[Politics] Trump, LBGT+ Ally

Saelune

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Silentpony said:
Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
evilthecat said:
So...I'm bigoted because I don't want adults to see children naked? Like I'm legitimately struggling here, bigoted means I'm against something that is considered good and I'm against adults having un-observed access to naked children...so that's a bad thing? That's the hill you're on?

Saelune said:
Just straight up, who do you think is a worse person, Blair White, a confirmed Trump support, or Jessica Yaniv an alleged, and legally investigated child at best predator, and worst molester/rapist?
'cause you seem to be of the bent that because Blair White supports Trump, nothing she says has value, ie Yaniv allegedly wants naked children, therefore Yaniv doesn't want naked children, all under the umbrella that Trump lied about his LGBTQ+XYZ support.
Clearly you have no desire to actually understand what me or evilthecat are saying.
No that's the problem here. I posted that my understanding of Blair White was she was anti trans-predators. And your response was that White is pro-Trump...as if that mattered to the conversation at hand, meaning opinions = -opinions
From what I've gathered your opinion is that Blair White is 100% evil for being pro-Trump, therefore anything she is against is automatically right. Blair White is against full grown adults interacting with naked children. Therefore adults interacting with naked children is okay by your opinion. That you feel, as a trans individual, to come to the either defense of a alleged child molester, or the attack of a Trump supporter, purely based on their political view? Implying that if either view was reversed, you would support it.
That if Jessica Yaniv hurt children but hated Trump you'd be okay with it, and it Blair White hated Trump but loved child pain you'd be against her
Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
Worgen said:
Silentpony said:
PsychedelicDiamond said:
Silentpony said:
Isn't Blair White that woman who is going around calling out Pedos using the trans identity to justify their actions?
Is that a thing that happens in any meaningful capacity?
Well to be fair even one person doing deserves to be called out. Having said that, apparently yes, there appear to be a number of people who have fetishized one or more aspect of trans culture, and unfortunately it involves children.
Is that actually a thing or is it her being a jerk? Cause I'm hesitant to take anything she does at face value considering shes one of the conservative pet minorities, unless she changed a bunch in the last couple years.
Well the one I know about is someone named Jessica Yaniv, male-female trans, who there are chat logs and screen shots of her asking little girls if they need help putting tampons in, do they get fully nude in locker rooms, and was caught putting up flyers for an all-girls, underage, topless pool party where it specifically said no guardians, parents or other adults were allowed. And this person Jessica is just going around saying its all well and good, she's Trans and that's just how they role.

Also Blair claims she got Jessica to admit on a phone call, recorded and all, that Jessica doxxed Blair, bought a gun, intends to use to and admitted to doing inappropriate things to little girls.

So while I'm sure Blair is a dick, is does seem like Jessica is a predator using the trans mantle as a defense and justification
Shitty people will use whatever advantage they can to be shitty. LGBT people are people too, and a lot of people suck. They don't suck BECAUSE they are LGBT though. Plenty of straight people who prey on children too, most of them cisgendered.

The problem here is blaming them for being trans, not blaming them for being just a shitty child predator.

If they want to attack child predators en masse, Epstein, his friends, the Catholic Church are all there. But no, their concern isn't protecting children, its attacking LGBT people.
Re-read my damn post.
 

Shadowstar38

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Saelune said:
Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
Worgen said:
Silentpony said:
PsychedelicDiamond said:
Silentpony said:
Isn't Blair White that woman who is going around calling out Pedos using the trans identity to justify their actions?
Is that a thing that happens in any meaningful capacity?
Well to be fair even one person doing deserves to be called out. Having said that, apparently yes, there appear to be a number of people who have fetishized one or more aspect of trans culture, and unfortunately it involves children.
Is that actually a thing or is it her being a jerk? Cause I'm hesitant to take anything she does at face value considering shes one of the conservative pet minorities, unless she changed a bunch in the last couple years.
Well the one I know about is someone named Jessica Yaniv, male-female trans, who there are chat logs and screen shots of her asking little girls if they need help putting tampons in, do they get fully nude in locker rooms, and was caught putting up flyers for an all-girls, underage, topless pool party where it specifically said no guardians, parents or other adults were allowed. And this person Jessica is just going around saying its all well and good, she's Trans and that's just how they role.

