[Politics] UK Suspends Parliament

The Rogue Wolf

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A hard border in Ireland? Hey, it's not like anything bad happened the last time that was the case, right?

Dreiko said:
I dunno, if you care about democracy, wouldn't you want the result of referendums to be upheld though? It's kinda ironic to me that people who ask to ignore democracy and do a second referendum because they lost the first now are all pro-democracy all of a sudden.
Weren't there a number of referendums beforehand where leaving lost? You can't just keep having votes until you win and then declare it done.
 

CM156_v1legacy

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I've got associates in a few British Overseas Territories (Gibraltar, the Falklands) and they have expressed concern with the whole Brexit process and what that means for their access to the European market. Both have to deal with bad neighbors of varying degrees and have economies that are dependent on the European market.


The Rogue Wolf said:
A hard border in Ireland? Hey, it's not like anything bad happened the last time that was the case, right?
Yeah, oof.
 

Trunkage

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The Rogue Wolf said:
A hard border in Ireland? Hey, it's not like anything bad happened the last time that was the case, right?

Dreiko said:
I dunno, if you care about democracy, wouldn't you want the result of referendums to be upheld though? It's kinda ironic to me that people who ask to ignore democracy and do a second referendum because they lost the first now are all pro-democracy all of a sudden.
Weren't there a number of referendums beforehand where leaving lost? You can't just keep having votes until you win and then declare it done.
I'd also point out how Major got into power, becuase Britian saw not being (partially) in the EU as a bad thing. They also didn't go balls deep into it either. So...

Also, can anyone explain to me how Britian will maintain their borders if they don't have a hard border in Ireland. They keep talking about refugees getting into Britian/ or being forced into them by the EU. If there is no hard border, refugees will just walk across into Northern Ireland. Which means the 'problem' isn't solved.
 

Silvanus

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Beforehand, so many senior Conservatives explicitly stated that to suspend Parliament at this time would be unthinkable, undemocratic, an outrage, etc.

Matt Hancock, Michael Gove, Amber Rudd, Sajid Javid. All absolutely explicit on that.

Now its happened, now their own party has done so, they've changed tune immediately. Started dismissing concerns about it. Mere days or weeks later.

Disgusting, careerist, conniving, lying hypocrites, without a principled bone in their bodies. Every time I think the Conservative Party cannot sink any lower, they somehow manage.
 

Agema

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Silvanus said:
Beforehand, so many senior Conservatives explicitly stated that to suspend Parliament at this time would be unthinkable, undemocratic, an outrage, etc.

Matt Hancock, Michael Gove, Amber Rudd, Sajid Javid. All absolutely explicit on that.

Now its happened, now their own party has done so, they've changed tune immediately. Started dismissing concerns about it. Mere days or weeks later.

Disgusting, careerist, conniving, lying hypocrites, without a principled bone in their bodies. Every time I think the Conservative Party cannot sink any lower, they somehow manage.
Yeah, virtually all these shitbags said we'd never leave without a deal, and the deal would involve a pretty close relationship, and it's funny how all that's melted away and turned into "Hell yeah, let's no deal!"
 

Hades

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So what about emergency meetings of parliament? Would Bercow theoretically have the power to call for emergency sessions of parliament? And could he theoretically plan all those emergency sessions when parliament is on vacation/suspended.
 

skywolfblue

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evilthecat said:
It is very clear that most people who voted for Brexit did not vote for a Brexit which might have negative consequences for them or their families, they voted for a Brexit which was going to be economically beneficial and politically smooth, and that is not what we are going to get. At the same time, most politicians seem to have accepted the reality that due to the referendum Brexit needs to happen, and the political debate has now moved on to what kind of Brexit can be achieved which will be acceptable and do minimal harm to the country. It is only recently, when it has become clear that it is a choice between no deal or a bad deal, that the thought of a second referendum or delaying Brexit has been on the parliamentary table.
This. I think most people who voted for Brexit wanted some kind of stable transition, not no-deal Brexit. No deal brexit is the worst possible outcome.

The Rogue Wolf said:
A hard border in Ireland? Hey, it's not like anything bad happened the last time that was the case, right?
Boris will build a wall! That will work great, because it's working so well in the US under Trump! /s
 

Kwak

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Why aren't they vote of no confidence-ing Boris like they did with Theresa? Isn't that what they're supposed to do when the PM does something outrageously stupid?
 

warmachine

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Kwak said:
Why aren't they vote of no confidence-ing Boris like they did with Theresa? Isn't that what they're supposed to do when the PM does something outrageously stupid?
Alas, the opposition and Tory rebels can't decide who should replace Johnson. Leader of the largest opposing party, Corbyn, is the normal choice but Tories really hate Corbyn. An experienced statesman who'll quit at the next election can do it but Corbyn insists it must be him as he doesn't want to set a precedent for him stepping aside from important positions. Yep, that's fucked up.
 

Anti-American Eagle

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And even less is accomplished this time. Can we just get this shit over with? It's been how many years at this point?
 
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Dreiko said:
I dunno, if you care about democracy, wouldn't you want the result of referendums to be upheld though? It's kinda ironic to me that people who ask to ignore democracy and do a second referendum because they lost the first now are all pro-democracy all of a sudden.

