[Politics] Trump and Concentration Camps

[Saelune]

People still defending concentration camps and people tell me I overuse the term 'Nazi'.

 

[lastjustice]

Trump absolutely made it way worse than it was! Lets stop pretending that Trump hasnt made everything worse than it was, cause he has, consistently. Was it bad before? Yes. And now it is, as I must repeat, worse.

Everything...Including the economony and unemployment? Put an embassy in jerusalem, something presidents have been claiming they'd do for quite some time. He's actually getting stuff done, but sure let's claim everything is worse. You seem love hyperbole.

And for all the blame people want to shove onto Obama for this, Trump has made it a personal goal to undo every single thing Obama has his name on...except this, odd that. Oh right, cause he is a racist piece of garbage who delights on tormenting non-whites and children.

If Trump is everyone hates who's not white...why was he saying something on the behalf of Asap Rocky being stuck in Sweden?Surely he could just ignore this guy if he was antiminorities. Secondly why are plenty of minorities voting for him? If Trump truly were this monstreous individual he won't be president. This same country that voted for Obama twice. You think everyone just magically turned into racists in 4 years including the people you claim he hates.

Trump lacks tact, and says things I'd prefer he didn't. But people being insensitive, jerks or racist are not all same thing. Trump is definitely insensitive as he doesn't care if he upsets people who oppose him. He can be a jerk at times, but I not willing lump him into third catagory just because it suits someone's narrative to frame him that way. Someone can be one or two, or all 3 of these things, but the left likes lump as many people as possible into the 3rd catagory because makes it easier to dismiss them and not have engage them honestly in a debate. You have actually listen someone's points to properly counterpoint them...they don't like risk that.

We dont need to be actively denying these HUMANS basic needs like soap and toothpaste. That is Trump intentionally hurting people.

Months ago the democrats were the ones saying there is no crisis at the border and block additional spending on it. Now they claim there's an issue and placing all blame on Trump despite him asking for more support there repeatedly. Ever think there isn't enough funding to the facilities along the border is the reason basic needs are being met, not because people are messed up? Naah that's far too logical. Nope it's gotta be because evil rules this country. There's no doubt more spending is needed for these facilities.

We also dont need to be separating families. A couple of months might be 'ok' for an adult, but for a still developing child? Every single kid in these concentration camps will never fully recover, BECAUSE OF TRUMP.

You are such a bleeding heart. I'm guessing you ball your eyes out when see you one of those puppy ads playing in the arms of an angel too. You realize people normally get separated when they lock up people? That is standard procedure. When a guy who's a drug dealer gets locked up with his kids in the car, he gets separated from his kids. Yes families are heathier when they remain united, but people need respect the laws. These people need stop trying cross into this country illegally. We need people stop promising crap to people to come, as the media is presenting a messenge that coming here illegally is a viable option. This is counterproductive because just promoting people coming here and clogging up the system. This needs really be nipped in the bud.

Want to know what we should do? Give a crap. You're arguing with a socialist, ie someone who thinks on an ideological level that we all need to get over our selfish greed and help each other, from top to bottom, from the government level to the individual level.

I don't believe in parties(I lean to right, but I'm hardly a republican.) or reacting purely on emotions.(I've had things literally on fire and I don't panic.) I believe in gathering facts and holding true to ideals. I'm also realist.

Name a country where socialism has worked out. Every single one is not somewhere I'd want to live, as there's crazy taxes and it's just not a concept that works out in reality. Nothing is free. Look at Venezuela, an oil rich country, this where a crap ton of the refugees are coming from. People are eating animals in zoos. I would prefer not to replicate that.

Altruism is great, but the government taking additional money from us to give to someone else is not. There's nothing noble about it. If I decide to rally to a cause and help...that's my choice. I'm tired of the left's we're doing it for your own good stance, and forcing me to care. People have the right to say no for any reason. It's called free will, yet you insist on peace through tyranny. Might as well call it the Decepticon party. The government is like preservatives...you put alittle in things to keep it from spoiling. You too much in something it because tainted and unusable.

We dont need to shove them into concentration camps to detain them. Instead of wasting money on tanks and bombs and Trump's constant golf vacations, we could be spending it on giving them basic human living conditions.

So where should we be putting them? You didn't actually give an answer. You can't just take something away, and say it's solved. You're like that fish tank is too small,and just dump the fish on the ground and walk away and act like you handled it. It's complicated than that, or just throwing more money at the issue. Believe it or not money doesn't solve everything, or rich people wouldn't have useless or stupid kids. Effort, intelligence and caring go way further than just tossing money at stuff. Money is a tool, it is not an answer.

As for spending there's crap tons of waste in the government. Stupid amounts of it. As a self proclaimed cheap ass, it bothers me to no end. I want to reduce spending like crazy.(people in congress give themselves raises despite being millionaires in many cases.) I don't think national defense needs be quite as high as it is...but I wouldn't refer to as a waste. I'd rather get our nation out of unneeded conflicts as much as possible, and that would greatly reduce our spending. War is incredibly expensive.

We can also stop pretending that this country wasnt founded on illegal immigration. It is the utmost hypocrisy to decry immigrants in the US, period.

This is an intellectually bankrupt argument. You clearly don't understand no one can be here illegally is there's no country or formal government. There for no actions done by settlers was illegal. I'm sure the native americans (which I'm part Cherokee) weren't crazy about being displaced and killed by settlers, but in terms legality, no laws were broken. Noth America was a lawless land.

As for present day, there is a system of laws, and things are not the same as then. People in this country have borders and will fiercely defend them. We have laws we seek to uphold. There's nothing hypocritical about us enforcing a set of rules we all agree to live up, and are capable of upholding. I mean by your crazy logic no one who ever inhabits North America has any right to ever defend their borders because people invaded it. I should be able to walk into your house and go...no one owns the land and just take your stuff. See what a slippery slope of madness that is? Anarchy rarely works out well. Especially for the weak, which you claim be an advocate for.

We have plenty of KKK and Nazis who we should be kicking out if we really want to make room.

Not sure where you get this idea from, as being a racist in modern society doesn't gel with most people. Being openly racist will get you fired from your job, and ousted from most groups. Especially among white people, since they seem be riddled with this white guilt nonsense that they feel need prove how virtuous they are, and will punish racists on sight. Being a white racist is not socially viable these days. They may still exist but they're a dying breed, and in far fewer numbers than past generations. They aren't even 1% of the population. Again if America was just brimming with racists Obama never would been elected.

Would also help if this country had an accountable police force that was here to actually protect and serve the citizens. Then we could trust that the actual 'bad hombres' are the ones who get punished. I will take an illegal immigrant who doesnt run over innocent women with cars than legal citizens who are Nazis who murder innocent women with cars.

