[Politics] Trump and Concentration Camps

[tstorm823]

I'm.. .not saying that they are disregarding law to detain everyone caught. I literally stated as much before when I said that I was ok with Obama removing Criminals and turning back recently caught crossers. Even if I disagree with it, it is the law. No two ways about that.

The disregarding of law part comes from the mandate of Trump that this all has to be done now, now, now and it forces children to be in the processing center for more that 72 hours.

Look at it this way. A school is a place for education. It needs a specific ratio of teachers to students to have the system work correctly. And as Saelune and anyone else from the Gold Standard Tri-State Area (That one's for you, Schadrach [https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1057209-Runners-Up-you-prefer-to-the-Gold-Standards?page=2#24311830]) knows, that's not the case for New York City at all [https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20170921/riverdale/overcrowded-schools-nyc-class-size-matters].

Although built to be a school, these buildings become little more than day care centers, as it's been shown over and over again that overcrowding in schools affect a child's education [http://www.teachhub.com/classroom-overcrowding] to the point that it's questionable if they even had one worthy of the United States of America's ideals.

And there, we're talking about our children not getting enough supplies, handouts, and BOOKS to learn information. It's hard to look at a school and call it a school if children aren't being taught.

Much like it's easier to call these detention centers Concentration Centers because while it was intended for one function, choices on how to handle these families without any care of the facilities available makes them into Concentration Centers. Yes, if this was done in a more humane way, we would still have our moral issues but that is the law. However, due to one person's trying to appeal to voters, he's disregarding humanity and subjecting children to conditions that we would beat someone into a pulp if they did that for one of our family members.

Bleeding heart or The Strictest Conservative, that is a universal feeling. If you subject my younger family members to those conditions, there will be violence. I won't be flowery, I won't make a bombastic quote to show how powerful I'll be. There will be violence. I will most likely rightfully be arrested. But I won't be alone. You would do the same. Saelune. Trunkage. Zontar, where ever he is. Lil Devils X. CM156. AltnameJag. Ertheking. Worgen. Xprimentyl. All of us.

And just let someone say "Well, we had to expose your innocent family members to this because of something their parents did". It's still punishing the children for the parents' crimes. Unacceptable. The Punishment of the wrong-doers should not damage the innocents tied to it. And if you can't figure out how to do that with the resources at hand, hold off until you can. Because you can't have the moral high ground when you treat humans like this. Especially children. I will never budge on that.

Serious question: what do you mean by "hold off"? How does one hold off on detaining border crossers. We can't just decide to have fewer people cross illegally (though some would argue for a wall to do that), nor can we hold off on legal asylum applicants to get through the illegal ones faster without people crying foul about metering at the border.

These detention centers aren't filled with people who were caught by ICE, they have deportation orders ready. They aren't filled with asylum seekers who came through a port of entry, because those don't get detained. The detention centers are overflowing with recent border jumpers. The recent crossers you say it's ok to turn back are the people filling these centers. It isn't actually the law to turn people back if they crossed recently. That only happens if they waive their right to an immigration hearing. It's the policy of the United States to allow people on US soil to plead their case to stay before deporting them. That is the people in detention, that is the thing they are in detention waiting for. It's not like we catch people and stick them in a building for a couple months to make them sweat before deporting them anyway, they are waiting for an immigration hearing. Nor are we going out to round up illegal immigrants to fill these places deliberately, that's just how many people are jumping the border right now.

If we can process people faster, that'd be a great way to ease the overcrowding. But I don't know how we're supposed to hold off instead. To hold off on detaining people jumping the border (without being able to control how many people jump the border), we'd have to either deport people without hearing asylum claims or allow them freedom in the US before hearing their claims. I'm not sure which of those you would suggest we do. And like, you put a lot of this on Trump as though all we need to do is be less Trumpy and we'd go back to the way things were before Trump. I don't know if you know the details of what's happening at the southern border, but very recently the demographics of people coming to the US from the south has shifted dramatically from working age men trying to get under the table employment, now it's family units and young children who aren't even trying to dodge CBP because they want to plead for asylum. With or without Trump's policies, we were going to have a crisis at the border. Unaccompanied children are coming fast enough to overburden the system with or without separation policies. We were destined to need relief bills, and we certainly need reform.

But like, to extend your school analogy, because it's a good analogy, a school ceases to really be a school if it can't teach the children. I agree. If your school system is so overcrowded as to be unable to teach kids, that isn't reason to demonize schools and give up on them. The solution to that problem is more schools, more staffing, more support. It's not as though you can just hold off on educating some kids until the overcrowding is passed, you have to ramp up your program to keep pace with the amount of children to educate. If the asylum process is ceasing to function as a refuge for people due to overburden, you can't just hold off until the overburden subsides, you have to ramp up the program to keep pace with the people coming here. The solution is to improve processes, increase the courts, fund better facilities. You can't do that while calling them concentration camps. You can't say "well, what we really need is more concentration camps, and bigger!" As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

 

[CaitSeith]

You keep doing the things you claim you aren't doing.

