[POLITICS] Two Mass Shootings in 15 Hours, and O'Rourke on Trump

[tstorm823]

Tstorm, what do you do for a living?

Currently, I do technical support and logistics for Surveying, GNSS, and other professional measuring equipment. Previous, I threw boxes around for UPS. In the future, I will be President of the United States.

If you're asking where my opinions of the ACA are drawn from, it's from a cast of reasonably close relatives that include 5 nurses, 3 pharmacists, and a doctor, who have some outspoken opinions on the efficacy of the insurance system as a form of healthcare coverage. The ACA mandated using that insurance system for healthcare, and then told the insurance companies that their profits are set proportional to how expensive the care is, and now mega-hospitals are getting even more extravagantly rich as middlemen are directly incentivized to give them more of the end consumers money. Believe it or not, Seanchaidh is almost talking sense when saying

Republicans and many Democrats are owned by the health insurance lobby.

Though I'm sure pursuing this line of conversation would lead directly to calls for communism, so I'm not particularly interested in that.

This is a position that you, as a conservative, damn well ought to consider the single most key policy issue moving into 2020. Miles above anything and everything else, given what's now known to be going on inside Google, Facebook, Twitter, and platform providers -- all private corporations -- like them.

I'm honestly not that worried about those corporations. I know a lot of conservatives are looking to push back against left-leaning companies, but the companies are not going to be able to lead the culture by a leash. Media corporations rely on an audience more than the other way around, and there's a lot indicating these companies are changing course to keep up with an increasingly conservative culture. A crazy thing happened recently: I saw ads on the Daily Wire's Youtube videos. I hadn't seen that in months, everything was demonetized. And now, it seems it isn't all demonetized. Because Google isn't trying to lead people, it's trying to follow them, wherever they may go. And anyone who doesn't follow won't be able to hold onto their monopoly.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Currently, I do technical support and logistics for Surveying, GNSS, and other professional measuring equipment. Previous, I threw boxes around for UPS. In the future, I will be President of the United States.

If you're asking where my opinions of the ACA are drawn from, it's from a cast of reasonably close relatives that include 5 nurses, 3 pharmacists, and a doctor, who have some outspoken opinions on the efficacy of the insurance system as a form of healthcare coverage. The ACA mandated using that insurance system for healthcare, and then told the insurance companies that their profits are set proportional to how expensive the care is, and now mega-hospitals are getting even more extravagantly rich as middlemen are directly incentivized to give them more of the end consumers money. Believe it or not, Seanchaidh is almost talking sense when saying

You got me. That's why I was asking.

Because I do Property and Casualty, Life Health and Accident Insurance Agent in New York state. Basically, I'm all the things. I also took my continuing education course in the beginning of the month.

Do you know why the efficacy of ACA is basically a band-aid on the problem? The Hospitals themselves.

Should we talk about the unnecessary tests that cost 200 billion Annually [https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/unnecessary-medical-tests-treatments-cost-200-billion-annually-cause-harm]? That year after year, we're paying higher medicine costs [https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-do-americans-pay-more-for-drugs-2019-04-24] than anywhere on this planet? Or how Hospitals are charging Patients for Increased CEO Salaries and for Lobbyists to keep the hospital system just as it is [https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2019/06/26/top-u-s-non-profit-hospitals-ceos-are-racking-up-huge-profits/#31c21aa419df]?

Can we talk about how we have the highest cost of Medical Procedures [https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-do-healthcare-prices-and-use-in-the-u-s-compare-to-other-countries/#item-start] but we don't even break the Top Ten of Best Healthcare systems in the world [http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/best-healthcare-in-the-world/]?

But people still get sick. They still need hospitals. But there are literally people who would try to tough it out because they don't think they can get out of the debt that getting treatment will cost them, because Hospital CEOs need those yearly raises!

ACA brought people from uninsured to underinsured. Some help. Which is definitely a step in the right direction. The "Cheaper cost" of AHCA would come from re-allowing pre-existing conditions that could basically have them look through your history with a fine tooth comb and say they don't have to pay your claim because if they have known that you had this condition before, they wouldn't have authorized the policy.