Sure there's bad cops..but again you seem think if there's fault with something, you need assign said blame to all of the same group. The number of people who die related to cops is like protesting lightning strikes or shark attacks. More people die to cheese burgers than guns, just saying heart diease kills people doesn't get clicks or ratings. Thankfully the left can't seem construct a coherent narrative or they might be dangerous. They go people with guns are bad....ok well it's good cops can protect us...oh those are bad too, I guess I need be able to protect myself then. So people should just be defenseless ...no one is going find that acceptable and blows their nonsense off. You can't push on both sides of the same argument and expect win, but the left is it's own counterforce.

These are people, and we need to start acting like it.

I'm not a bleeding heart, cheap theatrics don't work on me. There's a bad thing happening somewhere right this minute. Someone just died right as you read this. I'm not going be prompted to run around like a chicken with it's head off cut because something bad is happening. That is the path to madness. The SKY IS FALLING! Okay, let's focus on what we can do. If this actually bothers you that damn much...go down there and volunteer money and help. Stop posting here, and get off your butt. Lead by example. Otherwise save it. Don't act like you care if you can't or won't do that. Just being an armchair alarmist isn't helping anyone. It's easy complain and throw shade at Trump from comfort of your own home. If you're better than him..go prove it. If something bothered me that much, I'd be there. You'd see me posting videos of the conditions and what I was doing instead of crying wolf.

 

[Saelune]

Trump absolutely made it way worse than it was! Lets stop pretending that Trump hasnt made everything worse than it was, cause he has, consistently. Was it bad before? Yes. And now it is, as I must repeat, worse.

Everything...Including the economony and unemployment? Put an embassy in jerusalem, something presidents have been claiming they'd do for quite some time. He's actually getting stuff done, but sure let's claim everything is worse. You seem love hyperbole.

And for all the blame people want to shove onto Obama for this, Trump has made it a personal goal to undo every single thing Obama has his name on...except this, odd that. Oh right, cause he is a racist piece of garbage who delights on tormenting non-whites and children.

If Trump is everyone hates who's not white...why was he saying something on the behalf of Asap Rocky being stuck in Sweden?Surely he could just ignore this guy if he was antiminorities. Secondly why are plenty of minorities voting for him? If Trump truly were this monstreous individual he won't be president. This same country that voted for Obama twice. You think everyone just magically turned into racists in 4 years including the people you claim he hates.

Trump lacks tact, and says things I'd prefer he didn't. But people being insensitive, jerks or racist are not all same thing. Trump is definitely insensitive as he doesn't care if he upsets people who oppose him. He can be a jerk at times, but I not willing lump him into third catagory just because it suits someone's narrative to frame him that way. Someone can be one or two, or all 3 of these things, but the left likes lump as many people as possible into the 3rd catagory because makes it easier to dismiss them and not have engage them honestly in a debate. You have actually listen someone's points to properly counterpoint them...they don't like risk that.

We dont need to be actively denying these HUMANS basic needs like soap and toothpaste. That is Trump intentionally hurting people.

Months ago the democrats were the ones saying there is no crisis at the border and block additional spending on it. Now they claim there's an issue and placing all blame on Trump despite him asking for more support there repeatedly. Ever think there isn't enough funding to the facilities along the border is the reason basic needs are being met, not because people are messed up? Naah that's far too logical. Nope it's gotta be because evil rules this country. There's no doubt more spending is needed for these facilities.

We also dont need to be separating families. A couple of months might be 'ok' for an adult, but for a still developing child? Every single kid in these concentration camps will never fully recover, BECAUSE OF TRUMP.

You are such a bleeding heart. I'm guessing you ball your eyes out when see you one of those puppy ads playing in the arms of an angel too. You realize people normally get separated when they lock up people? That is standard procedure. When a guy who's a drug dealer gets locked up with his kids in the car, he gets separated from his kids. Yes families are heathier when they remain united, but people need respect the laws. These people need stop trying cross into this country illegally. We need people stop promising crap to people to come, as the media is presenting a messenge that coming here illegally is a viable option. This is counterproductive because just promoting people coming here and clogging up the system. This needs really be nipped in the bud.

Want to know what we should do? Give a crap. You're arguing with a socialist, ie someone who thinks on an ideological level that we all need to get over our selfish greed and help each other, from top to bottom, from the government level to the individual level.

I don't believe in parties(I lean to right, but I'm hardly a republican.) or reacting purely on emotions.(I've had things literally on fire and I don't panic.) I believe in gathering facts and holding true to ideals. I'm also realist.

Name a country where socialism has worked out. Every single one is not somewhere I'd want to live, as there's crazy taxes and it's just not a concept that works out in reality. Nothing is free. Look at Venezuela, an oil rich country, this where a crap ton of the refugees are coming from. People are eating animals in zoos. I would prefer not to replicate that.

Altruism is great, but the government taking additional money from us to give to someone else is not. There's nothing noble about it. If I decide to rally to a cause and help...that's my choice. I'm tired of the left's we're doing it for your own good stance, and forcing me to care. People have the right to say no for any reason. It's called free will, yet you insist on peace through tyranny. Might as well call it the Decepticon party. The government is like preservatives...you put alittle in things to keep it from spoiling. You too much in something it because tainted and unusable.

We dont need to shove them into concentration camps to detain them. Instead of wasting money on tanks and bombs and Trump's constant golf vacations, we could be spending it on giving them basic human living conditions.

So where should we be putting them? You didn't actually give an answer. You can't just take something away, and say it's solved. You're like that fish tank is too small,and just dump the fish on the ground and walk away and act like you handled it. It's complicated than that, or just throwing more money at the issue. Believe it or not money doesn't solve everything, or rich people wouldn't have useless or stupid kids. Effort, intelligence and caring go way further than just tossing money at stuff. Money is a tool, it is not an answer.

As for spending there's crap tons of waste in the government. Stupid amounts of it. As a self proclaimed cheap ass, it bothers me to no end. I want to reduce spending like crazy.(people in congress give themselves raises despite being millionaires in many cases.) I don't think national defense needs be quite as high as it is...but I wouldn't refer to as a waste. I'd rather get our nation out of unneeded conflicts as much as possible, and that would greatly reduce our spending. War is incredibly expensive.

We can also stop pretending that this country wasnt founded on illegal immigration. It is the utmost hypocrisy to decry immigrants in the US, period.

This is an intellectually bankrupt argument. You clearly don't understand no one can be here illegally is there's no country or formal government. There for no actions done by settlers was illegal. I'm sure the native americans (which I'm part Cherokee) weren't crazy about being displaced and killed by settlers, but in terms legality, no laws were broken. Noth America was a lawless land.