Also Blair claims she got Jessica to admit on a phone call, recorded and all, that Jessica doxxed Blair, bought a gun, intends to use to and admitted to doing inappropriate things to little girls.

So while I'm sure Blair is a dick, is does seem like Jessica is a predator using the trans mantle as a defense and justification
Shitty people will use whatever advantage they can to be shitty. LGBT people are people too, and a lot of people suck. They don't suck BECAUSE they are LGBT though. Plenty of straight people who prey on children too, most of them cisgendered.

The problem here is blaming them for being trans, not blaming them for being just a shitty child predator.

If they want to attack child predators en masse, Epstein, his friends, the Catholic Church are all there. But no, their concern isn't protecting children, its attacking LGBT people.
Let me repost this, the response that upset Silentpony so much. The one where he claims I blamed him. Where does it say I blame him? Not even lying, I intentionally reworded part of it so as to not sound like I was blaming them, cause I wasn't.
This person's main point was that, regardless of Blair, Yavin is a shit person.

So your response can be summed up as, to put it another way: "The reason I find Blair White to be untrustworthy is that her material targets specifically LGBT individuals while neglecting to cover stories about politically right leaning accussed predators. I conclude from this that she way have a Republican bias, and thus her entire platform looks like it is anti-LGBT propaganda"(This is me attempting to reprash and clarify your comments as best I can because it honestly seems like if you didn't mean to this to come off hostile then you expressed yourself rather poorly).

All that's really clear from this is that You're vehemently defending LGBT people while in the same breath taking a chance to bad mouth the usual right wing targets which could be interpreted by Silentpony as you trying to call him out. Because what you said, based on how it was phrased, had absolutely zero to do with the point he was making. And that's going to lead to confusion.

But, you know, fair enough. Giving you both the benefit of the doubt, chalk this initial thing to miscommunication.

Saelune said:
Me thinks doth protest too much, cause seriously dude, I wasn't blaming you (reconsidering now), I was blaming people like Blair White.
By this point, there's clearly been a miscommunication. And you choose this phrasing in particular to basically say "Maybe you're secretly a bigot and I rustled some feathers"(Maybe that's not what you're implying, but it sure as heck sounds like it).

Saelune said:
Can I take this as you going 'Oops, my bad'?
Well why the heck do you he'd be admitting fault her when nothing was cleared up? Was this rhetorical? Was this an honest question and you just didn't know what was going on? Were you being smug? Is he misunderstanding you? But benefit of the doubt and all

Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
What, no. I didn't make a bad. I didn't blame anyone for being trans, and I don't think Jessica Yaniv is a healthy person.
And Blair White is a bigot.
What? Once again, this has nothing to do with what he's trying to say. This looks like a non-sequitur. He's confused because these responses aren't making sense. Blair has nothing to do with Yavin being scum. Blair could be a mass murder in this scenario and it wouldn't make what Yavin is alleged to have done any less gross. These ideas aren't connecting.

So you're either needlessly combative(which would be presumptive on my part, as you're suggesting) or you have poor communication skills. which of the 2 is it?
 

Saelune

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Shadowstar38 said:
Saelune said:
Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
Worgen said:
Silentpony said:
PsychedelicDiamond said:
Silentpony said:
Isn't Blair White that woman who is going around calling out Pedos using the trans identity to justify their actions?
Is that a thing that happens in any meaningful capacity?
Well to be fair even one person doing deserves to be called out. Having said that, apparently yes, there appear to be a number of people who have fetishized one or more aspect of trans culture, and unfortunately it involves children.
Is that actually a thing or is it her being a jerk? Cause I'm hesitant to take anything she does at face value considering shes one of the conservative pet minorities, unless she changed a bunch in the last couple years.
Well the one I know about is someone named Jessica Yaniv, male-female trans, who there are chat logs and screen shots of her asking little girls if they need help putting tampons in, do they get fully nude in locker rooms, and was caught putting up flyers for an all-girls, underage, topless pool party where it specifically said no guardians, parents or other adults were allowed. And this person Jessica is just going around saying its all well and good, she's Trans and that's just how they role.