If anything, this is preserving democracy by safeguarding the implementation of a democratic referendum's result.
Well A) The referendum only offered a binary Leave/Remain option, the winning option of which we are now getting. We just want a voice in how that winning option pans out. Which would be democracy in action really despite what certain people try to play it off as.
And B) If you want to play that card, we already had a vote where we opted to join the EU in the first place so this referendum you think is so sacrosanct is already people who lost demanding a second go to get their way. Surely if you actually held the principles you say you hold you should be just as against the referendum as you are against what you see as attempts to stop the referendum?
 

Baffle

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Anti-American Eagle said:
And even less is accomplished this time. Can we just get this shit over with? It's been how many years at this point?
Three, though it was always expected to be at least two I think.

People just still don't realise they can't have their cake and eat it too. Except for people like Johnson, funnily enough, who have fucking tons of cake in the cupboard already and won't be affected by a sudden lack of cake.
 

Silvanus

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Kwak said:
Why aren't they vote of no confidence-ing Boris like they did with Theresa? Isn't that what they're supposed to do when the PM does something outrageously stupid?
Most Conservative MPs would vote with the government, because they'd rather be in power with a no-deal Brexit than out of power in any circumstance.
 

Thaluikhain

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I shouldn't be surprised at people still defending the damn thing and the damn people behind it, but it still seems odd.

From an Australian perspective, am curious to see if the UK has to make new trade deals with Australia, and whether UK-ers flee the country and come here.
 

Seanchaidh

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Silvanus said:
Kwak said:
Why aren't they vote of no confidence-ing Boris like they did with Theresa? Isn't that what they're supposed to do when the PM does something outrageously stupid?
Most Conservative MPs would vote with the government, because they'd rather be in power with a no-deal Brexit than out of power in any circumstance.
They'd probably be OK with another one like Tony Blair as PM, though, no?
 

Agema

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Thaluikhain said:
From an Australian perspective, am curious to see if the UK has to make new trade deals with Australia, and whether UK-ers flee the country and come here.
Yes, I've been getting a lot of Facebook ads saying things like "You're well educated, fancy working in ? We can help!" The brain drain is being anticipated and the sharks are already circling.

The UK will definitely need a new trade deal with Aus, and will probably sort one fairly quickly. But what the fuck are the UK and Australia going to trade? It's 10,000 miles distance. UK-Australian trade is good given that distance, but it's still minor league for either, and it's not like the freest of free trade deal is suddenly going to change that.

warmachine said:
...but Corbyn insists it must be him as he doesn't want to set a precedent for him stepping aside from important positions.
Which is ironic considering whenever something important seems to need to be done in the Labour Party, he's nowhere to be found.
 

Silvanus

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Seanchaidh said:
They'd probably be OK with another one like Tony Blair as PM, though, no?
I'm not too sure. Conservative Party ministers tend to treat it as a vehicle for their own careers, so while a Blairite/ "Third Way" Labour PM might not be very distinct from a Conservative politically, I anticipate they'd fight it tooth and nail all the same. If Labour is in power in any form, their careers aren't moving up, and that's all most of them care about.

Ed Miliband was pretty damn "centrist" by modern British standards, and the tabloids & Conservative Party still campaigned against him on the basis that he was "radical left".
 

Baffle

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Silvanus said:
Ed Miliband was pretty damn "centrist" by modern British standards, and the tabloids & Conservative Party still campaigned against him on the basis that he was "radical left".
And of course that he couldn't eat a bacon sandwich properly. Which is weird, because being vegan would've made him even more evil.
 

Seanchaidh

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This seems to sum up the contrast between 2016 expectations and 2019 probabilities. No, getting stuck on a 2016 referendum isn't more democratic than any other option.

[tweet t="https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1167771544363393025"]

Baffle2 said:
Silvanus said:
Ed Miliband was pretty damn "centrist" by modern British standards, and the tabloids & Conservative Party still campaigned against him on the basis that he was "radical left".
And of course that he couldn't eat a bacon sandwich properly. Which is weird, because being vegan would've made him even more evil.
It's the perfect attack, really. Some object to eating it at all, and a whole different set of people object to eating it poorly.

Silvanus said:
Seanchaidh said:
They'd probably be OK with another one like Tony Blair as PM, though, no?
I'm not too sure. Conservative Party ministers tend to treat it as a vehicle for their own careers, so while a Blairite/ "Third Way" Labour PM might not be very distinct from a Conservative politically, I anticipate they'd fight it tooth and nail all the same. If Labour is in power in any form, their careers aren't moving up, and that's all most of them care about.

Ed Miliband was pretty damn "centrist" by modern British standards, and the tabloids & Conservative Party still campaigned against him on the basis that he was "radical left".
That makes sense. May as well hold out for Corbyn anyway, in my view.
 

Agema

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Seanchaidh said:
They'd probably be OK with another one like Tony Blair as PM, though, no?
I think it's fair to say many Tory MPs would be more inclined to rebel if it weren't for Corbyn. It is hard to underestimate just how much of a turn-off Corbyn is for a large number of Britons, particularly those on the right.

I think a lot of them might swallow someone with similar policies, just one that didn't have the same historical baggage and dodgy associations.