the younger generations who'd missed it. You're the kind of person that the people I've spent my adult life fighting against point to when they need a "leftist" example.

[edit] I forgot the word "adult".

[edit 2] by the way, no "nazi" or "alt-right" person has ever spoken to me the way you have. Does that make them better people than you?

https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1056499-How-do-I-share-the-things-that-helped-define-my-generation-with-the-younger-generations#24283008

Well, for one, realize that every generation is full of terrible people...and good people. Your generation is not 'the best'. One day my generation will be old and will blame the new young generation for our problems, even though our problems were mostly caused by past generations AND our own generation.


Good things are always being made, be it art, music, or any other entertainment. The problem is more how easy it is to find this. Finding good music is hard, but it is not because no one makes good music, it is just that good music is not popular.


Anyway, that is more general. However your topic seems a bit...Australian focused. I am not Australian.

I am sick and tired of people looking for excuses to hate me. This is what I said. I did not 'screech' at you, I made a point that each generation goes through the same as the previous, but instead you took that as a personal attack because you are so convinced that because I am left-wing, and you apparently are right-wing, that I could only be 'screeching' at you. But hey, good job representing 'your generation' as being easily offended by the next.

 

[Saelune]

Your focus on Antifa shows your hand.

I think the problem is that nobody else actually seems to be focusing on them, which I compare to how you state people are ignoring Nazis step onto the stage. Antifa gets a free pass because... reasons.

The government is controlled by the Right, and the Right keeps bitching about Antifa ALL THE TIME. Your statement here is just not true. Yes, paper cuts suck, but they are not as big a deal as LOSING AN ENTIRE ARM.

 

[Saelune]

Proud Boys are racists, white supremacists, misogynists, and beyond. They deserve to be protested against at every turn, even if they scream loudly.

They do and they should be -- non-violently, which is my point. That means turning away from and condemning black bloc tactics. Compare this week's news cycle with regards to Proud Boys protest to last. Last week Andy Ngo was lionized on corporate media for wandering into a crowd of Antifa expecting to get his ass whooped on camera, and getting what he wanted. This week we get to point and laugh at Tinder incels and Gavin McInnes losing a fight against a pair of plastic handcuffs.

I know which one I'd rather deal with. I'm also sick of people drawing false equivalencies and excluding middles against me for condemning the black bloc and violent counter-protest. This is a battle that can and should be won in the marketplace of ideas, that can only be lost in the streets, and I'm sick of people on my side picking the losing option; ergo, when a scenario happens demonstrative of what should be done and how, damned right I'm going to shout it from the mountaintops.

Hate speech is not free speech. Despite the fact that it's protected under the First Amendment, hate speech is inherently violent, because it infringes on people's rights to live their life under the very same Constitution that should protect them.

Honestly, as an American, having an American perspective and understanding America's track record of censorship, I find the continental conceptions of speech and expression repugnant and morally bankrupt. Over here, laws, rules, or policies permitting the regulation of "dangerous" or "offensive" speech have a far, far greater track record for leading to the suppression of voices dissenting or critical to those in power, and persecuting historically-disadvantaged persons, than they do of protecting them. Viewpoint- or content-based suppression of speech should never be a power afforded to governing entities. Ever.

Public or private sphere, lest anyone forget the oppression of LGBTQ's in Hays Code and Red Scare-era Hollywood.

It means that things can and should change for the safety and protection for all of a nation's people.

I can think of at least one famous quote by Benjamin Franklin that would serve as adequate clapback to this...

...and in the spirit of that, how about hijab bans? What's the compelling government interest in banning hijab? Niqab and burka bans, you could relatively easily make the argument...that is, in service to a surveillance state, so fuck that right there.

LGBT people literally fought back against abusive cops and it helped spark the LGBT rights movement.

You're emphasizing and idealizing the violence at the cost of all else. That's what's wrong with your argument. If you can't or won't understand how that's contrary to the reality and the spirit of the topic, that's on you. Least of all if you can't tell a difference between defending oneself against a physical assault by a dirty cop, and assaulting others on the street.

I am emphasizing the point that STANDING UP TO BULLIES is important, and that it is wrong to punish people for STANDING UP TO BULLIES!

 

[Saelune]

People with dumb ideas voiced their opinions. People responded with criticism. No laws were broken, no rights were violated, and counter intuitive ideologies gained zero traction. This is a pretty good example of the system at play actually functioning correctly. Now if only antifa would take notice and stop fucking around we'd make some progress.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/3/20677645/antifa-portland-andy-ngo-proud-boys

Nazis still exist, bigotry still exists, nothing was solved or fixed.


Remember when Antifa shot up that synagogue? And that mosque? Oh wait, those were Republicans. Well, what about that time Antifa sent bombs out of a van decked out in pro-Hillary pictures? Oh wait, that was a Republican in a pro-Trump van.

If you actually want to condemn violent actions, condemn the actual terrorists. Your focus on Antifa shows your hand.

Awesome. We're right back to the BS first day back. I love it.

This event by itself is only meant to illustrate that you can combat ideologies you disagree with in a productive way. I didn't claim it solved the specific issues you choose to point out in your response.

My only reason for bringing up Antifa is because they serve as a counter-point for how you combat right-wing ideologies incorrectly. It served a purpose to the context of the conversation. So no. I did not "show my hand".

EDIT: It's also worth noting the weird whataboutry here. I pointed out X group of people are dicks and you managed to jump to "But group Y is a bigger issue". I didn't say anything about which group is worse, or which needs to be prioritized. Why are we making it a competition?

Reminder 'ideology I disagree with' here being 'Kill all Jews, blacks, LGBT and disabled'. You are intentionally trying to turn THAT into 'just a different opinion'. That is intentionally manipulative and you know it. Everyone who does that to me, which is many and often, is trying to pretend that MURDERING MINORITIES 'is just a different opinion'.

 

[DarthCoercis]

*snip*

Did you not read what you wrote, or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't fit with the persona you're trying to project now?

 

[Silvanus]

Did you not read what you wrote, or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't fit with the persona you're trying to project now?

Uhrm, well, if that [https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1056499-How-do-I-share-the-things-that-helped-define-my-generation-with-the-younger-generations#24283008] was indeed what you were referring to, then what you wrote was obviously untrue.

 

[DarthCoercis]

*snip*

That is the edited after being questioned version.