You must just hate me for being a good person.

No one cares about what you are; just what you do.

 

[tstorm823]

You keep doing the things you claim you aren't doing.

You must just hate me for being a good person.

No one cares about what you are; just what you do.

In case it was missed, that was a riff off of an earlier comment. I do not actually think Saelune hates me for being a good person.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Serious question: what do you mean by "hold off"? How does one hold off on detaining border crossers. We can't just decide to have fewer people cross illegally (though some would argue for a wall to do that), nor can we hold off on legal asylum applicants to get through the illegal ones faster without people crying foul about metering at the border.

These detention centers aren't filled with people who were caught by ICE, they have deportation orders ready. They aren't filled with asylum seekers who came through a port of entry, because those don't get detained. The detention centers are overflowing with recent border jumpers. The recent crossers you say it's ok to turn back are the people filling these centers. It isn't actually the law to turn people back if they crossed recently. That only happens if they waive their right to an immigration hearing. It's the policy of the United States to allow people on US soil to plead their case to stay before deporting them. That is the people in detention, that is the thing they are in detention waiting for. It's not like we catch people and stick them in a building for a couple months to make them sweat before deporting them anyway, they are waiting for an immigration hearing. Nor are we going out to round up illegal immigrants to fill these places deliberately, that's just how many people are jumping the border right now.

If we can process people faster, that'd be a great way to ease the overcrowding. But I don't know how we're supposed to hold off instead. To hold off on detaining people jumping the border (without being able to control how many people jump the border), we'd have to either deport people without hearing asylum claims or allow them freedom in the US before hearing their claims. I'm not sure which of those you would suggest we do. And like, you put a lot of this on Trump as though all we need to do is be less Trumpy and we'd go back to the way things were before Trump. I don't know if you know the details of what's happening at the southern border, but very recently the demographics of people coming to the US from the south has shifted dramatically from working age men trying to get under the table employment, now it's family units and young children who aren't even trying to dodge CBP because they want to plead for asylum. With or without Trump's policies, we were going to have a crisis at the border. Unaccompanied children are coming fast enough to overburden the system with or without separation policies. We were destined to need relief bills, and we certainly need reform.

But like, to extend your school analogy, because it's a good analogy, a school ceases to really be a school if it can't teach the children. I agree. If your school system is so overcrowded as to be unable to teach kids, that isn't reason to demonize schools and give up on them. The solution to that problem is more schools, more staffing, more support. It's not as though you can just hold off on educating some kids until the overcrowding is passed, you have to ramp up your program to keep pace with the amount of children to educate. If the asylum process is ceasing to function as a refuge for people due to overburden, you can't just hold off until the overburden subsides, you have to ramp up the program to keep pace with the people coming here. The solution is to improve processes, increase the courts, fund better facilities. You can't do that while calling them concentration camps. You can't say "well, what we really need is more concentration camps, and bigger!" As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

If it were just people who entered here illegally, I wouldn't have that much to say legally. Again, it goes against my morals, but we're not talking about my morals. But even after following the rules that Trump's administration laid out, Asylum Seekers [https://www.propublica.org/article/asylum-seekers-that-followed-trump-rule-now-dont-qualify-because-of-new-trump-rule] waited for months to do everything legal just to be added to a list that probably bars them from future entry.

The Trump administration has long said that there?s a right way to seek asylum in the United States: Come to an official port of entry at the border, then invoke the right under U.S. law to humanitarian protection.

But now, thousands of people are being barred from the U.S. precisely because they followed those rules.

Under an administration policy issued last week, most migrants who?ve passed through a third country ? say, Mexico ? will not even be allowed to request asylum at official border crossings.

That includes thousands of asylum-seekers ? from countries like Cuba, Venezuela and Cameroon ? who were already waiting at Mexican border towns to gain entry to U.S. ports when the new rule took effect.

Because the Trump administration has strictly limited the number of asylum-seekers allowed to enter most of the US/Mexico border?s busiest ports each day, these migrants signed on to unofficial waitlists and spent months waiting to gain legal entry to the U.S. as asylum-seekers.

One little-noticed consequence of the new policy is that those who decided against entering the US illegally are now paying a price for having followed the rules. Had they simply crossed into the U.S. illegally when they arrived, they would have had their asylum claims heard under the rules in place at that time. But by choosing to wait to set foot on US soil and trigger their asylum rights, they?ll now be subjected to the new regulation once they do enter ? a rule which renders most of them ineligible.