As for present day, there is a system of laws, and things are not the same as then. People in this country have borders and will fiercely defend them. We have laws we seek to uphold. There's nothing hypocritical about us enforcing a set of rules we all agree to live up, and are capable of upholding. I mean by your crazy logic no one who ever inhabits North America has any right to ever defend their borders because people invaded it. I should be able to walk into your house and go...no one owns the land and just take your stuff. See what a slippery slope of madness that is? Anarchy rarely works out well. Especially for the weak, which you claim be an advocate for.

We have plenty of KKK and Nazis who we should be kicking out if we really want to make room.

Not sure where you get this idea from, as being a racist in modern society doesn't gel with most people. Being openly racist will get you fired from your job, and ousted from most groups. Especially among white people, since they seem be riddled with this white guilt nonsense that they feel need prove how virtuous they are, and will punish racists on sight. Being a white racist is not socially viable these days. They may still exist but they're a dying breed, and in far fewer numbers than past generations. They aren't even 1% of the population. Again if America was just brimming with racists Obama never would been elected.

Would also help if this country had an accountable police force that was here to actually protect and serve the citizens. Then we could trust that the actual 'bad hombres' are the ones who get punished. I will take an illegal immigrant who doesnt run over innocent women with cars than legal citizens who are Nazis who murder innocent women with cars.

Sure there's bad cops..but again you seem think if there's fault with something, you need assign said blame to all of the same group. The number of people who die related to cops is like protesting lightning strikes or shark attacks. More people die to cheese burgers than guns, just saying heart diease kills people doesn't get clicks or ratings. Thankfully the left can't seem construct a coherent narrative or they might be dangerous. They go people with guns are bad....ok well it's good cops can protect us...oh those are bad too, I guess I need be able to protect myself then. So people should just be defenseless ...no one is going find that acceptable and blows their nonsense off. You can't push on both sides of the same argument and expect win, but the left is it's own counterforce.

These are people, and we need to start acting like it.

I'm not a bleeding heart, cheap theatrics don't work on me. There's a bad thing happening somewhere right this minute. Someone just died right as you read this. I'm not going be prompted to run around like a chicken with it's head off cut because something bad is happening. That is the path to madness. The SKY IS FALLING! Okay, let's focus on what we can do. If this actually bothers you that damn much...go down there and volunteer money and help. Stop posting here, and get off your butt. Lead by example. Otherwise save it. Don't act like you care if you can't or won't do that. Just being an armchair alarmist isn't helping anyone. It's easy complain and throw shade at Trump from comfort of your own home. If you're better than him..go prove it. If something bothered me that much, I'd be there. You'd see me posting videos of the conditions and what I was doing instead of crying wolf.

Yes, Trump has made literally everything worse. And yes, you are using a lot of bad arguments. Like, really really bad arguments. You call me hyperbolic while being hyperbolic, you use tokenism as an excuse for racism, you criticize the left for 'generalizing' when Trump does it ALL THE TIME.

Empathy is a good thing. Multiple times you use 'bleeding heart' as an insult. Its not. Caring is good. A lack of it is nothing to be proud of.

'I don't believe in parties' my ass. You have made it very clear with this post you are pro-Republican, anti-Democrat. I am tired of 'Im a moderate/centrist, but Republicans are always right but don't you dare claim I support them, despite how I only support them'.

Name a country where capitalism has worked. Name a country where despotism has worked. No country has done socialism. No, Venezuela is not socialism. And countries like Denmark are doing fine anyways.

You cant complain about the government taking money for use for others AND support Republicans OR Trump. You are 100% a hypocrite if you do. Or has Trump invited you on his golf trips?

Plenty of golf courses taking up wasted space.

If you hate immigrants, you have to hate colonialism. Otherwise you're a hypocrite. 'But no law existed yet' my ass. It wasnt their land to take, and they did not take it to work jobs for the Native Americans either. But hey, lets talk about how Texas was stolen from Mexico, oh right, that would break your narrative, wouldnt it?

Most of the country is racist. To pretend otherwise is ignoring facts. You did say you were a 'realist', didnt you?

So its ok for YOU to blame whole groups but not me? The cops are an organization that refuses to self-regulate.

I dont see you doing anything to help. Again, I question your claim of being a 'realist'.

 

[lastjustice]

Ok. So, Hi, I don't think we've met. I haven't seen you around posting that much. You might have seen me if you lurk. I'm Obsidian Jones, a pleasure.

I come and go as my from this site as I feel like it. I happen be seeing alot of politic debates raging online, so like a moth to flame here I am. I don't recall you, but I appreciate the greeting.

I warn you, I normally truck with people Like Saelune because that's my ************. Our opinions are normally in sync. So take that as you will.

I don't play favorites.You seems a bit more reasonable for whatever that's worth.

But what you've said in Bold is what makes me wonder if we're arguing in good faith.

Not sure what all this good faith business is in this thread...do I need post some collerate before posting in the thread heh? Either you accept I'm doing what I do in earnest...or you don't. If I just sought troll people I'd find more creative solutions than this.

In fact. If you're a fan of Trump... you should love Obama. Because he's done one of Trump's Promises light-years before Trump did. And as everyone wants to point out, in Record Numbers.

I did vote for Obama...once. I did not vote for him a second time as I had buyers remorse. I didn't vote for Trump(or Clinton), and fan is a strong term for my feelings on him. He's a mixed bag, but the left being so insane as of late I can't stand with them. They seem want to make policy let anyone in the country freely, and give away everything. They have platofrms of giving away freestuff not actual answers.

I'm a moderate who leans to right. I voted independent in past two elections since my state goes blue no matter what I do. Illinois hasn't been red since George Bush Sr got elected. I remember that because I was young and I was upset my state was red, because I wanted it to be blue because I like blue more when my teacher had us coloring the map for after the election. I also like the guy's name was Michael like mine, but that's the political depths of a small child.


Rather break everything else you said line by line, I will go for the abridged answer. Trump doesn't get everything correct. He not beyond criticism for me. My core point of comparing both presidents is that this mode of operation has been happening since the 90s. This didn't magically become this racially charged issue before, just the media is spinning it as such, and democrats who have illegals voting for them don't want to speak against it. These are same people who are not denounce the anittifa attacks. (Such as the squad.) I am not okay with law enforcement being potshooted by terrorists because the media is selling a farce about this sitation..it's extremely dangerous.

Here's a fun video about democrats saying most of what been said by the current president, just it's somehow racist now and against legal citizens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBOdt30ABJE (It was compiled by a trump supporter, so bare with it.)

I agreed the who we are deporting is definitely important. Not say people here illegally for any reason somehow get a pass. We need people who are here be legit, and we need work out something. I grew up in a heavily hispanic neighborhood so I say that as someone who has a family member who came here illegally. They was born in mexico and didn't realize till they got older they weren't here legally. They married into my family, I made sure help them get legit as I helped them get thru the process. I didn't wish see them get caught up with the system.

