[POLITICS] If Trump is Innocent, he should prove it

[Saelune]

I repeat again, YOU ARE WHAT YOU VOTE FOR! If you vote against LGBT rights, YOU ARE AGAINST LGBT RIGHTS. Its not complicated.

If the pro-LGBT rights candidate is also in favour of murdering all the Christians, I'll be voting against the LGBT rights candidate. Anyone who says that must mean I'm against LGBT rights can go take a long walk along a short pier.

So, of course it doesn't mean you are against LGBT rights. As Saelune said above, it does show that not murdering all Christians is more important than LGBT rights to you. Considering none of the pro-LGBT candidates are for murdering all Christians, the hyperbole doesn't really do anything but distract from the issue.

Not at all, Saelune initially claimed that if you voted against a candidate who's pro LGBT you're against LGBT. Such statement assumes that the reason you voted against that candidate is irrelevant. This includes the hypothetical scenario presented. For instance if someone were to vote against Hillary Clinton because they wanted to make clear to the DNC that they won't accept corporate stooges anymore, that is not showing an anti-LGBT stance. Its merely showing that you consider sending that message more important than voting pro LGBT.

Voting for Trump was voting for corporate stooges. His cabinet is almost entirely incompetent CEOs. I voted for LGBT-rights and against corporate stooges. Trump voters cant say the same. They do anyway, but they are wrong to do so.

 

[Saelune]

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

Because TheIronRuler is against LGBT-rights.

 

[CaitSeith]

I repeat again, YOU ARE WHAT YOU VOTE FOR! If you vote against LGBT rights, YOU ARE AGAINST LGBT RIGHTS. Its not complicated.

If the pro-LGBT rights candidate is also in favour of murdering all the Christians, I'll be voting against the LGBT rights candidate.

And that wasn't the case with Hilary (literally being in favour of murdering all the Christians). In fact, what exactly was what pushed people away? What quotes? Because I'm tired of speaking in hypotheticals, while the harm that Trump administration does is real and tangible.

 

[Kwak]

Secondly, transgendered soldiers are more susceptible to mental instability and more prone to suicide. Allowing them easy access to firearms is just irresponsible.

So you're a gun control advocate?

 

[TheIronRuler]

Secondly, transgendered soldiers are more susceptible to mental instability and more prone to suicide. Allowing them easy access to firearms is just irresponsible.

So you're a gun control advocate?

.
It's not a relevant topic in the society I live in. The discussion there regarding gun control revolves around tighter regulation and enforcement for security-forces, since there had been cases of security personnel murdering their wives and then committing suicide with the firearm they've taken home after their shift. There should be much more oversight to prevent that kind of thing (for example, making sure they don't sneak off after their shift with their firearm). Secondly there's also the issue of illegal weapons stockpiled and held in Arab population centers, and their frequent use in crime (quite similarly to the previous issue, in honor killings).

I'm more inclined towards stricter control, but as you may notice this is a no-brainer...

 

[Saelune]

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

.
Two off the top of my head. First is difficulties with facilities and unit cohesion. Transgendered soldiers will have it bad if they are found. It will undoubtedly make other soldiers uncomfortable in the shared facilities. It also marks them for harassment and rejection by soldiers from the unit. Secondly, transgendered soldiers are more susceptible to mental instability and more prone to suicide. Allowing them easy access to firearms is just irresponsible. Transforming genders is a very mentally challenging task, which can sometimes have long-term repercussions in terms of mental health issues... in short, they are more prone to suicide.

I see it as allowing them to get bullied and then kill themselves. I would rather they didn't experience that.
.

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

Because TheIronRuler is against LGBT-rights.

.
bEcAuSe tHeIrOnRuLeR Is aGaInSt lGbT-RiGhTs

I am sure people felt the same about ending segregation between races. 'Blacks should be separate for their own good'. Its a load of bigoted BS though.

I would point out that you're being uncivil by mocking me, but its only wrong to be uncivil when the left does it based on what I am often told.

 

[Saelune]

I repeat again, YOU ARE WHAT YOU VOTE FOR! If you vote against LGBT rights, YOU ARE AGAINST LGBT RIGHTS. Its not complicated.