Trump's Administration has done that. So I'm going to mention Trump.

DACA recipents did everything right. They followed the rules. And when once promised protection from a constantly flip-flopping Donald Trump and his administration... Trump ended DACA [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/05/donald-trump-dreamers-program-young-immigrants]. That affects 800,000 people who were following the laws.

ICE is going after them [https://www.thedailybeast.com/daca-recipient-illegally-arrested-held-by-ice-lawsuit]. It keeps happening [https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/5/21/18628337/daca-ice-chicago-detention-immigration-arrest-paula-hincapie-rendon-lutheran-school-theology]. And it probably won't stop, as it's been happening for a while [https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/d35dww/how-trumps-attempt-to-kill-daca-could-help-ice-deport-thousands-of-dreamers].

From Law-abiding to 'Here Illegally'. Creating more flow and Processing necessity as ICE scoops more people who has only known this country, who has studied and wanted to be something here.

Trump's Administration has done that. So I'm going to mention Trump.

I'll put everything on Trump because it's Trump that is guiding this ship. No one else. Because that increase you are talking about again comes from Trump's own words and actions. Here's the reality of the situation [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-fact-check-trumps-bad-guy-talk-belies-migrants-reality] and how it differs from the issues that Trump wants us to believe in.

I'm glad you like my School Analogy, because it's one that fits. Because if, say, all children have to have a mandatory education and all children are equal under the law... and a president goes "Lulz, just kidding. Totes Bigoted, y'all. We're going to use School Records to keep tabs on the poor and the minorities so we can track them and arrest them at our leisure", then it's no longer a school. It becomes a trap.

Just like thousands of people listened to this Administration, wanted to be in this country legally so they did what was told of them, and then that Administration turned on the loud speaker and said "Seekers, thank you for coming here and signing up your name and your details. It's been very helpful to us. We now know who you are, and we're going to use that information to make sure you'll never get into this country legally. Thanks for waiting those months while we got you all sorted out".

As many articles said, these people would have ironically had more chance for Asylum Seekers if they came to the country illegally. But their choice has ruined their chances because of one man changing the rules.

But, to answer your question... How to hold off? We shouldn't change the rules to create 800,000 more people to process. We shouldn't change the rules that leads to Military families who were protected now be subject to removal. We shouldn't be deporting Vets who fought for this country. He shouldn't deport the Iraqi Christians that voted for him [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/17/iraqi-christians-face-deportation-conned-trump], and put them in a situation where it is VASTLY dangerous for a Christian to be. Especially an Americanized one.

The short answer? Any number of ways.

 

[tstorm823]

But, to answer your question... How to hold off? We shouldn't change the rules to create 800,000 more people to process. We shouldn't change the rules that leads to Military families who were protected now be subject to removal. We shouldn't be deporting Vets who fought for this country. He shouldn't deport the Iraqi Christians that voted for him [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/17/iraqi-christians-face-deportation-conned-trump], and put them in a situation where it is VASTLY dangerous for a Christian to be. Especially an Americanized one.

The short answer? Any number of ways.

I agree, we shouldn't eliminate DACA and should even expand it in both the protections it offers and the people it's offered to. I agree, we shouldn't deport US veterans under any circumstances. I agree, we shouldn't deport religious minorities directly into religious persecution. But none of these things are connected to CBP detention centers. Actually, I take that back. I can imagine a situation where someone is deported unjustly and tries to sneak back into the US and ends up at a CBP detention center. But that wouldn't be normal, that's not a statistically significant thing if it's even happened at all. ICE picking up a DACA protected childhood arrival isn't burdening Border Patrol. People being wrongly deported to Iraq isn't sending minors walking across the desert to the US. You have perfectly valid grievances against Trump's immigration positions, but they aren't the topic at hand. The topic at hand is the initial claim that detention centers are "torture camps for children". And I can't agree to that. Firstly, because it's blatantly untrue. But more importantly because it's a sentiment that leads to calls for the elimination of CBP, an act that would lead to the tragic deaths of thousands of people.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

Well, yeah. And the sooner we shut them all down, the sooner we can get back to pretending undocumented immigrants don't exist when they quietly settle down into their lives of socioeconomic marginalization, underclass servant labor, and direly impoverished living conditions. Or at least, when we DuMp TrUmP 2o2o? the media will shut up about them, despite them almost certainly continuing to exist, and we can get back to pretending our shit doesn't stink. Just like:

Gitmo
Torture
CIA black sites
Drone strikes
Bombing countries we're not at war with
Engaging in global arms trade, including to terrorist and rogue states
Arming and training terrorist groups
Promoting Latin-American coups that cause refugee crises
Causing Latin-American market crashes that lead to refugee crises
Participating in and supporting blockades of humanitarian aid
The list goes on, but pretty sure I've made my point.