Also Blair claims she got Jessica to admit on a phone call, recorded and all, that Jessica doxxed Blair, bought a gun, intends to use to and admitted to doing inappropriate things to little girls.

So while I'm sure Blair is a dick, is does seem like Jessica is a predator using the trans mantle as a defense and justification
Shitty people will use whatever advantage they can to be shitty. LGBT people are people too, and a lot of people suck. They don't suck BECAUSE they are LGBT though. Plenty of straight people who prey on children too, most of them cisgendered.

The problem here is blaming them for being trans, not blaming them for being just a shitty child predator.

If they want to attack child predators en masse, Epstein, his friends, the Catholic Church are all there. But no, their concern isn't protecting children, its attacking LGBT people.
Let me repost this, the response that upset Silentpony so much. The one where he claims I blamed him. Where does it say I blame him? Not even lying, I intentionally reworded part of it so as to not sound like I was blaming them, cause I wasn't.
This person's main point was that, regardless of Blair, Yavin is a shit person.

So your response can be summed up as, to put it another way: "The reason I find Blair White to be untrustworthy is that her material targets specifically LGBT individuals while neglecting to cover stories about politically right leaning accussed predators. I conclude from this that she way have a Republican bias, and thus her entire platform looks like it is anti-LGBT propaganda"(This is me attempting to reprash and clarify your comments as best I can because it honestly seems like if you didn't mean to this to come off hostile then you expressed yourself rather poorly).

All that's really clear from this is that You're vehemently defending LGBT people while in the same breath taking a chance to bad mouth the usual right wing targets which could be interpreted by Silentpony as you trying to call him out. Because what you said, based on how it was phrased, had absolutely zero to do with the point he was making. And that's going to lead to confusion.

But, you know, fair enough. Giving you both the benefit of the doubt, chalk this initial thing to miscommunication.

Saelune said:
Me thinks doth protest too much, cause seriously dude, I wasn't blaming you (reconsidering now), I was blaming people like Blair White.
By this point, there's clearly been a miscommunication. And you choose this phrasing in particular to basically say "Maybe you're secretly a bigot and I rustled some feathers"(Maybe that's not what you're implying, but it sure as heck sounds like it).

Saelune said:
Can I take this as you going 'Oops, my bad'?
Well why the heck do you he'd be admitting fault her when nothing was cleared up? Was this rhetorical? Was this an honest question and you just didn't know what was going on? Were you being smug? Is he misunderstanding you? But benefit of the doubt and all

Saelune said:
Silentpony said:
What, no. I didn't make a bad. I didn't blame anyone for being trans, and I don't think Jessica Yaniv is a healthy person.
And Blair White is a bigot.
What? Once again, this has nothing to do with what he's trying to say. This looks like a non-sequitur. He's confused because these responses aren't making sense. Blair has nothing to do with Yavin being scum. Blair could be a mass murder in this scenario and it wouldn't make what Yavin is alleged to have done any less gross. These ideas aren't connecting.

So you're either needlessly combative(which would be presumptive on my part, as you're suggesting) or you have poor communication skills. which of the 2 is it?
I am saying that people like Blair White are being intentionally manipulative and are sinister in their motives. She wants to put it into people's heads that by being trans that Yaniv is a horrible person, rather than that Yaniv is a horrible person who also happens to be trans. It would be like if a Nazi pointed to a person who is greedy and Jewish and claimed that is proof all Jews are greedy, rather than it being an individual flaw of that single person.

I was genuinely surprised by Silentpony's reaction. As I said, I was intentionally trying to NOT accuse him. But I find his reaction to be suspicious and incriminating.

He overreacted and I want an apology for it. I wont get it, I never do, but he and you and Leg End owe me them. I was hoping Silentpony would realize their mistake, not double down.

I know what he was trying to say, but what he was trying to say was feeding into Blair White's previously mentioned manipulative intention, whether he meant to do it or not.

There is a 3rd option and that is you and Silentpony are doing a poor job of understanding me. Doesn't mean I am bad at communicating. Comprehension is a 2 way street.
 