Bad but plentiful choices that can become null and void at the issuer's discretion helps no one.

Get more doctors, put limits on Hospital CEO's and the raises they give themselves, limit what pharmaceutical companies can charge for drugs, any of these things would actually help lower the cost of health care. And thereby, insurance.

This is a very apt statement to close this out on, but you can't ignore the disease and then be upset that the analgesics prescribed to quiet the symptoms isn't grape flavored. You treat the DISEASE, and you don't even need to take the analgesic.

 

[Saelune]

You keep making claims that are usually not true, like at all. If you expect me to believe them, you need to provide evidence. If you say 'Trump is a Democrat' when he is literally the leader of the Republican Party, well, that is beyond questionable. If you say a place where children are in squalid conditions, separated from family, and are dying is NOT a problem, well, that's a problem.

I say Trump is a Democrat because it's a lot more attention grabbing than "Donald Trump has a lot more in common with prominent Democratic politicians than he does with other registered Republicans, in both his rhetoric and his personal life, holds nearly all the same positions Democrats did 20 years ago (which in fairness is what totally ignorant people think Republicans are), and as recently as 2008 was a supporter of Hillary Clinton herself." But yes, he's registered as a Republican, but I'd rather you actually consider where his politics and behavior align with other American discourse rather than say "Trump = Republican = Evil!" and work backwards from there.

But like "this is an article about every child who died related to CBP custody [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children-dying-u-s-custody-n1010316]. We've discussed this article before. 1) Unaccompanied minor dies of the flu. 2) Girl dies of rapidly progressing virus while with her father before they even reach the CBP facility. 3) Illness likely contracted in CBP custody with mother, dies months later. 4) Almost exactly the same situation as 3. 5) Unaccompanied minor dies of flu despite treatment and hourly check-ins. 6) Dies with his father after being released to hospital, treated, and returned by the hospital. 7) Unaccompanied minor sent immediately to hospital because of congenital heart failure where they try for months to save her.

You'll notice something about these things: none of them were separated from family. The purpose of separating the kids was to get them out of squalid conditions. CBP stations are like police stations, they aren't meant to hold children, they're supposed to get the kids into acceptable child care within 72 hours. A child crosses the border and border patrol picks them up and holds them only until the can release them to an unincarcerated relative or the department of Housing and Human Services places them in appropriate care. They weren't taking kids from parents to stick them in rooms with concrete floors. They were taking kids from parents to get them out of the rooms with concrete floors.

See, this is the stuff that needs sufficient citation, cause it flies in the face of facts.

If Trump is like Democrats, why does the entirety of the Republican party defend and support him? Why hasn't Moscow Mitch turned on Trump? Why do Republicans keep voting in defense of what Trump wants? Why do Republicans keep praising and supporting him? Are you a Democrat? You are an unashamed Trump supporter. Do you not see how this is all absurd?


There should not be any unaccompanied minors dying of flu though. You want to excuse the deaths, but there should not be any deaths. If a white kid dies at their elementary school cause they had flu and were neglected, that would be unacceptable. The same is for these torture camps.

And ya know what else? Anti-Immgration people have no claim to giving a single fuck about these kids in the best of situations, cause they want those kids to be stuck in their shitty situation anyways. If they gave a single fuck about these kids, they wouldnt be anti-immigration to begin with. But thats about what you can expect from 'pro-lifers' who refuse to do anything more than force their birth. After that, they are on their own.

Republicans dont care about children's lives, in every sense of it. If they did, they would be pro-immigration, pro-socialism, pro-universial healthcare, pro-safe sex, pro-education, but they oppose (and proudly) all of those things.

 

[Saelune]

ACA is why my family wasn't billed $10,000 when I got a nasty stomach virus. Thanks Obama, genuinely, thanks.

 

[Schadrach]

ACA is why my family wasn't billed $10,000 when I got a nasty stomach virus. Thanks Obama, genuinely, thanks.