 

[Saelune]

As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

Well, yeah. And the sooner we shut them all down, the sooner we can get back to pretending undocumented immigrants don't exist when they quietly settle down into their lives of socioeconomic marginalization, underclass servant labor, and direly impoverished living conditions. Or at least, when we DuMp TrUmP 2o2o? the media will shut up about them, despite them almost certainly continuing to exist, and we can get back to pretending our shit doesn't stink. Just like:

Gitmo
Torture
CIA black sites
Drone strikes
Bombing countries we're not at war with
Engaging in global arms trade, including to terrorist and rogue states
Arming and training terrorist groups
Promoting Latin-American coups that cause refugee crises
Causing Latin-American market crashes that lead to refugee crises
Participating in and supporting blockades of humanitarian aid
The list goes on, but pretty sure I've made my point.

'We shouldn't fix problems cause other problems exist'?

 

[Saelune]

If children were dying in schools because of bad teachers, we should stop that. Hell, we should do something to stop all these school shootings. Oh wait, Republicans care more about guns than the lives of children, so I guess that is something consistent with them.

 

[tstorm823]

As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

Well, yeah. And the sooner we shut them all down, the sooner we can get back to pretending undocumented immigrants don't exist when they quietly settle down into their lives of socioeconomic marginalization, underclass servant labor, and direly impoverished living conditions. Or at least, when we DuMp TrUmP 2o2o? the media will shut up about them, despite them almost certainly continuing to exist, and we can get back to pretending our shit doesn't stink. Just like:

Gitmo
Torture
CIA black sites
Drone strikes
Bombing countries we're not at war with
Engaging in global arms trade, including to terrorist and rogue states
Arming and training terrorist groups
Promoting Latin-American coups that cause refugee crises
Causing Latin-American market crashes that lead to refugee crises
Participating in and supporting blockades of humanitarian aid
The list goes on, but pretty sure I've made my point.

'We shouldn't fix problems cause other problems exist'?

It's not a case of ignoring one problem because there are other problems. It's a case of not "solving" a problem in a way that creates way more.

A child sent on foot to get to America, as things are now, gets picked up by customs and border protection and has to suffer through the discomfort of group detention while their permanent home gets sorted out.

A child sent on foot to get to America, but in a world without CBP, is more likely to die of exposure in the wild or gets picked up by human traffickers and sold into sex slavery.

It's a case of getting rid of one issue by making way, way bigger ones. The intention of that list of issues isn't to say those things are more important. It's to say those are things that can't be blamed on a single politician or party, so the media and politicians ignore them because they can't make money if it's not within the team sport paradigm. The suggestion is that the many tragedies of migrants being alleviated by CBP would be ignored compared to problems with detention centers under CBP control because they can't blame one side for the problems of migrants from other countries, where they can blame Trump for detention centers.

 

[Baffle]

The list goes on, but pretty sure I've made my point.

I don't think you have, and I would consider it a personal favour if you'd continue this list (is 20 more items a reasonably request?), though I cannot 100% promise I'll open this thread again.

 

[Saelune]

As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

Well, yeah. And the sooner we shut them all down, the sooner we can get back to pretending undocumented immigrants don't exist when they quietly settle down into their lives of socioeconomic marginalization, underclass servant labor, and direly impoverished living conditions. Or at least, when we DuMp TrUmP 2o2o? the media will shut up about them, despite them almost certainly continuing to exist, and we can get back to pretending our shit doesn't stink. Just like:

Gitmo
Torture
CIA black sites
Drone strikes
Bombing countries we're not at war with
Engaging in global arms trade, including to terrorist and rogue states
Arming and training terrorist groups
Promoting Latin-American coups that cause refugee crises
Causing Latin-American market crashes that lead to refugee crises
Participating in and supporting blockades of humanitarian aid
The list goes on, but pretty sure I've made my point.

'We shouldn't fix problems cause other problems exist'?

It's not a case of ignoring one problem because there are other problems. It's a case of not "solving" a problem in a way that creates way more.

A child sent on foot to get to America, as things are now, gets picked up by customs and border protection and has to suffer through the discomfort of group detention while their permanent home gets sorted out.

A child sent on foot to get to America, but in a world without CBP, is more likely to die of exposure in the wild or gets picked up by human traffickers and sold into sex slavery.