If the pro-LGBT rights candidate is also in favour of murdering all the Christians, I'll be voting against the LGBT rights candidate.

And that wasn't the case with Hilary (literally being in favour of murdering all the Christians). In fact, what exactly was what pushed people away? What quotes? Because I'm tired of speaking in hypotheticals, while the harm that Trump administration does is real and tangible.

I will give Agema the benefit of the doubt that perhaps they were just blowing off some built up steam. Agema has shown to be pro-equal rights and very smart. I know they know Hillary got a lot of undeserved shit. They certainly have been decidedly anti-Trump too.

 

[TheIronRuler]

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

.
Two off the top of my head. First is difficulties with facilities and unit cohesion. Transgendered soldiers will have it bad if they are found. It will undoubtedly make other soldiers uncomfortable in the shared facilities. It also marks them for harassment and rejection by soldiers from the unit. Secondly, transgendered soldiers are more susceptible to mental instability and more prone to suicide. Allowing them easy access to firearms is just irresponsible. Transforming genders is a very mentally challenging task, which can sometimes have long-term repercussions in terms of mental health issues... in short, they are more prone to suicide.

I see it as allowing them to get bullied and then kill themselves. I would rather they didn't experience that.
.

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

Because TheIronRuler is against LGBT-rights.

.
bEcAuSe tHeIrOnRuLeR Is aGaInSt lGbT-RiGhTs

I am sure people felt the same about ending segregation between races. 'Blacks should be separate for their own good'. Its a load of bigoted BS though.

I would point out that you're being uncivil by mocking me, but its only wrong to be uncivil when the left does it based on what I am often told.

.
Read up on the conditions set for accepting transgendered citizens into service when it was legal. Address the argument. I hate arguing with you because you resort to racism arguments every single time without fail - this is no exception, as you've been quoted above.

edit: You're being uncivil for shitposting me and saying I don't care about rights of non-heterosexuals. I don't need you to speak for me, speak for yourself.

 

[CaitSeith]

I repeat again, YOU ARE WHAT YOU VOTE FOR! If you vote against LGBT rights, YOU ARE AGAINST LGBT RIGHTS. Its not complicated.

If the pro-LGBT rights candidate is also in favour of murdering all the Christians, I'll be voting against the LGBT rights candidate.

And that wasn't the case with Hilary (literally being in favour of murdering all the Christians). In fact, what exactly was what pushed people away? What quotes? Because I'm tired of speaking in hypotheticals, while the harm that Trump administration does is real and tangible.

I will give Agema the benefit of the doubt that perhaps they were just blowing off some built up steam. Agema has shown to be pro-equal rights and very smart. I know they know Hillary got a lot of undeserved shit. They certainly have been decidedly anti-Trump too.

If it looked like I wanted to give to put Agema on a hard spot, I apologize. My question is open to everyone. Maybe I should make my own thread with a more attractive title:

Hilary did nothing that made her supporters vote for Trump. Change my mind.

 

[Saelune]

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

.
Two off the top of my head. First is difficulties with facilities and unit cohesion. Transgendered soldiers will have it bad if they are found. It will undoubtedly make other soldiers uncomfortable in the shared facilities. It also marks them for harassment and rejection by soldiers from the unit. Secondly, transgendered soldiers are more susceptible to mental instability and more prone to suicide. Allowing them easy access to firearms is just irresponsible. Transforming genders is a very mentally challenging task, which can sometimes have long-term repercussions in terms of mental health issues... in short, they are more prone to suicide.

I see it as allowing them to get bullied and then kill themselves. I would rather they didn't experience that.
.

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

Because TheIronRuler is against LGBT-rights.

.
bEcAuSe tHeIrOnRuLeR Is aGaInSt lGbT-RiGhTs

I am sure people felt the same about ending segregation between races. 'Blacks should be separate for their own good'. Its a load of bigoted BS though.

I would point out that you're being uncivil by mocking me, but its only wrong to be uncivil when the left does it based on what I am often told.

.
Read up on the conditions set for accepting transgendered citizens into service when it was legal. Address the argument. I hate arguing with you because you resort to racism arguments every single time without fail - this is no exception, as you've been quoted above.