Ultimately I do feel for people who have been here for decades and were raised in the US as it's only country they've known.It's a complicated matter but again I'm all for making the process of people becoming legit made easier. I feel like just giving everyone status as citizens isn't the answer either otherwise there's no point in anyone going thru the proper channels. We send the messenge just take the matter into your own hands, we will eventually cave and give you citizenship. I do feel anyone who enlists as an illegal, should be taken as steps toward being legit, and their families. That seems like a fair exchange. So yeah that sucks if people armed forces families are being deported. Whether trump actually targetting these people, or what not I'm not going immediately buy into without proof or context, but I agree with the spirit of that concept shouldn't be happening if it is. As someone who's been enlisted, I can't imagine being in that situation, you're trying do your job and having worry about your family backhome. It's terrible for morale, so I don't see why any leader would want to engage in that.

I agree the situation needs be improved, but I'm not of the view it's all been from a place of hate.

 

[lastjustice]

Yes, Trump has made literally everything worse. And yes, you are using a lot of bad arguments. Like, really really bad arguments. You call me hyperbolic while being hyperbolic, you use tokenism as an excuse for racism, you criticize the left for 'generalizing' when Trump does it ALL THE TIME.

You haven't give back a single bit of logic than No you're wrong. Trump can be a raging asshole, but the difference is he actually denounces terrorists. (unlike the squad.)

Empathy is a good thing. Multiple times you use 'bleeding heart' as an insult. Its not. Caring is good. A lack of it is nothing to be proud of.

Yeah it's definitely an insult. I care...difference is I get off my ass and help people. Put my money where my mouth is. I don't let emotions run me, as I compartmentalize them from what I need to do. I have dealt with fires personally rather than wait for the fire department, and I could feel the heat on my face. I thought man this could blow up in my face and kill me, and just laughed to myself. I didn't want the fire rage out of control and harm my family. I'm afraid of heights, but I've gone up high and done things anyways. I don't believe you should ever let your emotions rule you. That's how you make stupid decisions without a plan.

'I don't believe in parties' my ass. You have made it very clear with this post you are pro-Republican, anti-Democrat. I am tired of 'Im a moderate/centrist, but Republicans are always right but don't you dare claim I support them, despite how I only support them'.

I voted for Obama and didn't vote for Trump. Figure that one out.One my coworkers said me, I've a liberal all my life. I didn't move, but the left kept walking and went somewhere I couldn't follow. If you think the current messenge and climate of the left is sane or healthy, you have another thing coming. There's so many people walking away from the left. Watch how black and gay conversatives get embraced by the tolerant left. They will get called all sorts of horrible names by people who claim have issue with that sort of behaviour. It's fine long as it's done to people you don't agree with.

Tell me the people who melted down on youtube in videos are being sane after Trump got elected. Or when they unfriended their friends and family on social media as reasonable. I'm sure there's clowns on the right, but majority seem be willing actually listen to out points of view in this current climate. I geniunely pity moderate left who wants no part of the extreme that has become the face of their party. America isn't about one way or one size fits all. The left needs get their crap together as I don't want to see a version of this where every bad idea the right has goes thru unopposed. It's checks and balances.

Name a country where capitalism has worked. Name a country where despotism has worked. No country has done socialism. No, Venezuela is not socialism. And countries like Denmark are doing fine anyways.

The USA is one of the greatest countries in the world. People wouldn't be trying come here if it was remotely as crappy as you make it out to be.

Denmark isn't a socialist country. Venezula is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzEPKrHalaY

You cant complain about the government taking money for use for others AND support Republicans OR Trump. You are 100% a hypocrite if you do. Or has Trump invited you on his golf trips?

Did you find it a massive issue when Obama put more mileage on Air force one than all 3 of the presidents before him? That guy played tons of golf on the government dime. He just was better at writing it off than Trump is. Yeah I'm going talk to this guy here...then later that afternoon playing golf.

Plenty of golf courses taking up wasted space.

What is your deal with golf? Did some guy chase you off one as a lil kid with a 5 iron and horribly scar you or something? People pay for them to exist, and they generate money. I don't see what's the axe to grind about it? Again you seem think if someone has something it's ok to take it from them. As long as these people pay for their property and services I see no reason it shouldn't exist.

If you hate immigrants, you have to hate colonialism. Otherwise you're a hypocrite. 'But no law existed yet' my ass. It wasnt their land to take, and they did not take it to work jobs for the Native Americans either. But hey, lets talk about how Texas was stolen from Mexico, oh right, that would break your narrative, wouldnt it?

Yup I totally hate immigrants...why I went to the matt to support a relative who married an illegal. But sure hate only concept you understand so don't bother thinking right? I'm part cherokee, but I really hate native americans. Here's fun lesson for you...history is full of brutal shit. People are really good at killing each other,(If there's aliens in space, they know stay heck away from us heh.) if any part of you're comfortable with you likely have issues. I accept that's who and what we are and who have been. I don't make excuses for it. We're trying be better when and where we can. History is a record of events not a rap sheet beat people over the head with till end of the time. The goal is to not repeat the worst part and learn from them.

Most of the country is racist. To pretend otherwise is ignoring facts. You did say you were a 'realist', didnt you?

Not really, but you want to see it that way, be my guest.If you ask black intellectuals what the number issue is for them? Their answer isn't systemic racism. It's the breaking up of the nuclear families (which entitlement programs play a major factor toward.), kids being raised with out a father. The statics prove this, unlike what you're saying.

Which this video if you want to see more about this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqVNPwsLNo

So its ok for YOU to blame whole groups but not me? The cops are an organization that refuses to self-regulate.

What are cops supposedly doing? Let me guess you're referring to minorities being shot, that's like protesting shark attacks and lightning strike, as that's high likely it is to be shot by a cop. Cops screw up, they're human beings, but they are not going around shooting people like the media would suggest. The facts don't agree with your narrative at all if that's what you're going for. Cops have had plenty of push back since the media jumping all over these instances, as there's all kinds of extra training and precautions being taken like body cams. I have cops in my family, so I have a finger on the pulse on how this plays out. They definitely have answer to what goes wrong.

I dont see you doing anything to help. Again, I question your claim of being a 'realist'.

I help the people I do with locally. Whether you see me or not I do not care. The people I help do. I'm the guy who pulls over help people stalled out or whatever situation I see that comes up. I do what I can.(and get out of the way when a professional shows up.) I don't spend my time getting worked up over things I have no intention of making a difference with.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Name a country where capitalism has worked. Name a country where despotism has worked. No country has done socialism. No, Venezuela is not socialism. And countries like Denmark are doing fine anyways.