Agema

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Saelune said:
He overreacted and I want an apology for it. I wont get it, I never do, but he and you and Leg End owe me them. I was hoping Silentpony would realize their mistake, not double down.
Well, the thing is with apologies that people tend to be highly resistant to apologising to people when they feel angry and defensive. Also, even if the person seeking an apology has not been aggressive in that particular instance, a history of poor relations will have much the same effect of making people much less willing to give ground.

A nice way to win an apology is to take a much more conciliatory line - offer them something up front, without sounding indignant and demanding. So something de-escalating like: "Okay, I get there's been a big misunderstanding here and I may have contributed to it and reacted badly, but what you said was quite hurtful to me." Otherwise, it gets into that huge big ego contest of not wanting to be the one to lose face by backing down first.

Of course, some people are total pricks and will take the de-escalation offer as "Yes, you're in the wrong and you're oversensitive", but they're the people who are never going to apologise to you under any circumstances (except, perhaps, threat of punishment.)
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
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Agema said:
Saelune said:
He overreacted and I want an apology for it. I wont get it, I never do, but he and you and Leg End owe me them. I was hoping Silentpony would realize their mistake, not double down.
Well, the thing is with apologies that people tend to be highly resistant to apologising to people when they feel angry and defensive. Also, even if the person seeking an apology has not been aggressive in that particular instance, a history of poor relations will have much the same effect of making people much less willing to give ground.

A nice way to win an apology is to take a much more conciliatory line - offer them something up front, without sounding indignant and demanding. So something de-escalating like: "Okay, I get there's been a big misunderstanding here and I may have contributed to it and reacted badly, but what you said was quite hurtful to me." Otherwise, it gets into that huge big ego contest of not wanting to be the one to lose face by backing down first.

Of course, some people are total pricks and will take the de-escalation offer as "Yes, you're in the wrong and you're oversensitive", but they're the people who are never going to apologise to you under any circumstances (except, perhaps, threat of punishment.)
Oh I assure you, I am not holding my breath here.
 

Silvanus

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Shadowstar38 said:
[
This person's main point was that, regardless of Blair, Yavin is a shit person.

So your response can be summed up as, to put it another way: "The reason I find Blair White to be untrustworthy is that her material targets specifically LGBT individuals while neglecting to cover stories about politically right leaning accussed predators. I conclude from this that she way have a Republican bias, and thus her entire platform looks like it is anti-LGBT propaganda"(This is me attempting to reprash and clarify your comments as best I can because it honestly seems like if you didn't mean to this to come off hostile then you expressed yourself rather poorly).

All that's really clear from this is that You're vehemently defending LGBT people while in the same breath taking a chance to bad mouth the usual right wing targets which could be interpreted by Silentpony as you trying to call him out. Because what you said, based on how it was phrased, had absolutely zero to do with the point he was making. And that's going to lead to confusion.
No, that's misrepresentation. Saelune has quite consistently said that Blaire uses instances such as this to attack entire demographics (which is true). That's what's objectionable, and that's what makes her untrustworthy.

White is the one making this about entire groups of people, and that deserves to be derided for the prejudiced drivel it is.
 

Shadowstar38

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Saelune said:
There is a 3rd option and that is you and Silentpony are doing a poor job of understanding me. Doesn't mean I am bad at communicating. Comprehension is a 2 way street.
Essentially, someone's fucking up(intentionally or unintentionally) and there's no agreement on who it is. So everything is at an em pass pretty much. GG I guess.
 

Saelune

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Shadowstar38 said:
Saelune said:
There is a 3rd option and that is you and Silentpony are doing a poor job of understanding me. Doesn't mean I am bad at communicating. Comprehension is a 2 way street.
Essentially, someone's fucking up(intentionally or unintentionally) and there's no agreement on who it is. So everything is at an em pass pretty much. GG I guess.
Its you and Silentpony. evilthecat and Silvanus see that, and you probably do too.
 