It's a case of getting rid of one issue by making way, way bigger ones. The intention of that list of issues isn't to say those things are more important. It's to say those are things that can't be blamed on a single politician or party, so the media and politicians ignore them because they can't make money if it's not within the team sport paradigm. The suggestion is that the many tragedies of migrants being alleviated by CBP would be ignored compared to problems with detention centers under CBP control because they can't blame one side for the problems of migrants from other countries, where they can blame Trump for detention centers.

Ya know, if we fixed the police, most of these problems would also be less problematic.

Instead of treating all immigrants as guilty of being bad people inherently, why not let good cops who do good jobs deal with the actual 'bad hombres', on top of that, a reliable police force means we can work to them ya know, doing their jobs and stopping actual crime like said human trafficking.

But no, you want to let children die because you assume they are bad people right from the start.

Killing children should never be considered a 'solution'.

Id prefer completely open immigration and a reliable police force than concentration camps and thugs in blue.

Why is the options for these kids either torture in a death camp, or torture as a sex slave? Why not neither?

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

We shouldn't fix problems cause other problems exist?

"We" shouldn't be pretending problems only exist when someone we don't like is in office, pretending only those problems exist, and only in the form most politically expedient.

For example, I'm sure you're aware the "refugee caravan(s)" originated in Honduras, people fleeing violence and economic breakdown. I'm sure you're equally aware the violence and economic breakdown were thanks to the coup which removed Zelaya from office. And I'd bet cold, hard cash you're aware Zelaya was removed from office for being yet another in a sixty-year-long ling of legitimately-elected, left-wing Latin-American politicians who tried to help their people by redistributing wealth from the hands of a small group of landed and moneyed elite, who can trace their history of elitism through US-backed fruit companies straight to the era of Spanish colonialism.

And of course, this coup d'etat was openly and unashamedly supported by the Obama administration [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/18/honduras-america-foreign-policy-disgrace]. Not that this is the first country to have suffered the fate, nor has it certainly been the last if the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Venezuela is any indicator.

Suffice to say I have a little bit of a problem when people want to sawmill about Latin-American refugee crises, and immigration, without the first apparent idea why these issues keep cropping up, nor the apparent intellectual curiosity (or honesty) to ask why and find out for themselves. God forbid we as Americans do anything but slap the smallest-possible band-aid on a problem and memory hole the entire affair, when the US is the cause of the problems to begin with.

Because,

...if we fixed the police...

We don't actually have a "police" problem. At least, not in this case. We have a "corrupt politician" and "corporation" problem. Yes, in both parties, especially in this case, because if there's one thing our media can be counted upon to never, ever report honestly, it's American geopolitical malfeasance in Latin America. The only thing more shameful than Obama's policies towards Latin America, and Latin-Americans, is Trump's, and unless that is confronted directly and honestly, this shit's going to keep happening just as it has for the past sixty years.

Because we wouldn't have goddamn kids in goddamn concentration camps right now if Obama had kept it in his pants over Honduras, and if people like you listened to people like me ten years ago instead of calling us concern trolls, and actually paid attention to the bullshit that was being pulled in your name. End of story.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I agree, we shouldn't eliminate DACA and should even expand it in both the protections it offers and the people it's offered to. I agree, we shouldn't deport US veterans under any circumstances. I agree, we shouldn't deport religious minorities directly into religious persecution. But none of these things are connected to CBP detention centers. Actually, I take that back. I can imagine a situation where someone is deported unjustly and tries to sneak back into the US and ends up at a CBP detention center. But that wouldn't be normal, that's not a statistically significant thing if it's even happened at all. ICE picking up a DACA protected childhood arrival isn't burdening Border Patrol. People being wrongly deported to Iraq isn't sending minors walking across the desert to the US. You have perfectly valid grievances against Trump's immigration positions, but they aren't the topic at hand. The topic at hand is the initial claim that detention centers are "torture camps for children". And I can't agree to that. Firstly, because it's blatantly untrue. But more importantly because it's a sentiment that leads to calls for the elimination of CBP, an act that would lead to the tragic deaths of thousands of people.

This is important [https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2019/06/20/immigrant-detention-centers-us-mexico-border]

And you're right. People being wrongly deported to Iraq isn't sending minors walking across the desert to the US. It's just that the US are putting them in harsher conditions while separating them from their families.

Mulligan Sep?lveda: "When I visited in February there were still around 1,800 kids or 2,000 kids, and it was just so crowded that you can't even imagine where they would possibly hold more kids, but now it's close to 3,000 people apparently. There were rooms with 144 bunk beds and when you walked by the bunk beds you could barely get by. They're just shoulder-length apart. They separate siblings. If one sibling is 17, and the other is 13, they separate them on other sides of the facility, and they only see each other once a week. At times, they've used solitary confinement. It's a really tough place to be. In one instance, it was a trans youth, and they said it was for her own protection. I believe it was 10 days. Isolation included 10 days not leaving a room without a window. There's a fine line between protection and suffering.