All I've gotten from it is going from a $180/m company plan to a $250/m (after the credit) marketplace plan with less coverage and worse copays. My employer also got touchier about hiring because we technically dropped below the "small business" mark which is what allowed them to drop health insurance in the first place. Thanks Obama!

To the point that we moved up the wedding because that will let me get on her insurance which will save us a ton of money. Less than 2 months out.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

All I've gotten from it is going from a $180/m company plan to a $250/m (after the credit) marketplace plan with less coverage and worse copays. My employer also got touchier about hiring because we technically dropped below the "small business" mark which is what allowed them to drop health insurance in the first place. Thanks Obama!

Funny, it was under Trump that my county decided that having a wife should cost you 500$ more a month in insurance coverage....

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Republicans calling each other RINOs is not comparable to Democrats calling Republicans Hitler.

People ask me, which is the bigger threat to the nation, the liberals or the RINO's. Frankley, I think it's the RINOs

their interest is in making people think Republicans want everyone to get sick and die.

When I get told it's in my best interest to keep paying 900 dollars for an ambulance ride for 5 miles, no medication, no equipment used, then YES, I can easily buy that Republicans health care plan is "don't get sick".

I say Trump is a Democrat because it's a lot more attention grabbing than "Donald Trump has a lot more in common with prominent Democratic politicians than he does with other registered Republicans, in both his rhetoric and his personal life, holds nearly all the same positions Democrats did 20 years ago (which in fairness is what totally ignorant people think Republicans are), and as recently as 2008 was a supporter of Hillary Clinton herself." But yes, he's registered as a Republican, but I'd rather you actually consider where his politics and behavior align with other American discourse rather than say "Trump = Republican = Evil!" and work backwards from there.

You first, cowboy. If conservatives won't give me the consideration outside of "Anti-Trump=Communist Antifa Muslim apologist", why should I do different?

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

He does use less diplomatic language, he does act less reasonable, he does demonize segments of the population. But ultimately, that's my point.That's what Democrats sound like.

Before I bomb this joint with multiple sound clips, I'm going to ask if you stand by this notion that conservatives do not demonize parts of the population.

 

[Saelune]

ACA is why my family wasn't billed $10,000 when I got a nasty stomach virus. Thanks Obama, genuinely, thanks.

All I've gotten from it is going from a $180/m company plan to a $250/m (after the credit) marketplace plan with less coverage and worse copays. My employer also got touchier about hiring because we technically dropped below the "small business" mark which is what allowed them to drop health insurance in the first place. Thanks Obama!

To the point that we moved up the wedding because that will let me get on her insurance which will save us a ton of money. Less than 2 months out.

Did you suddenly get so sick you literally, yes literally, thought you were going to die? Cause I did. But you're clearly missing the entire point of health insurance and universal healthcare anyways. Do you get mad that cars have seatbelts even though you never crash?

You would be singing a different tune if you had sudden medical bills you couldnt afford.

 

[Shadowstar38]

ACA is why my family wasn't billed $10,000 when I got a nasty stomach virus. Thanks Obama, genuinely, thanks.

All I've gotten from it is going from a $180/m company plan to a $250/m (after the credit) marketplace plan with less coverage and worse copays. My employer also got touchier about hiring because we technically dropped below the "small business" mark which is what allowed them to drop health insurance in the first place. Thanks Obama!

To the point that we moved up the wedding because that will let me get on her insurance which will save us a ton of money. Less than 2 months out.

Did you suddenly get so sick you literally, yes literally, thought you were going to die? Cause I did. But you're clearly missing the entire point of health insurance and universal healthcare anyways. Do you get mad that cars have seatbelts even though you never crash?

You would be singing a different tune if you had sudden medical bills you couldnt afford.

Healthcare being a good idea in general doesn't really equate to the ACA as a bill on its own being an effective means to handle it. I hear cases of it fucking people over just as often as I hear cases of it helping. But really, its all anecdotal.

 

[Saelune]

ACA is why my family wasn't billed $10,000 when I got a nasty stomach virus. Thanks Obama, genuinely, thanks.