I am not resorting to racism arguments, I am pointing out that your views are anti-LGBT, or more specifically anti-Trans rights. You are by your own admission, opposed to the right of a transgendered person serving in the military. That is an objective fact that YOU need to justify. The problem with your so-called justification though is that it is overly broad and ignores all the context of trans rights and issues. Trans people would have way less mental problems if we weren't constantly oppressed and constantly put down for standing up for ourselves.

Instead of understanding how I might feel as a trans person, you put me down.


I dont resort to calling out bigotry, I just make it a habit to call it out. I didnt resort to it in the topic about creators owing fans, cause it was not relevant. It is absolutely relevant int the topic of LGBT rights.

Its not my fault that your views are what they are.

edit: You're being uncivil for shitposting me and saying I don't care about rights of non-heterosexuals. I don't need you to speak for me, speak for yourself.

I AM speaking for myself, by making it bluntly clear what your intentions are. I am tired of people trying to lie and mislead about their intentions.

 

[McElroy]

I repeat again, YOU ARE WHAT YOU VOTE FOR! If you vote against LGBT rights, YOU ARE AGAINST LGBT RIGHTS. Its not complicated.

If the pro-LGBT rights candidate is also in favour of murdering all the Christians, I'll be voting against the LGBT rights candidate. Anyone who says that must mean I'm against LGBT rights can go take a long walk along a short pier.

C'mon now. Similarly voting for anything else than the complete withdrawal of all US armed operations abroad makes you a killer because that's what you voted for.

With a similar train of thought in our Parliamentary election this April you would run into a dilemma: are you for the policies the party you voted will realistically put forward or for their politics as a whole if they somehow got 100% of the votes?

 

[TheIronRuler]

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

.
Two off the top of my head. First is difficulties with facilities and unit cohesion. Transgendered soldiers will have it bad if they are found. It will undoubtedly make other soldiers uncomfortable in the shared facilities. It also marks them for harassment and rejection by soldiers from the unit. Secondly, transgendered soldiers are more susceptible to mental instability and more prone to suicide. Allowing them easy access to firearms is just irresponsible. Transforming genders is a very mentally challenging task, which can sometimes have long-term repercussions in terms of mental health issues... in short, they are more prone to suicide.

I see it as allowing them to get bullied and then kill themselves. I would rather they didn't experience that.
.

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

Because TheIronRuler is against LGBT-rights.

.
bEcAuSe tHeIrOnRuLeR Is aGaInSt lGbT-RiGhTs

I am sure people felt the same about ending segregation between races. 'Blacks should be separate for their own good'. Its a load of bigoted BS though.

I would point out that you're being uncivil by mocking me, but its only wrong to be uncivil when the left does it based on what I am often told.

.
Read up on the conditions set for accepting transgendered citizens into service when it was legal. Address the argument. I hate arguing with you because you resort to racism arguments every single time without fail - this is no exception, as you've been quoted above.

I am not resorting to racism arguments, I am pointing out that your views are anti-LGBT, or more specifically anti-Trans rights. You are by your own admission, opposed to the right of a transgendered person serving in the military. That is an objective fact that YOU need to justify. The problem with your so-called justification though is that it is overly broad and ignores all the context of trans rights and issues. Trans people would have way less mental problems if we weren't constantly oppressed and constantly put down for standing up for ourselves.

Instead of understanding how I might feel as a trans person, you put me down.


I dont resort to calling out bigotry, I just make it a habit to call it out. I didnt resort to it in the topic about creators owing fans, cause it was not relevant. It is absolutely relevant int the topic of LGBT rights.

Its not my fault that your views are what they are.

.
This is a racism argument. Just because they are similar to you does not mean they are the same thing.

"I am sure people felt the same about ending segregation between races. 'Blacks should be separate for their own good'. Its a load of bigoted BS though."

You haven't asked me to elaborate or justify my claims, you've decided to call me out for being anti-LGBT. No discussion. Merely accusations. I can back up what I've written, and some of it from personal experience. I haven't even done so, and you already have problems with it. Overtly broad? Transgendered are much more susceptible to mental illness and succumb to suicide more than the general population. Their condition is very taxing on the mind. You don't want to talk context, all I've read from you is projecting your personal issues on this.
.
EDIT:

.I AM speaking for myself, by making it bluntly clear what your intentions are. I am tired of people trying to lie and mislead about their intentions.