"I think we've seen from the beginning that the Trump administration has used mistreatment as a a form of deterrence, and when that's the main plan then things like overcrowding and incredibly unsanitary conditions, the idea is that that will get back to people fleeing their countries and trying to come here, and that will work as a sort of metaphorical wall. ... It becomes this awful game of chicken where the government's just making conditions worse and worse and not caring about it, and immigrants are still coming because the conditions in their home country that are pushing them here have not changed."

Associated Press: "Doctors will conduct health checks at facility with preemie" ? "The teenage girl with pigtail braids was hunched over in a wheelchair and holding a bunched sweatshirt when an immigrant advocate met her at a crowded Border Patrol facility in Texas.

"She opened the sweatshirt and the advocate gasped. It was a tiny baby, born premature and held in detention instead of where the advocate believes the baby should have been ? at a hospital neonatal unit.

"'You look at this baby and there is no question that this baby should be in a tube with a heart monitor,' said Hope Frye, a volunteer with an immigrant advocacy group who travels the country visiting immigration facilities with children to make sure the facilities comply with federal guidelines."

"Frye and other advocates said the case highlights the poor conditions immigrants are held in after crossing the U.S.-Mexico border as the government deals with an unprecedented number of families and children arriving daily. They announced Friday that doctors would be able to do health assessments at that facility starting Saturday."

The Trump administration is facing growing complaints from migrants about severe overcrowding, meager food and other hardships at border holding centers, with some people at an encampment in El Paso being forced to sleep on the bare ground during dust storms.

The Homeland Security Department's internal watchdog says rotting food, moldy and dilapidated bathrooms and agency practices at immigration detention facilities may violate detainees? rights.

"The Office of Inspector General made unannounced visits to four facilities in California, Louisiana, Colorado and New Jersey between May and November of last year, according to a report published Thursday. The facilities together house about 5,000 detainees.

"In an Adelanto, California detention facility, inspectors found nooses in detainee cells, the segregation of certain detainees in an overly restrictive way and inadequate medical care, the report said.

"It comes as the Trump administration is managing a worsening problem at the U.S.-Mexico border, with a dramatic increase in the number of Central American migrants. While most are families who cannot be easily returned to their home countries, the number of single adults is also on the rise. Immigration officials are detaining an increasing number of single adults ? about 52,000 now ? but are funded for only 45,000. The administration has asked for $4.5 billion more for additional bed space."

A year after immigrant advocates made US authorities aware of poor medical and mental health care at a Colorado detention facility, conditions have only gotten worse, according to a new complaint filed Tuesday.

"The new administrative complaint, obtained by BuzzFeed News, was submitted to Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the Department of Homeland Security's Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties and Office of Inspector General. It detailed stories of immigrant detainees who received inconsistent medication, suffered delayed medical care, and faced threats of punitive segregation following suicide attempts.

"The supplemental complaint follows a similar one the American Immigration Council and American Immigration Lawyers Association submitted in June 2018 on behalf of immigrants detained at the Denver Contract Detention Facility (DCDF) in Aurora, Colorado, who endured 'pain, serious injury, or the risk of death.'"

You don't need to eliminate anything to fix it. Again, our school system is messed up. But we need it. We overhaul it. Patch it before it breaks.

Look, let's break it down. The naming of this horrible situation we find ourselves in is squabbling over nothing. Nothing. In my country, there are babies on dusty floors with little to eat, who can't see their families, and who need medical help... at the behest of my 'Government'.

Call it Disney Land for all I care. It's detestable. Call it Heaven and it's detestable. And if it's the law? Then change the fucking law. Law is supposed to be for the betterment of humanity. This isn't it. To have throngs of people callous to this treatment of children and families because it's legal means America officially rescinds it's claim to "The Home of the Free".

And even laughable still, "The Home of the Brave".

Scarily enough, people don't see this is the same kind of blind 'adherence to laws' that allowed for Slavery because it was legal to treat people like that. Humane treatment should triumph over all. That was an American ideal that made me proud.

This isn't that place any more.

 

[tstorm823]

Look, let's break it down. The naming of this horrible situation we find ourselves in is squabbling over nothing. Nothing. In my country, there are babies on dusty floors with little to eat, who can't see their families, and who need medical help... at the behest of my 'Government'.

No, that isn't true.

There are people on dusty floors. We'd like them to give more comfortable spaces, and we haven't. But we didn't rob them of comfort. We didn't order their joy taken away. We've just failed to help sufficiently. Failing to provide better accommodations is not putting people on dusty floors at the behest of the government.