Name dropping Denmark as an example of a good country is ironic in a thread like this. Denmark is the country that has instituted a law that allows the Danish state to confiscate valuables and money from refugees seeking asylum in Denmark, as a way for the refugees to "pay for their stay" (compare: Nazi-Germany confiscating Jewish valuables to "repossess everything the Jews stole"). Denmark is also the country that, just earlier this year, passed a law that allows them to deport any refugee that commits a crime in Denmark. Said deportation will occur after they've served their sentence on an island that will be re purposed to a refugee prison (to keep them out of proper Danish prisons). If the refugees can't return to their home country (due to war, persecution etc.) they will stay on the prison island indefinitely until they can be deported.

Denmark isn't quite in the same league as the US in terms of concentration camps for refugees, but it isn't due to any lack of effort on Denmark's part.

 

[Saelune]

Name a country where capitalism has worked. Name a country where despotism has worked. No country has done socialism. No, Venezuela is not socialism. And countries like Denmark are doing fine anyways.

Name dropping Denmark as an example of a good country is ironic in a thread like this. Denmark is the country that has instituted a law that allows the Danish state to confiscate valuables and money from refugees seeking asylum in Denmark, as a way for the refugees to "pay for their stay" (compare: Nazi-Germany confiscating Jewish valuables to "repossess everything the Jews stole"). Denmark is also the country that, just earlier this year, passed a law that allows them to deport any refugee that commits a crime in Denmark. Said deportation will occur after they've served their sentence on an island that will be re purposed to a refugee prison (to keep them out of proper Danish prisons). If the refugees can't return to their home country (due to war, persecution etc.) they will stay on the prison island indefinitely until they can be deported.

Denmark isn't quite in the same league as the US in terms of concentration camps for refugees, but it isn't due to any lack of effort on Denmark's part.

'But Europe is more left-wing than the US'. Fine, no country has socialism. Still proves my point that this BS argument of 'When has Socialism ever worked' is well, bullshit. No country has ever actually truly tried to give a fuck about its people, and that needs to change.

 

[Saelune]

Yes, Trump has made literally everything worse. And yes, you are using a lot of bad arguments. Like, really really bad arguments. You call me hyperbolic while being hyperbolic, you use tokenism as an excuse for racism, you criticize the left for 'generalizing' when Trump does it ALL THE TIME.

You haven't give back a single bit of logic than No you're wrong. Trump can be a raging asshole, but the difference is he actually denounces terrorists. (unlike the squad.)

Empathy is a good thing. Multiple times you use 'bleeding heart' as an insult. Its not. Caring is good. A lack of it is nothing to be proud of.

Yeah it's definitely an insult. I care...difference is I get off my ass and help people. Put my money where my mouth is. I don't let emotions run me, as I compartmentalize them from what I need to do. I have dealt with fires personally rather than wait for the fire department, and I could feel the heat on my face. I thought man this could blow up in my face and kill me, and just laughed to myself. I didn't want the fire rage out of control and harm my family. I'm afraid of heights, but I've gone up high and done things anyways. I don't believe you should ever let your emotions rule you. That's how you make stupid decisions without a plan.

'I don't believe in parties' my ass. You have made it very clear with this post you are pro-Republican, anti-Democrat. I am tired of 'Im a moderate/centrist, but Republicans are always right but don't you dare claim I support them, despite how I only support them'.

I voted for Obama and didn't vote for Trump. Figure that one out.One my coworkers said me, I've a liberal all my life. I didn't move, but the left kept walking and went somewhere I couldn't follow. If you think the current messenge and climate of the left is sane or healthy, you have another thing coming. There's so many people walking away from the left. Watch how black and gay conversatives get embraced by the tolerant left. They will get called all sorts of horrible names by people who claim have issue with that sort of behaviour. It's fine long as it's done to people you don't agree with.

Tell me the people who melted down on youtube in videos are being sane after Trump got elected. Or when they unfriended their friends and family on social media as reasonable. I'm sure there's clowns on the right, but majority seem be willing actually listen to out points of view in this current climate. I geniunely pity moderate left who wants no part of the extreme that has become the face of their party. America isn't about one way or one size fits all. The left needs get their crap together as I don't want to see a version of this where every bad idea the right has goes thru unopposed. It's checks and balances.

Name a country where capitalism has worked. Name a country where despotism has worked. No country has done socialism. No, Venezuela is not socialism. And countries like Denmark are doing fine anyways.

The USA is one of the greatest countries in the world. People wouldn't be trying come here if it was remotely as crappy as you make it out to be.

Denmark isn't a socialist country. Venezula is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzEPKrHalaY

You cant complain about the government taking money for use for others AND support Republicans OR Trump. You are 100% a hypocrite if you do. Or has Trump invited you on his golf trips?

Did you find it a massive issue when Obama put more mileage on Air force one than all 3 of the presidents before him? That guy played tons of golf on the government dime. He just was better at writing it off than Trump is. Yeah I'm going talk to this guy here...then later that afternoon playing golf.

Plenty of golf courses taking up wasted space.

What is your deal with golf? Did some guy chase you off one as a lil kid with a 5 iron and horribly scar you or something? People pay for them to exist, and they generate money. I don't see what's the axe to grind about it? Again you seem think if someone has something it's ok to take it from them. As long as these people pay for their property and services I see no reason it shouldn't exist.

If you hate immigrants, you have to hate colonialism. Otherwise you're a hypocrite. 'But no law existed yet' my ass. It wasnt their land to take, and they did not take it to work jobs for the Native Americans either. But hey, lets talk about how Texas was stolen from Mexico, oh right, that would break your narrative, wouldnt it?

Yup I totally hate immigrants...why I went to the matt to support a relative who married an illegal. But sure hate only concept you understand so don't bother thinking right? I'm part cherokee, but I really hate native americans. Here's fun lesson for you...history is full of brutal shit. People are really good at killing each other,(If there's aliens in space, they know stay heck away from us heh.) if any part of you're comfortable with you likely have issues. I accept that's who and what we are and who have been. I don't make excuses for it. We're trying be better when and where we can. History is a record of events not a rap sheet beat people over the head with till end of the time. The goal is to not repeat the worst part and learn from them.

Most of the country is racist. To pretend otherwise is ignoring facts. You did say you were a 'realist', didnt you?

Not really, but you want to see it that way, be my guest.If you ask black intellectuals what the number issue is for them? Their answer isn't systemic racism. It's the breaking up of the nuclear families (which entitlement programs play a major factor toward.), kids being raised with out a father. The statics prove this, unlike what you're saying.

Which this video if you want to see more about this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqVNPwsLNo

So its ok for YOU to blame whole groups but not me? The cops are an organization that refuses to self-regulate.