.
Dafuq are my intentions you're reading into.

 

[Saelune]

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

.
Two off the top of my head. First is difficulties with facilities and unit cohesion. Transgendered soldiers will have it bad if they are found. It will undoubtedly make other soldiers uncomfortable in the shared facilities. It also marks them for harassment and rejection by soldiers from the unit. Secondly, transgendered soldiers are more susceptible to mental instability and more prone to suicide. Allowing them easy access to firearms is just irresponsible. Transforming genders is a very mentally challenging task, which can sometimes have long-term repercussions in terms of mental health issues... in short, they are more prone to suicide.

I see it as allowing them to get bullied and then kill themselves. I would rather they didn't experience that.
.

It's a good policy that transgendered are not eligible for military service.

Why?

Because TheIronRuler is against LGBT-rights.

.
bEcAuSe tHeIrOnRuLeR Is aGaInSt lGbT-RiGhTs

I am sure people felt the same about ending segregation between races. 'Blacks should be separate for their own good'. Its a load of bigoted BS though.

I would point out that you're being uncivil by mocking me, but its only wrong to be uncivil when the left does it based on what I am often told.

.
Read up on the conditions set for accepting transgendered citizens into service when it was legal. Address the argument. I hate arguing with you because you resort to racism arguments every single time without fail - this is no exception, as you've been quoted above.

I am not resorting to racism arguments, I am pointing out that your views are anti-LGBT, or more specifically anti-Trans rights. You are by your own admission, opposed to the right of a transgendered person serving in the military. That is an objective fact that YOU need to justify. The problem with your so-called justification though is that it is overly broad and ignores all the context of trans rights and issues. Trans people would have way less mental problems if we weren't constantly oppressed and constantly put down for standing up for ourselves.

Instead of understanding how I might feel as a trans person, you put me down.


I dont resort to calling out bigotry, I just make it a habit to call it out. I didnt resort to it in the topic about creators owing fans, cause it was not relevant. It is absolutely relevant int the topic of LGBT rights.

Its not my fault that your views are what they are.

.
This is a racism argument. Just because they are similar to you does not mean they are the same thing.

"I am sure people felt the same about ending segregation between races. 'Blacks should be separate for their own good'. Its a load of bigoted BS though."

You haven't asked me to elaborate or justify my claims, you've decided to call me out for being anti-LGBT. No discussion. Merely accusations. I can back up what I've written, and some of it from personal experience. I haven't even done so, and you already have problems with it. Overtly broad? Transgendered are much more susceptible to mental illness and succumb to suicide more than the general population. Their condition is very taxing on the mind. You don't want to talk context, all I've read from you is projecting your personal issues on this.
.
EDIT:

.I AM speaking for myself, by making it bluntly clear what your intentions are. I am tired of people trying to lie and mislead about their intentions.

.
Dafuq are my intentions you're reading into.

I don't need to formally ask you to justify it. If you want to prove me wrong, it is up to you to do that. You opened up with supporting kicking ALL trans people out of the military. Your first move was to speak against trans people's rights to equality. That is what YOU did. You don't even want to give trans people the chance to prove they can be fit to serve. You just want to blanket ban them. Same happened with women for a long time. Do you think women should not be allowed even the chance to serve in the military?

Being mad at me for pointing out what you said wont change that you said it.

 

[The Lunatic]

Citation needed. Though no one should be on the draft.

Hillary sided with the Democrats who are pro-LGBT, especially after Obama solidified that with pro-LGBT policies and saying while in office that he is pro-LGBT in no unclear words. But you don't care about that, and would not criticize Trump for the same thing even though he is desperately trying to appeal to the anti-LGBT Republicans while toting a defiled rainbow flag to virtue signal to LGBT people rather poorly.

Trump had every chance to aid the LGBT community, both when it was popular and unpopular, and at no point did he ever aid LGBT people, EVER.

Trump made Pence his Vice President and courted anti-LGBT Republicans. Trump's actions are decidedly anti-LGBT. And I know you know that.