All I've gotten from it is going from a $180/m company plan to a $250/m (after the credit) marketplace plan with less coverage and worse copays. My employer also got touchier about hiring because we technically dropped below the "small business" mark which is what allowed them to drop health insurance in the first place. Thanks Obama!

To the point that we moved up the wedding because that will let me get on her insurance which will save us a ton of money. Less than 2 months out.

Did you suddenly get so sick you literally, yes literally, thought you were going to die? Cause I did. But you're clearly missing the entire point of health insurance and universal healthcare anyways. Do you get mad that cars have seatbelts even though you never crash?

You would be singing a different tune if you had sudden medical bills you couldnt afford.

Healthcare being a good idea in general doesn't really equate to the ACA as a bill on its own being an effective means to handle it. I hear cases of it fucking people over just as often as I hear cases of it helping. But really, its all anecdotal.

It mostly 'fucks over' people who don't understand how any of this works. ACA was a transitionary thing anyways, or it was supposed to be. It was meant as a compromise with Republicans, but instead is Exhibit A in why compromise with Republicans was a bad idea.

 

[Agema]

Yes, that is what I'm suggesting. I'm also suggesting they could have made things better. They have no interest in making things better, their interest is in making people think Republicans want everyone to get sick and die.

Look, Republicans have had a zillion chances to do something about healthcare over the years, and they've done precisely nothing. They only even talked about it when the Democrats tried to seriously get something done. Then eventually the ACA arrived. This was a conservative-originated plan, but what happened when it was put before the Republicans? They resisted it to the max.

The Republicans have zero credibility on healthcare beyond letting those with the means have it and the poorer third of the county not. None of their behaviour for decades supports any notion otherwise.

The Democrats, given an option to provide greater healthcare access, took it. Since then, the Republicans haven't come up with a single useful idea to make the system better, or if they have they've left it in a policy document at the bottom of dusty drawer. Even when they had a Republican president and majorities in both houses of Congress, they did nothing.

It is not credible to blame the Democrats for the actions and inactions of Republicans. In fact, it's utterly ridiculous.

This seems to me nothing more than the weakest possible attempt to excuse the Republicans. Trump's a terrible president, but he's a Republican president, voted for by Republicans, representing Republicans. You have to own that. Not find far-fetched, fanciful ideas, hammering a square peg into a round hole, to resolve the cognitive pain of your party's president being so awful.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Though I'm sure pursuing this line of conversation would lead directly to calls for communism, so I'm not particularly interested in that.

It would be ad consequentiam if you're letting that determine your perception of what is legislatively possible.

 

[Schadrach]

Funny, it was under Trump that my county decided that having a wife should cost you 500$ more a month in insurance coverage....

In my case, she works for the state, and the state has great (and cheap!) insurance. "Family" coverage on the state employee insurance is actually cheaper than what I'm paying for just me from the marketplace.

Did you suddenly get so sick you literally, yes literally, thought you were going to die? Cause I did.

No, instead I was diagnosed with a chronic condition as a preteen that requires daily injected medication. It will also shorten my lifespan a bit and cause a bunch of complications when I get older, but I'm doing fairly well with it so far.

Aside from that, I'm surprisingly healthy.

But you're clearly missing the entire point of health insurance and universal healthcare anyways. Do you get mad that cars have seatbelts even though you never crash?

Oh, no, you misunderstand. I've had health insurance my entire life, and learned how important it was when I was a kid. Health insurance is something I'm constantly worried about losing in the future.

I fully support universal healthcare. I don't support the ACA so much, because it's what healthcare reform looks like when you let the healthcare industry design it. It's one of those things where at best you could say that it was a good idea, badly implemented. It really does need a "repeal and replace" type solution, but not one I'd trust the current President or Congress with doing right, at all.

You would be singing a different tune if you had sudden medical bills you couldnt afford.

I don't have sudden medical bills I can't afford, I have constant medical bills I couldn't afford without insurance.