What are cops supposedly doing? Let me guess you're referring to minorities being shot, that's like protesting shark attacks and lightning strike, as that's high likely it is to be shot by a cop. Cops screw up, they're human beings, but they are not going around shooting people like the media would suggest. The facts don't agree with your narrative at all if that's what you're going for. Cops have had plenty of push back since the media jumping all over these instances, as there's all kinds of extra training and precautions being taken like body cams. I have cops in my family, so I have a finger on the pulse on how this plays out. They definitely have answer to what goes wrong.

I dont see you doing anything to help. Again, I question your claim of being a 'realist'.

I help the people I do with locally. Whether you see me or not I do not care. The people I help do. I'm the guy who pulls over help people stalled out or whatever situation I see that comes up. I do what I can.(and get out of the way when a professional shows up.) I don't spend my time getting worked up over things I have no intention of making a difference with.

You're making bad excuses and not arguing in good faith AT ALL. I have done this dog and pony show enough as is.

 

[Saelune]

Being a good person makes people hate you. That is all I have learned. Giving a fuck has made me tons of enemies, and that is fucked up. Why is caring so offensive to so many people?

 

[tstorm823]

Being a good person makes people hate you. That is all I have learned. Giving a fuck has made me tons of enemies, and that is fucked up. Why is caring so offensive to so many people?

Please, step back for a moment and consider what you'd think if I typed out a post here saying "being a good person makes people hate me".

 

[Saelune]

Being a good person makes people hate you. That is all I have learned. Giving a fuck has made me tons of enemies, and that is fucked up. Why is caring so offensive to so many people?

Please, step back for a moment and consider what you'd think if I typed out a post here saying "being a good person makes people hate me".

I don't defend concentration camps.

 

[tstorm823]

Being a good person makes people hate you. That is all I have learned. Giving a fuck has made me tons of enemies, and that is fucked up. Why is caring so offensive to so many people?

Please, step back for a moment and consider what you'd think if I typed out a post here saying "being a good person makes people hate me".

I don't defend concentration camps.

Right, you demonize the people who rescue migrants who would die in the wilderness.

 

[Saelune]

Being a good person makes people hate you. That is all I have learned. Giving a fuck has made me tons of enemies, and that is fucked up. Why is caring so offensive to so many people?

Please, step back for a moment and consider what you'd think if I typed out a post here saying "being a good person makes people hate me".

I don't defend concentration camps.

Right, you demonize the people who rescue migrants who would die in the wilderness.

You cant seriously be trying to spin CONCENTRATION CAMPS as saving people?

 

[tstorm823]

You cant seriously be trying to spin CONCENTRATION CAMPS as saving people?

I'm not spinning anything. CBP saves thousands of lives annually. Crossing the border through the barren wilderness is incredibly dangerous, so border patrol has a fleet of trained EMTs and professional rescuers to save people who would otherwise die daily.

As far as detention centers, you're thinking of it as though if people aren't detained, they are free to go as they please. That's not the options presented. The options are detained or deported. If you catch someone breaking the law to get into the country, you can't just say "well you're here now, do what you want". If you do that, there is effectively no border. If we don't have a border, we can't protect people from the violence they are fleeing. Without detention centers, our options are

A) Deport all the people we catch entering the country in between legal ports of entry, which would involve sending potential refugees back to the countries they are fleeing.
B) Allow people to move freely in America until their court date, which would involve allowing not valid refugees, potentially the people refugees are fleeing from, to enter the US and disappear until they commit some heinous crime.

So we made a 3rd option, detention centers to temporarily hold people who crossed over illegally but want to make a case to stay in America. That way asylum seekers get to stay in the United States away from the horrors they're fleeing (with food and shelter and medical attention), but also the US has the ability to keep violent individuals from entering the general population. It's a system designed to protect people, including those detained.

Yes, it needs reform, particularly to adapt to changing conditions over time. But if you think that any of these systems exist to hurt people, you are wrong. If we wanted to risk the lives of refugees, we wouldn't even hear their case after they broke our laws. If the goal was to punish illegal aliens, we wouldn't make them separate centers, we'd toss them into the regular prisons that are meant for punishment. I'm not defending concentration camps, I'm telling you that these aren't concentration camps.

 

[Saelune]

You cant seriously be trying to spin CONCENTRATION CAMPS as saving people?

I'm not spinning anything. CBP saves thousands of lives annually. Crossing the border through the barren wilderness is incredibly dangerous, so border patrol has a fleet of trained EMTs and professional rescuers to save people who would otherwise die daily.

As far as detention centers, you're thinking of it as though if people aren't detained, they are free to go as they please. That's not the options presented. The options are detained or deported. If you catch someone breaking the law to get into the country, you can't just say "well you're here now, do what you want". If you do that, there is effectively no border. If we don't have a border, we can't protect people from the violence they are fleeing. Without detention centers, our options are

A) Deport all the people we catch entering the country in between legal ports of entry, which would involve sending potential refugees back to the countries they are fleeing.
B) Allow people to move freely in America until their court date, which would involve allowing not valid refugees, potentially the people refugees are fleeing from, to enter the US and disappear until they commit some heinous crime.

So we made a 3rd option, detention centers to temporarily hold people who crossed over illegally but want to make a case to stay in America. That way asylum seekers get to stay in the United States away from the horrors they're fleeing (with food and shelter and medical attention), but also the US has the ability to keep violent individuals from entering the general population. It's a system designed to protect people, including those detained.

Yes, it needs reform, particularly to adapt to changing conditions over time. But if you think that any of these systems exist to hurt people, you are wrong. If we wanted to risk the lives of refugees, we wouldn't even hear their case after they broke our laws. If the goal was to punish illegal aliens, we wouldn't make them separate centers, we'd toss them into the regular prisons that are meant for punishment. I'm not defending concentration camps, I'm telling you that these aren't concentration camps.

You keep doing the things you claim you aren't doing.

 

[tstorm823]

You keep doing the things you claim you aren't doing.

You must just hate me for being a good person.

 

[Agema]

B) Allow people to move freely in America until their court date, which would involve allowing not valid refugees, potentially the people refugees are fleeing from, to enter the US and disappear until they commit some heinous crime.

Firstly, most not valid refugees who might disappear have no interest in committing heinous crime and almost certainly won't.

Secondly, the people refugees are fleeing from will generally be able to enter the USA at will, because people are normally fleeing oppressive governments, government agencies and officials, who by their nature tend not to have criminal records. They might be fleeing criminal organisations, but organised crime has lots of ways of crossing the border already without trying to sneak past the refugee system. One might note that those who are able to bully others out of their country are more inclined to stay in their own, because of course the system in that country is already working to their benefit.

 

[Saelune]

You keep doing the things you claim you aren't doing.