Shadowstar38

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Saelune said:
Shadowstar38 said:
Saelune said:
There is a 3rd option and that is you and Silentpony are doing a poor job of understanding me. Doesn't mean I am bad at communicating. Comprehension is a 2 way street.
Essentially, someone's fucking up(intentionally or unintentionally) and there's no agreement on who it is. So everything is at an em pass pretty much. GG I guess.
Its you and Silentpony. evilthecat and Silvanus see that, and you probably do too.
1)The quantity of people attesting to the accuracy of something doesn't make it fact(if that were true, you'd alter your views based on how many people have been mad at you in the past). 2) I spent an entire long ass post detailing why I don't see it that way. So the fact that you say "you probably do too" is another gaslighting tactic.
 

Smithnikov_v1legacy

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Just because White has pointed out some creepers does not erase that she's a bigot and still an overall shit person. It just means she's a shit person who has done a couple of commendable things.
 

Saelune

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Shadowstar38 said:
Saelune said:
Shadowstar38 said:
Saelune said:
There is a 3rd option and that is you and Silentpony are doing a poor job of understanding me. Doesn't mean I am bad at communicating. Comprehension is a 2 way street.
Essentially, someone's fucking up(intentionally or unintentionally) and there's no agreement on who it is. So everything is at an em pass pretty much. GG I guess.
Its you and Silentpony. evilthecat and Silvanus see that, and you probably do too.
1)The quantity of people attesting to the accuracy of something doesn't make it fact(if that were true, you'd alter your views based on how many people have been mad at you in the past). 2) I spent an entire long ass post detailing why I don't see it that way. So the fact that you say "you probably do too" is another gaslighting tactic.
I didn't accuse Silentpony when he got mad at me. Point to where I did. You're the one gaslighting.

You can actually go read my post, instead of just assuming I am wrong because its me saying it.

And its not about quantity, it is about quality. evilthecat and Silvanus are both smart, reasonable people who are fair and open minded.

You spent a post detailing lies. My post is not hidden, it is there for all to see. Go read it.
 

Shadowstar38

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Saelune said:
Go read it.
I know how to read. I already read it and re-read. I still disagree because you haven't convinced me of anything. Hence why I told you we're at an en pass. The fact that you keep telling me to go read it a gain is condescending. This is the thing I meant by needlessly combative.
 

Agema

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Shadowstar38 said:
I told you we're at an en pass.
It's impasse, incidentally; think impassable (although impasse itself is a direct borrowing from French).
 

Shadowstar38

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Agema said:
Shadowstar38 said:
I told you we're at an en pass.
It's impasse, incidentally; think impassable (although impasse itself is a direct borrowing from French).
The French language. The true enemy of the American people.(also, thank you. I know it looked off but didn't bother looking it up).
 

Terminal Blue

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Shadowstar38 said:
This person's main point was that, regardless of Blair, Yavin is a shit person.
So, what's the point of that point?

Because as it stands, and as you've expressed it, the point itself is a non sequitur. This thread is the Trump presidency trying to close off legal protections to trans people, despite "moderate" (emphasis on the quote) Trump supporters claimed he was going to be some kind of LGBT ally. Blair White came up in the context of that because she's a youtuber who is both conservative and trans, and because it might be interesting to see how she reconciles those two things (although, in my opinion, not very interesting). Then suddenly, this whole thing about her "calling out Pedos" came out of nowhere. Why? What's the point?

The "point" that Yavin is a shit person isn't controversial. Saelune acknowledged in her first response that people who abuse children are shitty whether they are cis or trans. So, why are you acting like it is controversial? What is the point of the point? What are you actually expecting us to agree with? Because it clearly isn't just that Yavin is a shit person..

Shadowstar38 said:
The reason I find Blair White to be untrustworthy is that her material targets specifically LGBT individuals while neglecting to cover stories about politically right leaning accussed predators.
Wait, I thought we were arguing about whether child predators were bad. I thought Blair was irrelevant to that and we weren't talking about Blair at all, and it's purely this abstract principle of whether child predation is bad or not. Why does establishing Blair's trustworthiness or otherwise even matter, if that was the point?