Your argument is: You are who you vote for.
Hillary has a track record of being against LGBT rights and has no history of changing that for anything other than popularity.
As such, according to your logic, if you vote her, you yourself are against LGBT rights and will simply use the LGBT community as a shield to avoid unpopularity.
By your logic, everyone should have voted for third party candidates who were actually in favor of LGBT rights, why didn't you?

 

[Saelune]

Citation needed. Though no one should be on the draft.

Hillary sided with the Democrats who are pro-LGBT, especially after Obama solidified that with pro-LGBT policies and saying while in office that he is pro-LGBT in no unclear words. But you don't care about that, and would not criticize Trump for the same thing even though he is desperately trying to appeal to the anti-LGBT Republicans while toting a defiled rainbow flag to virtue signal to LGBT people rather poorly.

Trump had every chance to aid the LGBT community, both when it was popular and unpopular, and at no point did he ever aid LGBT people, EVER.

Trump made Pence his Vice President and courted anti-LGBT Republicans. Trump's actions are decidedly anti-LGBT. And I know you know that.

Your argument is: You are who you vote for.
Hillary has a track record of being against LGBT rights and has no history of changing that for anything other than popularity.
As such, according to your logic, if you vote her, you yourself are against LGBT rights and will simply use the LGBT community as a shield to avoid unpopularity.
By your logic, everyone should have voted for third party candidates who were actually in favor of LGBT rights, why didn't you?

Because Hillary voted for the pro-LGBT side, becoming pro-LGBT and never betrayed that. I voted for pro-LGBT Hillary.

Your argument is that Hillary is anti-LGBT, and Trump is pro-LGBT, but the facts do not support these claims, as their actions have proven the opposite of your claims, especially their actions over the last decade.

Feel free to give me a challenge though. These have been easy.

 

[The Lunatic]

Because Hillary voted for the pro-LGBT side, becoming pro-LGBT and never betrayed that. I voted for pro-LGBT Hillary.

Your argument is that Hillary is anti-LGBT, and Trump is pro-LGBT, but the facts do not support these claims, as their actions have proven the opposite of your claims, especially their actions over the last decade.

Feel free to give me a challenge though. These have been easy.

It's simply denying reality to not accept Hillary's history of being anti-LGBT.
I never said Trump was Pro-LGBT. Just that he has enacted a few things that are.

 

[Saelune]

Because Hillary voted for the pro-LGBT side, becoming pro-LGBT and never betrayed that. I voted for pro-LGBT Hillary.

Your argument is that Hillary is anti-LGBT, and Trump is pro-LGBT, but the facts do not support these claims, as their actions have proven the opposite of your claims, especially their actions over the last decade.

Feel free to give me a challenge though. These have been easy.

It's simply denying reality to not accept Hillary's history of being anti-LGBT.
I never said Trump was Pro-LGBT. Just that he has enacted a few things that are.

Denying reality? Right-wingers sure do like to project.

You're going to need to provide evidence to support your claims.

 

[TheIronRuler]

.
Except youre doing exactly that. Voting for who you are (a conservative) over voting for what you believe in (that people should be free to live how they want)

.
Allowing Transgendered to serve puts them and their fellow soldiers at risk and hurts the overall strength of the unit. In my nation's military, transgendered require very specific and special conditions for their healthy integration into military life. They are integrated, but their care is delicate and personal. I would prefer to save them the hardships they would endure during it. I do not think the US army is capable of handling this and I can easily imagine this doing more harm than good for the enlisted soldier and their unit.

I oppose lowering physical requirements for roles open to both genders because fewer women than men can withstand them. This is also why some roles are not open to both genders. Do not compromise the integrity and quality of the role for the sake of equality. This however does not mean that you could not create new roles for women to participate in, which for example exists with mixed infantry battalions. However they are designed to not be used in the front during warfare, in contrast to male-only infantry battalions, which would supposedly preform similarly.
.

.I don't need to formally ask you to justify it. If you want to prove me wrong, it is up to you to do that. You opened up with supporting kicking ALL trans people out of the military. Your first move was to speak against trans people's rights to equality. That is what YOU did. You don't even want to give trans people the chance to prove they can be fit to serve. You just want to blanket ban them. Same happened with women for a long time. Do you think women should not be allowed even the chance to serve in the military?