You must just hate me for being a good person.

You defend concentration camps.

 

[tstorm823]

Firstly, most not valid refugees who might disappear have no interest in committing heinous crime and almost certainly won't.

Secondly, the people refugees are fleeing from will generally be able to enter the USA at will, because people are normally fleeing oppressive governments, government agencies and officials, who by their nature tend not to have criminal records. They might be fleeing criminal organisations, but organised crime has lots of ways of crossing the border already without trying to sneak past the refugee system. One might note that those who are able to bully others out of their country are more inclined to stay in their own, because of course the system in that country is already working to their benefit.

It wouldn't be sneaking past the refugee system, it would be crossing illegally and then claiming to want refugee status to just continue on their way. Quick reminder, it's not refugees and asylum seekers being detained, it's specifically people who were caught jumping the border. You say they have easier ways to cross the border than game the refugee system, but people being detained are those who were caught using one of those easier ways to cross the border. If you say organized crime crosses over without touching the asylum program, I say "yes, exactly, that's who is detained. Border crossers." We just give them the opportunity to plead their case after being caught. If saying "yes, I would like a hearing" got you the right to move around the country freely, of course it would be abused. That's never been the option though, even in the catch and release era, they weren't offering that to people who even remotely fit the drug mule profile. The suggestion that detention centers are evil and shouldn't exist would initiate a new era of immigration law different than what we've experienced that would be exceptionally ripe for abuse.

But your idea of people fleeing oppressive governments isn't really the profile of the average asylum seekers currently. That's the classic idea of a refugee, but central americans by and large aren't fleeing government persecution, they are fleeing those crime organizations. That's a big reason to come all the way here in the first place: if someone is fleeing persecution from the government of Honduras, they just need to get out of Honduras. They come to the US because they need a nation that is capable and willing to protect them from international crime organizations. That's the issue with "first safe country" suggestions: I'd love if other countries had first safe country agreements to care for refugees before they get to the US, but only if that means they are actually safe refuge, and they currently aren't. They need to get further than just the next country over specifically cause they're fleeing violence that can follow them. they are fleeing to the US because the US is the best chance they have of not being followed. Border security is a not insignificant part of that.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Why are these people Overburdened? Trump's mandate. It seems like every independent voice who's gone there to see it has decried it as the worst conditions they have ever seen. Trump is refusing to let the U.N. see it, for good reason.

This is strictly done by the US Government. They have less Border Patrol Agents than Obama, so less people to actually help facilitate any real humane treatment. There is no room, but Trump still looks for ways to throw more people into the grinder. There is limited food, water, people aren't bathing, and the answer to this is to wait and deal with what you have at the moment.

And nope. Just continue. Do more. This isn't a horrible hurricane that there was no way to plan for. A man signed an act, ignored people who said it was unwise and that they didn't have the capability, ignored law and precedent, tries to pressure judges to make the process go faster, and just doesn't care that people are suffering under his order.

This is all done by his order.

Trump isn't against more resources for border security, Democrats are the people actively trying to defund CBP and ICE. Also, it's not disregarding law to detain everyone caught, it's disregarding law not to detain them all, so in a grand sense, it's Congress's fault for ignoring immigration laws for decades while knowing the issues.

But even disregarding that, I'm not disagreeing that there's people in tragic positions at the border. I'm not disagreeing with the idea that Trump's plans aren't helping. What I'm disagreeing with is the characterization of detention centers as concentration camps.

Like, you're acknowledging that if the burden was lower, the centers would be good. That if they had room and resources, there'd be acceptable conditions for people to stay for valid reasons. And we'd be right back to them not being "concentration camps". Like, if Trump took funding from a hospital, and people died as a result, go ahead and be mad at Trump, but people shouldn't start calling all hospitals Trump's gas chambers, cause that suggests the hospitals are evil tools made for evil purposes.

Detention centers are not concentration camps. That's the point I care about, because claiming that they are leads to the wrong solution.

I'm.. .not saying that they are disregarding law to detain everyone caught. I literally stated as much before when I said that I was ok with Obama removing Criminals and turning back recently caught crossers. Even if I disagree with it, it is the law. No two ways about that.

The disregarding of law part comes from the mandate of Trump that this all has to be done now, now, now and it forces children to be in the processing center for more that 72 hours.

Look at it this way. A school is a place for education. It needs a specific ratio of teachers to students to have the system work correctly. And as Saelune and anyone else from the Gold Standard Tri-State Area (That one's for you, Schadrach [https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1057209-Runners-Up-you-prefer-to-the-Gold-Standards?page=2#24311830]) knows, that's not the case for New York City at all [https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20170921/riverdale/overcrowded-schools-nyc-class-size-matters].

Although built to be a school, these buildings become little more than day care centers, as it's been shown over and over again that overcrowding in schools affect a child's education [http://www.teachhub.com/classroom-overcrowding] to the point that it's questionable if they even had one worthy of the United States of America's ideals.

And there, we're talking about our children not getting enough supplies, handouts, and BOOKS to learn information. It's hard to look at a school and call it a school if children aren't being taught.

Much like it's easier to call these detention centers Concentration Centers because while it was intended for one function, choices on how to handle these families without any care of the facilities available makes them into Concentration Centers. Yes, if this was done in a more humane way, we would still have our moral issues but that is the law. However, due to one person's trying to appeal to voters, he's disregarding humanity and subjecting children to conditions that we would beat someone into a pulp if they did that for one of our family members.

Bleeding heart or The Strictest Conservative, that is a universal feeling. If you subject my younger family members to those conditions, there will be violence. I won't be flowery, I won't make a bombastic quote to show how powerful I'll be. There will be violence. I will most likely rightfully be arrested. But I won't be alone. You would do the same. Saelune. Trunkage. Zontar, where ever he is. Lil Devils X. CM156. AltnameJag. Ertheking. Worgen. Xprimentyl. All of us.

And just let someone say "Well, we had to expose your innocent family members to this because of something their parents did". It's still punishing the children for the parents' crimes. Unacceptable. The Punishment of the wrong-doers should not damage the innocents tied to it. And if you can't figure out how to do that with the resources at hand, hold off until you can. Because you can't have the moral high ground when you treat humans like this. Especially children. I will never budge on that.

I come and go as my from this site as I feel like it. I happen be seeing alot of politic debates raging online, so like a moth to flame here I am. I don't recall you, but I appreciate the greeting.

Hey, I believe in community. I don't agree with everyone here, but I will respect everyone as much as they warrant. This is the first conversation we are having, so even if we disagree, I want to make sure it started off at the right foot.

If we get along, we get along. If we can't stand each other, we can't stand each other. Even if we don't spend another passing thought on each other, at least we started off as gentle-people.