There are people with little to eat. We'd like them to have more to eat. But we found them with nothing to eat. The failure to feed people more is not starving people at the behest of the government.

There are people who need medical attention. And through the detention centers, they will get that attention. Do you imagine if they weren't detained, there'd be a crowd of volunteer doctors waiting to give the kids check-ups and vaccines? No. And to characterize it as being in need of medical attention at the behest of the government is detestable. No, the US government didn't make these people need medical attention. Should we provide it for them? Yes, I believe so.

But they're in these circumstances at the behest of your government? No. No. Get that crap out of here. People are coming to this country for help. They are coming for refuge. And if we provide that insufficiently, that's a bad thing. But to act as though border patrol is the cause of the problems is completely and utterly insane. You are the people in the Incredibles who blamed the superheros for the damage done while saving people's lives.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Look, let's break it down. The naming of this horrible situation we find ourselves in is squabbling over nothing. Nothing. In my country, there are babies on dusty floors with little to eat, who can't see their families, and who need medical help... at the behest of my 'Government'.

No, that isn't true.

There are people on dusty floors. We'd like them to give more comfortable spaces, and we haven't. But we didn't rob them of comfort. We didn't order their joy taken away. We've just failed to help sufficiently. Failing to provide better accommodations is not putting people on dusty floors at the behest of the government.

There are people with little to eat. We'd like them to have more to eat. But we found them with nothing to eat. The failure to feed people more is not starving people at the behest of the government.

There are people who need medical attention. And through the detention centers, they will get that attention. Do you imagine if they weren't detained, there'd be a crowd of volunteer doctors waiting to give the kids check-ups and vaccines? No. And to characterize it as being in need of medical attention at the behest of the government is detestable. No, the US government didn't make these people need medical attention. Should we provide it for them? Yes, I believe so.

But they're in these circumstances at the behest of your government? No. No. Get that crap out of here. People are coming to this country for help. They are coming for refuge. And if we provide that insufficiently, that's a bad thing. But to act as though border patrol is the cause of the problems is completely and utterly insane. You are the people in the Incredibles who blamed the superheros for the damage done while saving people's lives.

Here [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/torture-facilities-immigrant-children-detention-dolly-lucio-sevier_n_5d11623fe4b07ae90da2393b]

Call these doctors and observers up who have been to one of these facilities. Tell them that they are lying about reporting seeing children sleeping on floors. Tell them that they are lying about the children reporting to them that they can't even wash their hands. Tell them they are lying about everything.

 

[Saelune]

We shouldn't fix problems cause other problems exist?

"We" shouldn't be pretending problems only exist when someone we don't like is in office, pretending only those problems exist, and only in the form most politically expedient.

For example, I'm sure you're aware the "refugee caravan(s)" originated in Honduras, people fleeing violence and economic breakdown. I'm sure you're equally aware the violence and economic breakdown were thanks to the coup which removed Zelaya from office. And I'd bet cold, hard cash you're aware Zelaya was removed from office for being yet another in a sixty-year-long ling of legitimately-elected, left-wing Latin-American politicians who tried to help their people by redistributing wealth from the hands of a small group of landed and moneyed elite, who can trace their history of elitism through US-backed fruit companies straight to the era of Spanish colonialism.

And of course, this coup d'etat was openly and unashamedly supported by the Obama administration [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/18/honduras-america-foreign-policy-disgrace]. Not that this is the first country to have suffered the fate, nor has it certainly been the last if the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Venezuela is any indicator.

Suffice to say I have a little bit of a problem when people want to sawmill about Latin-American refugee crises, and immigration, without the first apparent idea why these issues keep cropping up, nor the apparent intellectual curiosity (or honesty) to ask why and find out for themselves. God forbid we as Americans do anything but slap the smallest-possible band-aid on a problem and memory hole the entire affair, when the US is the cause of the problems to begin with.

Because,

...if we fixed the police...

We don't actually have a "police" problem. At least, not in this case. We have a "corrupt politician" and "corporation" problem. Yes, in both parties, especially in this case, because if there's one thing our media can be counted upon to never, ever report honestly, it's American geopolitical malfeasance in Latin America. The only thing more shameful than Obama's policies towards Latin America, and Latin-Americans, is Trump's, and unless that is confronted directly and honestly, this shit's going to keep happening just as it has for the past sixty years.

Because we wouldn't have goddamn kids in goddamn concentration camps right now if Obama had kept it in his pants over Honduras, and if people like you listened to people like me ten years ago instead of calling us concern trolls, and actually paid attention to the bullshit that was being pulled in your name. End of story.