 

[Silvanus]

I'm not sure why you're still insistent on this. You seem to think a paragraph that says "those who identify as progressive may do so for a variety of reasons" contradicts the person who tells you that a variety of policies can be progressive.

No, I obviously don't think that sentence contradicts you, because it's a meaninglessly vague sentence you've taken out of context.

You may as well do the same for any sentence which is technically true but so broad as to be meaningless on its own-- "Reptilia covers many different animal species" does not indicate that dogs are reptiles, for instance.

You've just taken the vaguest sentences possible and dragged them out of context, because its convenient.

 

[Avnger]

I'm not sure why you're still insistent on this. You seem to think a paragraph that says "those who identify as progressive may do so for a variety of reasons" contradicts the person who tells you that a variety of policies can be progressive.

No, I obviously don't think that sentence contradicts you, because it's a meaninglessly vague sentence you've taken out of context.

You may as well do the same for any sentence which is technically true but so broad as to be meaningless on its own-- "Reptilia covers many different animal species" does not indicate that dogs are reptiles, for instance.

You've just taken the vaguest sentences possible and dragged them out of context, because its convenient.

This is a constant theme when you listen apologists for Trump and modern conservative .

 

[Saelune]

Funny, it was under Trump that my county decided that having a wife should cost you 500$ more a month in insurance coverage....

In my case, she works for the state, and the state has great (and cheap!) insurance. "Family" coverage on the state employee insurance is actually cheaper than what I'm paying for just me from the marketplace.

Did you suddenly get so sick you literally, yes literally, thought you were going to die? Cause I did.

No, instead I was diagnosed with a chronic condition as a preteen that requires daily injected medication. It will also shorten my lifespan a bit and cause a bunch of complications when I get older, but I'm doing fairly well with it so far.

Aside from that, I'm surprisingly healthy.

But you're clearly missing the entire point of health insurance and universal healthcare anyways. Do you get mad that cars have seatbelts even though you never crash?

Oh, no, you misunderstand. I've had health insurance my entire life, and learned how important it was when I was a kid. Health insurance is something I'm constantly worried about losing in the future.

I fully support universal healthcare. I don't support the ACA so much, because it's what healthcare reform looks like when you let the healthcare industry design it. It's one of those things where at best you could say that it was a good idea, badly implemented. It really does need a "repeal and replace" type solution, but not one I'd trust the current President or Congress with doing right, at all.

You would be singing a different tune if you had sudden medical bills you couldnt afford.

I don't have sudden medical bills I can't afford, I have constant medical bills I couldn't afford without insurance.

Heres the thing, how is the other way any better? How? That's what makes any criticism of ACA not make sense, because the other way is worse, unless you are rich. ACA is the option between 'All' and 'Nothing'. And as long as Republicans are part of the government, that's the best we could hope for. Republicans will never support better healthcare, and their whole plan was to sabotage good healthcare and then blame Democrats for the damage Republicans did to it!

 

[Baffle]

Remind me again why the NHS isn't great?

I don't even think about whether I'm going to get ill or what I'll do if it happens. I just pop along to the doctor (though sometimes you have to shove some old people out the way, they're in there all the time).

?7.30 for a prescription is a bit fucking steep though.

 

[Majestic Manatee_v1legacy]

 

[Agema]

Heres the thing, how is the other way any better? How? That's what makes any criticism of ACA not make sense, because the other way is worse, unless you are rich. ACA is the option between 'All' and 'Nothing'. And as long as Republicans are part of the government, that's the best we could hope for. Republicans will never support better healthcare, and their whole plan was to sabotage good healthcare and then blame Democrats for the damage Republicans did to it!

It's perfectly reasonable to point out the ACA is at least partly a botch job, especially for those whose bills went up.

Outside those earning a lot (where "affordable" isn't a meaningful concern), making healthcare more affordable really should make healthcare more affordable - for everyone. Making healthcare more affordable for 50% of the population but less affordable for 10% might be an improvement for the country as a whole, but it really has failed some when it ideally shouldn't have.