I don't play favorites.You seems a bit more reasonable for whatever that's worth.

I know people don't believe me, but so is Saelune. It just gets really tiring to see all these things around you and be told "You're exaggerating" or "who cares?"

Not sure what all this good faith business is in this thread...do I need post some collerate before posting in the thread heh? Either you accept I'm doing what I do in earnest...or you don't. If I just sought troll people I'd find more creative solutions than this.

This is a valid point and it's something that I think we all could take some time to explain.

Good faith doesn't just have to be about reporting your feelings earnestly. But more over, it has to do with presenting the facts but also what do the facts mean. You're absolutely right that Obama deported more people than ever before. But those numbers actually fit with the narrative that most conservatives actually want. 91 percent of those who were deported were illegals who committed a crime. That's great. I think anyone on both sides gets that.

But people present the fact like it's some sort of Gotcha. That's the essence of why people keep on talking about good faith. Are we talking about what things mean, or are we just trying to point to wrong doing.

I don't know you, so I'm asking. There are people here who just say numbers, but never look into what they mean. A conversation with someone like that will probably not yield any understanding because a good deal of the time, they just want some factoid to add along with their views so they seem justified.

But in reading what you have to further say, I can't say that where you're coming from is from any malice. So I'm glad I inquired instead of assuming.

I did vote for Obama...once. I did not vote for him a second time as I had buyers remorse. I didn't vote for Trump(or Clinton), and fan is a strong term for my feelings on him. He's a mixed bag, but the left being so insane as of late I can't stand with them. They seem want to make policy let anyone in the country freely, and give away everything. They have platofrms of giving away freestuff not actual answers.

I'm a moderate who leans to right. I voted independent in past two elections since my state goes blue no matter what I do. Illinois hasn't been red since George Bush Sr got elected. I remember that because I was young and I was upset my state was red, because I wanted it to be blue because I like blue more when my teacher had us coloring the map for after the election. I also like the guy's name was Michael like mine, but that's the political depths of a small child.


Rather break everything else you said line by line, I will go for the abridged answer. Trump doesn't get everything correct. He not beyond criticism for me. My core point of comparing both presidents is that this mode of operation has been happening since the 90s. This didn't magically become this racially charged issue before, just the media is spinning it as such, and democrats who have illegals voting for them don't want to speak against it. These are same people who are not denounce the anittifa attacks. (Such as the squad.) I am not okay with law enforcement being potshooted by terrorists because the media is selling a farce about this sitation..it's extremely dangerous.

Here's a fun video about democrats saying most of what been said by the current president, just it's somehow racist now and against legal citizens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBOdt30ABJE (It was compiled by a trump supporter, so bare with it.)

I agreed the who we are deporting is definitely important. Not say people here illegally for any reason somehow get a pass. We need people who are here be legit, and we need work out something. I grew up in a heavily hispanic neighborhood so I say that as someone who has a family member who came here illegally. They was born in mexico and didn't realize till they got older they weren't here legally. They married into my family, I made sure help them get legit as I helped them get thru the process. I didn't wish see them get caught up with the system.

Ultimately I do feel for people who have been here for decades and were raised in the US as it's only country they've known.It's a complicated matter but again I'm all for making the process of people becoming legit made easier. I feel like just giving everyone status as citizens isn't the answer either otherwise there's no point in anyone going thru the proper channels. We send the messenge just take the matter into your own hands, we will eventually cave and give you citizenship. I do feel anyone who enlists as an illegal, should be taken as steps toward being legit, and their families. That seems like a fair exchange. So yeah that sucks if people armed forces families are being deported. Whether trump actually targetting these people, or what not I'm not going immediately buy into without proof or context, but I agree with the spirit of that concept shouldn't be happening if it is. As someone who's been enlisted, I can't imagine being in that situation, you're trying do your job and having worry about your family backhome. It's terrible for morale, so I don't see why any leader would want to engage in that.

I agree the situation needs be improved, but I'm not of the view it's all been from a place of hate.

First off, I don't have a problem with free stuff. I give to charity all the time.

I do think the stuff should actually help. If the programs lead to contributing members of society, there's no problem with that. If we're helping older people who have no one and nothing, I see no fault in that as well. Meals on Wheels, Education boosters like tutoring, Hell, we grow enough food that it could be dirt cheap for all... But Subsidies and all [https://www.ucsusa.org/our-work/food-agriculture/advance-sustainable-agriculture/subsidizing-waste]. Making sure that we have able citizens to take the reigns instead of people that have no idea what to do is always the best option in my mind.

Now, here's the thing. We have reports of average citizens questioning other people's nationality [https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/18/us/convenience-clerk-go-back-comment-trnd/index.html]. It's something of late that's become increasingly common [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/25/citing-trump-woman-in-video-calls-latino-man-rapist-animal-drug-dealer]. A sentiment that members of this population use to harass fellow citizens [https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2016/10/25/trump-harassment-hispanic-woman-lawsuit-coralville-coworkers/92742866/] no matter if they were born here or not. Some in the past [https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/5/16/17362712/white-man-lawyer-threatens-spanish-speaking-workers-new-york-aaron-schlossberg], Some very close [https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/racist-white-grandma-harasses-latinos-at-restaurant-for-the-crime-of-speaking-sp/268046460755423/]. And let's not forget, this is a game the entire family can play [https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/albertsamaha/kids-are-quoting-trump-to-bully-their-classmates]

Simply put, It's Robbing People of their voice [https://publicintegrity.org/federal-politics/rising-hate-drives-latinos-and-immigrants-into-silence/]. The freedom we as a people are supposed to hold most paramount. In fact, we have to have a map of all the incidents that people are now committing under the 'Gospel of Trump [https://americasvoice.org/trumphatemap/].'

Simply put, it's racial because people are making it racial. Again, Obama deported masses amount of illegals. But no one considered it racist because he didn't go for families that had roots here. He went for the criminals and turned back recent crossers (from Jan 2014, I believe). And that's fine. But most of all, He didn't hold rallies decrying immigrants and calling them criminals. Trump did.

Now, don't get me wrong. This kind of hate always happened in this country. But over my life time (80's baby), I've never head "Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama was right, you need to get the hell out of my country". They are saying it now because it's the rhetoric that Trump is spewing and it's one of the very reasons these people elected them in.

I'm with you. I would rather people who came in here had a better chance for success. What I would love is if we just could stop with the politicking and sit down to discuss this without parties. If we were just humans talking to humans. Immigrants are what this nation was built off of. If I'm honest, I rather people who are willing to risk their lives to be here than some rich kid who heard they could party with mommy and daddy's millions here. Those people who are willing to risk mutilation and death are people who will give to this country more than they take. Those are true citizens in the making.

Will we get there? I can hope.