Still sounds like you think we should not solve problems cause other problems exist.

Unlike Trump supporters, I don't condone evil just because of who does it.

Trump could be the hero who fixes Obama's problems. Instead he turns a backyard fire into a national park fire.

Basically all you are doing is going 'But Obama'.

 

[tstorm823]

Call these doctors and observers up who have been to one of these facilities. Tell them that they are lying about reporting seeing children sleeping on floors. Tell them that they are lying about the children reporting to them that they can't even wash their hands. Tell them they are lying about everything.

Person A: Ghosts kill people by giving them cancer!
Person B: Ghosts aren't killing people with cancer.
Person A: Are you saying cancer isn't deadly?
Person B: No, I'm saying there's no such thing as ghosts.
Person A: Look at all this scientific research about how terrible cancer is! That should convince you!

That's what we're doing right now. You're giving me information about how bad the conditions are, I'm not contesting that the conditions are bad. I'm contesting why the conditions are bad. They are bad because the people charged with holding these children are overburdened and underfunded by a surge of border crossing they can't possibly handle. They aren't bad because the US government has decided to capture and torture migrant children.

I'm not saying those people are lying about the conditions. I'm saying your understanding of why the conditions are that way is way off base.

 

[Saelune]

Call these doctors and observers up who have been to one of these facilities. Tell them that they are lying about reporting seeing children sleeping on floors. Tell them that they are lying about the children reporting to them that they can't even wash their hands. Tell them they are lying about everything.

Person A: Ghosts kill people by giving them cancer!
Person B: Ghosts aren't killing people with cancer.
Person A: Are you saying cancer isn't deadly?
Person B: No, I'm saying there's no such thing as ghosts.
Person A: Look at all this scientific research about how terrible cancer is! That should convince you!

That's what we're doing right now. You're giving me information about how bad the conditions are, I'm not contesting that the conditions are bad. I'm contesting why the conditions are bad. They are bad because the people charged with holding these children are overburdened and underfunded by a surge of border crossing they can't possibly handle. They aren't bad because the US government has decided to capture and torture migrant children.

I'm not saying those people are lying about the conditions. I'm saying your understanding of why the conditions are that way is way off base.

They are concentration camps. They are intentionally doing a bad job because they are racists who enjoy torturing children.

 

[Nedoras]

Call these doctors and observers up who have been to one of these facilities. Tell them that they are lying about reporting seeing children sleeping on floors. Tell them that they are lying about the children reporting to them that they can't even wash their hands. Tell them they are lying about everything.

Person A: Ghosts kill people by giving them cancer!
Person B: Ghosts aren't killing people with cancer.
Person A: Are you saying cancer isn't deadly?
Person B: No, I'm saying there's no such thing as ghosts.
Person A: Look at all this scientific research about how terrible cancer is! That should convince you!

That's what we're doing right now. You're giving me information about how bad the conditions are, I'm not contesting that the conditions are bad. I'm contesting why the conditions are bad. They are bad because the people charged with holding these children are overburdened and underfunded by a surge of border crossing they can't possibly handle. They aren't bad because the US government has decided to capture and torture migrant children.

I'm not saying those people are lying about the conditions. I'm saying your understanding of why the conditions are that way is way off base.

Are you being serious? The administration has openly stated that the purpose of these camps is to be a deterrent. They literally DID decide to make this policy. John Kelley literally was saying this out loud when he was in charge of this and still in the administration. They were arguing that they needed to be cruel as a warning. They've said this over and over awhile back and it's like no one remembers.

They have also refused any help, and funds are NOT being allocated for this. They could be, but they're not. There have been examples of facilities that are far from full, and instead of some of these people being sent there, they were sent to facilities that were already full. Medicine is being denied. Basic hygienic products are being denied. They went to COURT to argue they shouldn't have to supply them anything. That them sleeping on the concrete and being given nothing is clean n' safe n' whatnot. It's not that they don't have the capability, it's that THEY DON'T FUCKING WANT TO. The camps are run as inefficiently as possible, costing a stupid amount of money despite nothing being done. This whole crisis is manufactured. It's meant to be this way. Because, from the fucking start, it's supposed to be a warning. A deterrent. How the fuck could this deterrent be effective if it's not cruel?

 

[Seanchaidh]

You haven't give back a single bit of logic than No you're wrong. Trump can be a raging asshole, but the difference is he actually denounces terrorists. (unlike the squad.)

Trump is quite a big supporter of Israel and Saudi Arabia who routinely commit acts of terrorism. He uses 'terrorism' as a rhetorical bludgeon.

The Squad's foreign policy views are quite a bit more defensible than Trump's.