Being mad at me for pointing out what you said wont change that you said it.

.
You don't need to formally request whatever... I've made my claims.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662085/
There have been attempts to gauge the rate of suicide and attempted suicide in the transgender community through sex-change clinics monitoring the progress of their patients. The data cannot be scientifically conclusive because of the small sample size (not many people go on and preform sex-change operations, and transgendered make up less than .5% of the general population), but you can see that the rates of suicide and attempted suicide are much higher than the general population. There are many different factors which cause this. I can quote a relatively recent study regarding teenagers, but I don't think it's very relevant, if only to gauge the relative size of this phenomenon.

I can speak from personal experience that LGBT people will find common living spaces challenging. A childhood friend of mine would go on to serve in a very simple role because he could not stay in the living quarters (he was a homosexual). I've been to boot-camp with another trainee which was outed during the training, and it was not a good experience for him. He later transferred to a non-combat role as a fitness trainer. I haven't stayed in touch with him.

I'm frustrated at you, not mad. I'm not against you, I want to tell you my opinions because I'm interested in a discussion... You often shut me down without one.

 

[Saelune]

.
Except youre doing exactly that. Voting for who you are (a conservative) over voting for what you believe in (that people should be free to live how they want)

.
Allowing Transgendered to serve puts them and their fellow soldiers at risk and hurts the overall strength of the unit. In my nation's military, transgendered require very specific and special conditions for their healthy integration into military life. They are integrated, but their care is delicate and personal. I would prefer to save them the hardships they would endure during it. I do not think the US army is capable of handling this and I can easily imagine this doing more harm than good for the enlisted soldier and their unit.

I oppose lowering physical requirements for roles open to both genders because fewer women than men can withstand them. This is also why some roles are not open to both genders. Do not compromise the integrity and quality of the role for the sake of equality. This however does not mean that you could not create new roles for women to participate in, which for example exists with mixed infantry battalions. However they are designed to not be used in the front during warfare, in contrast to male-only infantry battalions, which would supposedly preform similarly.
.

.I don't need to formally ask you to justify it. If you want to prove me wrong, it is up to you to do that. You opened up with supporting kicking ALL trans people out of the military. Your first move was to speak against trans people's rights to equality. That is what YOU did. You don't even want to give trans people the chance to prove they can be fit to serve. You just want to blanket ban them. Same happened with women for a long time. Do you think women should not be allowed even the chance to serve in the military?

Being mad at me for pointing out what you said wont change that you said it.

.
You don't need to formally request whatever... I've made my claims.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662085/
There have been attempts to gauge the rate of suicide and attempted suicide in the transgender community through sex-change clinics monitoring the progress of their patients. The data cannot be scientifically conclusive because of the small sample size (not many people go on and preform sex-change operations, and transgendered make up less than .5% of the general population), but you can see that the rates of suicide and attempted suicide are much higher than the general population. There are many different factors which cause this. I can quote a relatively recent study regarding teenagers, but I don't think it's very relevant, if only to gauge the relative size of this phenomenon.

I can speak from personal experience that LGBT people will find common living spaces challenging. A childhood friend of mine would go on to serve in a very simple role because he could not stay in the living quarters (he was a homosexual). I've been to boot-camp with another trainee which was outed during the training, and it was not a good experience for him. He later transferred to a non-combat role as a fitness trainer. I haven't stayed in touch with him.

I'm frustrated at you, not mad. I'm not against you, I want to tell you my opinions because I'm interested in a discussion... You often shut me down without one.

A discussion? Why should I have a discussion with you? You believe that 100% of Trans people are automatically unworthy of serving in the military. You are the one unwilling to have a discussion.

You want to know why so many LGBT people end up in the military? Cause they are kicked out of their homes, they are fired from their jobs, abandoned and left with little to no support, the exact kind of people militaries, especially the US love to prey upon.

If you think people who cannot mentally handle service should not be allowed to serve, ok, but it should be on an individual by individual basis, not a blanket ban on all trans people.

You're against me and you're virtue signaling to pretend you arent.