Shadowstar38 said:
All that's really clear from this is that You're vehemently defending LGBT people while in the same breath taking a chance to bad mouth the usual right wing targets which could be interpreted by Silentpony as you trying to call him out.
I see no defences of anyone.. unless you take Saelune's statement that people deserve to be judged on their actions and not because they are LGBT as some kind of "vehement defence" of LGBT people. I don't, because I think that's a common sense starting point to any reasonable discussion. Someone who sexually preys upon children is not worse or more noteworthy if they happen to be trans.

But, if "the point" here is that sexual predation is bad and we need to "call it out", then it is relevant what a person chooses to omit from their calling out. If you support Trump despite the fact that Trump is an admitted sexual predator, was close friends with a convicted child rapist and attended numerous parties with underage sex workers, then devote huge effort to calling out a random transwoman for being a "shit person", that says something about your actual commitment to the general principle that sexual predation is bad (which remember, is the supposed "point" here). None of us have defended Yaniv, or child predation. We are pointing out an inconsistency in who gets "called out" for these things which belies the claim that this is just about opposing sexual predation in all its forms. It clearly isn't. So again, what is it the point of the point?

Shadowstar38 said:
So the fact that you say "you probably do too" is another gaslighting tactic.
Serious question, what do you think gaslighting actually is?

Bear in mind, you're talking to trans/GNC people. Being gaslit is a pretty universal part of our experience.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Silentpony said:
Saelune said:
No one ever said any of that dude! Literally no one in this thread, nor the other one, ever said "Damn Jessica, I knew Trans were just pedophiles this whole time" Literally what I, others, and Blair White have been saying is Jessica Yaniv may or may not be trans(White says she is not, and I have no gauge one way or the other) and is using the trans identity as a literal justification for their predatory behavior. Yaniv is on record saying the reason she wants to see children naked and help little girls with tampons and pads is because she's trans, and that's what trans means.
And from the few videos of Blair white I watched she specifically says no, that is not what trans means, Yaniv is a "Period fetishist and is targeting children under the guise of being a transgender activist"

Look you can hate Blair for her politics, and I certainly don't agree with her support of Trump, and I will admit I legitimately didn't know she did 'cause I've only seen her Yaniv videos, but that is not an excuse to protect someone who admitted to the Canadian authorities there is child pron on her computer.

No one is mad at you. Literally. We are just pointing out this singular individual is a bad apple, making Trans people look bad, and Trump is being a major illegal asshole with his views.
Actually you kind of implied it when you said "Isn't Blair White that woman who is going around calling out Pedos using the trans identity to justify their actions?" That implies this is a common occurrence in the trans community. Since that statement it seems to mainly be aimed at a single jerk, this Yaniv person.
 

Saelune

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Shadowstar38 said:
Saelune said:
Go read it.
I know how to read. I already read it and re-read. I still disagree because you haven't convinced me of anything. Hence why I told you we're at an en pass. The fact that you keep telling me to go read it a gain is condescending. This is the thing I meant by needlessly combative.
Condescending!? Your false claim I am gaslighting is condescending! You're wrong, and being upset that you are wrong wont magically make you not wrong.
 

Shadowstar38

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Saelune said:
Condescending!? Your false claim I am gaslighting is condescending! You're wrong, and being upset that you are wrong wont magically make you not wrong.
Telling me I'm upset and I'm wrong doesn't magically make me upset or wrong so...checkmate atheiststhanks for the effort but no?
 

Saelune

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Shadowstar38 said:
Saelune said:
Condescending!? Your false claim I am gaslighting is condescending! You're wrong, and being upset that you are wrong wont magically make you not wrong.
Telling me I'm upset and I'm wrong doesn't magically make me upset or wrong so...checkmate atheiststhanks for the effort but no?
I know it doesn't. And it doesn't when you do it either. That's part of my point.
 

Shadowstar38

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Saelune said:
Shadowstar38 said:
Saelune said:
Condescending!? Your false claim I am gaslighting is condescending! You're wrong, and being upset that you are wrong wont magically make you not wrong.
Telling me I'm upset and I'm wrong doesn't magically make me upset or wrong so...checkmate atheiststhanks for the effort but no?
I know it doesn't. And it doesn't when you do it either. That's part of my point.
If you say so. Good talk.